Knicks · Espn says we're targeting Jrue Holiday (page 2)

I rather draft Frank Ntilikina and look for a veteran point guard in free agency who is happy playing a mentor role to Frank, Ron and Chasson. Maybe Pat Mills from San Antonio.

Assuming we don't draft top 6

Maybe get Frank at 8 or lower
Sign Mills for 8-10 $M a year
Keep Baker and Randle
Sign a defensive wing like PJ Tucker
Re-sign Holiday if money is right

Hernangomez/OQuinn
Porzingis/Thomas
Melo/Tucker
Lee/Holiday
Mills/Ntilikina

Depth:
Noah
Kuz
Baker
Randle

Why with this even be put out there in march when you have a current pg who states his first priority is re-signing with the knicks, even if you have no plans to do so, it just shows the loyalty the current regime has.

It's bad for business..

BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is this Phil throwing espn a bone so they can get off our backs like a poster mentioned here the other day?

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Jrue....he can play, just seems slow to me

I wouldn't call him slow, but deliberate. He's guy that has learned to use his advantages on the offensive end. He's not a Derrick Rose, John Wall speedster type. More like Derrick Harper back in the day. But I wonder about his defense. People rave about it, but most of the advanced stats don't really back it up. Keep in mind the guys he plays against in the West, tho.

I see Derek Harper too but Harper was more decisive, assertive and nasty. Jrue is more deliberate like you say and unassuming... doesn't really attack the game but he does see the floor well. If he ever loses a step he's going to be a turtle.

knicks1248 wrote:Why with this even be put out there in march when you have a current pg who states his first priority is re-signing with the knicks, even if you have no plans to do so, it just shows the loyalty the current regime has.

It's bad for business..

That's that's drama for no reason. Rose doesn't fit. So are you saying we have to resign him to show loyalty? So Phil is an idiot if we don't resign him and if we resign him? I mean when does this witch hunt stop?

One thing the KP draft taught me- we need to go for best talent available NOT best PG available in the draft- in 2015 I was tempted to pick Mudiay to finally fix our PG woes because he was the best pg available- glad we went with KP instead. If Isaac can play alongside KP, then I'm happy to pick him over a pg if he is the better talent (which I don't think he is, just using him as an example).

y2zipper wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is this Phil throwing espn a bone so they can get off our backs like a poster mentioned here the other day?

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Jrue....he can play, just seems slow to me

I wouldn't call him slow, but deliberate. He's guy that has learned to use his advantages on the offensive end. He's not a Derrick Rose, John Wall speedster type. More like Derrick Harper back in the day. But I wonder about his defense. People rave about it, but most of the advanced stats don't really back it up. Keep in mind the guys he plays against in the West, tho.

Every advanced stat I could find backs up the idea that he's one of the best defensive point guards in the league.

I think age and ability-wise this is probably a player I'd offer the max to. Yeah, health issues but he is only 26.

I think they show he's OK, but I hear the words elite and excellent thrown around quite a bit.

EnySpree wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is this Phil throwing espn a bone so they can get off our backs like a poster mentioned here the other day?

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Jrue....he can play, just seems slow to me

I wouldn't call him slow, but deliberate. He's guy that has learned to use his advantages on the offensive end. He's not a Derrick Rose, John Wall speedster type. More like Derrick Harper back in the day. But I wonder about his defense. People rave about it, but most of the advanced stats don't really back it up. Keep in mind the guys he plays against in the West, tho.

I see Derek Harper too but Harper was more decisive, assertive and nasty. Jrue is more deliberate like you say and unassuming... doesn't really attack the game but he does see the floor well. If he ever loses a step he's going to be a turtle.

Yeah, I can see that. The one thing he has going for him is size tho. Big point guards like Mark Jackson, Kidd, Billups and Payton can usually squeeze out a few more years. Of course, the dropoff is as bad when you're already performing at the high est level. Holiday is operating at a solid level.

I don't want the Knicks to go this route anymore. I don't believe in any FA that comes to the Knicks. I don't believe most trades either. Just want to get players through the draft besides the Knicks window of championship is closed for another 3-4 years why even bother, enough with the bandaid approach.

EnySpree wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Why with this even be put out there in march when you have a current pg who states his first priority is re-signing with the knicks, even if you have no plans to do so, it just shows the loyalty the current regime has.

It's bad for business..

