Knicks · Phil evaluating roster based on Triangle fit! (page 1)

https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbssports...

So Noah gets max and extension.
Sasha gets 4 year deal.
LT will get a few Mil bonus.

Championship here we come. Doesn't seem like Uncle Phil will ever realize that two of the best players of all time brought him his rings. Not the Triangle. And definitely not his ability to evaluate talent.

I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...

For whatever reason, Phil Jackson (don't bother trying to get answers from him) deviated from the triangle last summer when he hired Jeff Hornacek and acquired ball-dominant point guards Derrick Rose and Brandon Jennings.

It jolted the Knicks for a little while, with a faster-paced offense that was heavier on pick and rolls. But like mostly everything the Knicks have attempted over the last 15 years, the direction veered into tire fire.

So it's back to Square One. Or should we say, Triangle One.

Jeff Hornacek confirmed Tuesday that management is using the remaining months to evaluate who fits the system, which has been re-emphasized as more of a traditional triangle since the All-Star break. Hornacek even made it sound like they were placing players into two different hats: the triangle yays, and the triangle nays.

Larry Brown: Knicks prez should coach if he really wants triangle
"As time goes on, you say can they get it? Are they getting better at it? If they're not, you go, OK," Hornacek said. "End of the year comes and we're having our discussions and you say, 'Can this guy play this offense? We'll say either yay or nay or he's getting it, he's getting better. So I'm sure that's part of evaluations this summer."

If this sounds familiar, it's because Kurt Rambis said the exact same thing last season in April as interim coach — "The decision with management is to get players who fit into the system." It's backwards logic in a league where star power is paramount, but the Knicks haven't tried to fit into any standard-functioning box. Only a triangular prism.

All this leads to the following pressing questions: Is it undermining Hornacek? What free agents want to play in a system that has been widely deemed outdated? How long does Jackson, who has an opt-out clause in his contract after this season, plan to stick around to see this through considering he's 71 years old and already entering his third rebuild?

Larry Brown, who coached for a long time against Jackson's triangle, thinks his former counterpart should either stop forcing the system on Hornacek or coach the Knicks himself.

Phil Jackson's resume looking worse by the day
"I can't figure out how you can hire a coach and tell him how you want him to play," Brown told Sirius XM NBA Radio on Tuesday. "I can't figure out how you can draft players for a coach that you know coaches a certain a style, and was successful doing that style, and get him to play a style that you feel comfortable with. Then you coach. You're talking about one of the greatest coaches in the history of our sport. Let him coach. If he wants to do the triangle, put it in and let him coach it, and then teach everybody around and get the players who are comfortable playing it."

Since being triangle-inclined is the criteria, it's safe to say Rose does not have a future with the Knicks. He'd need to be waived by the deadline Wednesday if Rose wanted to join a playoff roster, but there were no indications they were going that route. Jennings, another point guard who is triangle averse, was waived Monday and Kristaps Porzingis called his former teammate unhappy.

"You could tell that he wasn't himself lately so that's probably the best thing for him," Porzingis said. "Because he loves basketball, he loves playing basketball, he wasn't happy here."

The Knicks hope to cultivate undrafted rookies Chasson Randle and Ron Baker as triangle point guards. Porzingis remains the franchise cornerstone, and there's a deep draft upcoming. Then there's Carmelo Anthony, who refuses to even use the word “triangle,” and who reiterated that he's prioritizing his family when deciding whether to waive his no-trade clause.

Jeff Hornacek needs to reshape Knicks’ triangle to fit Rose
"Family of course is No. 1 regardless of what situation you're in or what genre you're in. Family comes first," Anthony said. "Championship is always at the top of the list when it comes to my everyday job and what I'm trying to accomplish. I don't want those two to compare or come close. But both of those are my priorities. It's just in different ways. My family will always be my priority as long as I'm playing basketball a championship will always be a priority."

In the meantime, the Knicks are re-embracing the triangle and are seeing some payoff with a victory over the Sixers on Saturday, and a close defeat to the Raptors on Monday.

"I've been in it for the past couple of seasons. I know when it feels good," Anthony said. "I think now with the guys who are just starting to learn it or get back to playing it, guys are still trying to get comfortable with it. That's like with our — when things aren't going well we know to get into that. It's like second nature for us to know or to get into that."

He should have just hired Rambis. No doubt Melo waives his ntc if Kurt is running things. The tank could have started back in October or even the summer.

so what was this past summer all about? Hornacek, Rose, Noah, Lee?

What on earth is Phil doing?

Restart on the rebuild? I understand what Melo is thinking when he is exasperated at the lack of direction.

franco12 wrote:so what was this past summer all about? Hornacek, Rose, Noah, Lee?

What on earth is Phil doing?

Restart on the rebuild? I understand what Melo is thinking when he is exasperated at the lack of direction.

Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

CrushAlot wrote:He should have just hired Rambis. No doubt Melo waives his ntc if Kurt is running things. The tank could have started back in October or even the summer.

As long as rambis is on that coaching staff we will be tanking yr aftr yr.. I just don't believe we will ever make the playoffs running the triangle.

we haven't even won 2 games in row running the triangle with 22 different players

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

we get it, you don't like melo...you like the triangle and sasha, and you are one of the very few who thinks phil and rambis are great..so be it

I'm giving the credit for KP and Willy to Gaines. With the amount of limited work Phil does from his home base at the ranch. Doubt he had any idea of all the US draft prospects let alone the Euro players.

Did like Lee signing and like Holiday. Every other move is not one you would expect from an experience GM. Specially when your changing your tune in them after just one year. Just feel his ego on proving everyone wrong about the Triangle will continue to cloud his judgement. Everyone on here that is still defending him are just those who were, once again, hoping for one magic move to take us out of dysfunction. Think we call that Starphuck.

I'm not really concerned at this point. They tried the wide open offense for a good stretch and still not enough wins. Mostly the Spread PnR was about Rose and BJ. An increase in use of the Triangle makes sense if you are going to use guys like Baker who is not a break down guard. Willy and KP actually like the Triangle. Willy in particular is capable of passing out of the post as well as being a roll man in PnR.

I don't expect we'll see zero PnR from now on, just less. Melo, KOQ, LT, Holiday, CLee and Kuz are also Triangle capable players. Even Chasson Randle ran Triangle in College. Right now Rose is the only one that doesn't have the BB IQ to run Triangle. Since they waived BJ there less of a reason to stick with the Spread PnR style. IMO if