That's that's drama for no reason. Rose doesn't fit. So are you saying we have to resign him to show loyalty? So Phil is an idiot if we don't resign him and if we resign him? I mean when does this witch hunt stop?

Where did I say in that statement that we need to resign him. Phil's plan is to bring in non triangle players and hope they can convert, and when it doesn't work, guys like you blame the players.

If you gave me a job painting cars because I could drive my ass off, and I do a horrible job, and fck every car I paint, who's the ass me for not knowing how to do it right, or you for hiring me in the first place with little to no experience

Vmart wrote:I don't want the Knicks to go this route anymore. I don't believe in any FA that comes to the Knicks. I don't believe most trades either. Just want to get players through the draft besides the Knicks window of championship is closed for another 3-4 years why even bother, enough with the bandaid approach.

I agree- use the draft for adding top tier talent, use cap space for facilitating trades in exchange for picks and for signing good role players on affordable contracts.

Take away Noah, and we're actually doing well with regards to affordable role players- next year we have (remember $8.5mil is the MLE next season):

Lee- $11.7mil
Lance- $6.6mil
KOQ- $4mil
Kuz- $3mil
Willy- $1.4mil
Plumlee- $0.9mil
Randle- $0.3mil
Baker- $0.3mil

KP- $4mil

If we can move Melo in the offseason (say, adding Rivers for $10mil per), our cap situation is actually pretty good, except for Noah.

smackeddog wrote:One thing the KP draft taught me- we need to go for best talent available NOT best PG available in the draft- in 2015 I was tempted to pick Mudiay to finally fix our PG woes because he was the best pg available- glad we went with KP instead. If Isaac can play alongside KP, then I'm happy to pick him over a pg if he is the better talent (which I don't think he is, just using him as an example).

exhibit A: Jordan draft. Trailblazers picked Bowie (need, not BPA) because they already had Clyde. Dooh!

Chandler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:One thing the KP draft taught me- we need to go for best talent available NOT best PG available in the draft- in 2015 I was tempted to pick Mudiay to finally fix our PG woes because he was the best pg available- glad we went with KP instead. If Isaac can play alongside KP, then I'm happy to pick him over a pg if he is the better talent (which I don't think he is, just using him as an example).

exhibit A: Jordan draft. Trailblazers picked Bowie (need, not BPA) because they already had Clyde. Dooh!

The funny thing is Houston who pick Olajuwon already had a center in Sampson.

You want to pay Derek Harper 25 million a year?

BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is this Phil throwing espn a bone so they can get off our backs like a poster mentioned here the other day?

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Jrue....he can play, just seems slow to me

I wouldn't call him slow, but deliberate. He's guy that has learned to use his advantages on the offensive end. He's not a Derrick Rose, John Wall speedster type. More like Derrick Harper back in the day. But I wonder about his defense. People rave about it, but most of the advanced stats don't really back it up. Keep in mind the guys he plays against in the West, tho.

You take the best player at the 1 2 or 3 if we take another front court player in a guard-centric league Im going to lose my s+++

smackeddog wrote:One thing the KP draft taught me- we need to go for best talent available NOT best PG available in the draft- in 2015 I was tempted to pick Mudiay to finally fix our PG woes because he was the best pg available- glad we went with KP instead. If Isaac can play alongside KP, then I'm happy to pick him over a pg if he is the better talent (which I don't think he is, just using him as an example).

nice underrated player who loves new orleans. do you think he would want to join the knicks franchise?

Jmpasq wrote:You want to pay Derek Harper 25 million a year?

BigDaddyG wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Is this Phil throwing espn a bone so they can get off our backs like a poster mentioned here the other day?

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Jrue....he can play, just seems slow to me

I wouldn't call him slow, but deliberate. He's guy that has learned to use his advantages on the offensive end. He's not a Derrick Rose, John Wall speedster type. More like Derrick Harper back in the day. But I wonder about his defense. People rave about it, but most of the advanced stats don't really back it up. Keep in mind the guys he plays against in the West, tho.

I haven't made up my mind up one way or the other. But yeah, Harper was a max contract player at the same age. I'd argue Harper was a bit better, but the market is what it is.

Jrue Holiday and Justin Holiday are both free agents this offseason and they have interest in playing on the same team.

“If we can play together, that would be a dream come true and we’d be successful doing it,’’ Justin Holiday told The Post on Friday. “We both want to win and both know each other’s game in and out. We both know what we’re going to get from each other when we play together. It just makes sense.

“I’m not saying just because he’s my brother,’’ Holiday added. “But I know when we play together, good things happen because we know each other’s game so well. We do play hard on both ends of the floor. When you have that at both positions, it’s going to help.”

Justin Holiday is 14 months older than Jrue Holiday.

“The best thing for me now is not to stress too much about [free agency],’’ Holiday said. “But as far as playing with my brother goes, it’s obviously a dream of ours.”

The New York Knicks figure to have approximately $25 million in cap space.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/245...

I think there's more of a chance that Justin tries going to Pelicans (though we own his early bird rights) than Jrue coming here, but I have one question- how when you have a front line of Davis and Cousins, does your starting PG end up with just 5 assists and 4 TOs? In fact his assit and TOs have been terrible since the trade. He's a turnover machine and his 3pt shooting varies widely from month to month.

Would rather have George Hill (don't care he's a few years older) who is a complete a point guard.
He is also the prototypical triangle guard and would form a nice backcourt with his another Indianapolis guy, C. Lee.

If you look at it from a talent perspective.

Rose is a free agent. We have his bird rights.
We would have a MLE if we used Rose's bird rights to re-sign him. That's nearly Courtney Lee money.
We have early bird rights on Holiday. That's about the MLE money level as well.
We have a lottery pick coming. Draft best player available, lets say we do well enough to get someone who can atleast be a rotation player.

We would have added a lottery pick to the rotation, and likely a MLE level player to the rotation. That's two changes. I have no clue who or what positions those players would be at (I am hoping it is perimeter help at 3/2/1 because that is where we need it most). But lets say we do that, talent wise we only upgrade if we keep Rose on top of that. We would hve added 2 new pieces to the rotation while keeping the same talent in Rose, Melo, KP.

Now the chemistry has to be changed and how they play, so you then trade Melo. However we have a 18 points/5 assists a night driving PG that looks interesting in staying. It won't be easy for us to get replacements. If Rose is willing to stay on his current salary (22$M a year) I think I seriously have to consider it if I'm the Knicks. We won't be getting Chris Paul. We won't be getting Curry. If Rose is willing to do a 3 year deal with a 4th year player option, I am leaning towards keeping him. I think we can eventually trade him. What we don't want to do is lose an asset we traded away a starting C on a good contract (RoLo) and a draft pick (THJ or Grant) for nothing. I think Rose has proven he can stay healthy and he can still play. We will not find better than Rose. His attitude was questionable, and he's a bit of a headcase. I am not even coming close to 150/5 type of money. However I think I would do $90M-4 years if the 4th year is a team option. Knicks aren't in a pretty position. They can not draw talent easily.

Additionally, if we keep Rose, if we are able to draft a prospect in the lottery at the wing, I move Melo. I re-build the team to be younger, with the oldest starter being Rose, a 28 year old. I think we can do this, and Rose's play has shown me he is far less of a ball stopper than Melo, and that he is far more committed to winning. You don't see Rose smile and laugh when the team loses. You see he hates it. If we don't draft a PG prospect and trading Melo is an option and then Rose is willing to stay at current salary, I think I'm leaning towards keeping Rose. We shouldn't act like 18/5 PG's who can drive like Rose grow on trees. He's shown some progress in his play. He has shown better defensive effort and also better recognition of the open man.

I just don't think the Knicks are in a position to be picky about free agents. Rose is the most likely free agent they can get at the point guard position because he wants to stay (apparently). I won't be upset if he walks, but I wouldn't be upset if he stayed. They keep Rose, add a MLE player, add a lottery talent, now you have not lowered your talent level. You're the same team as this year talent wise (which was quite good based on talent) only with 2 new additions with the MLE and lottery pick. You then make a Melo trade. If you don't or can't trade Melo, you look at other areas you can improve on through trade. With Lee, O'Quinn, Thomas, we have some tradable pieces.

TLover wrote:Would rather have George Hill (don't care he's a few years older) who is a complete a point guard.
He is also the prototypical triangle guard and would form a nice backcourt with his another Indianapolis guy, C. Lee.

I wanted G.Hill pretty bad as well but he's supposedly looking for a max deal which is ridiculous but the prices of many players is getting ridiculous. G.Hill has size, good offense and plays really good defense but max, or even near max....not so sure on that one and we're only gonna have around $24 mil to spend.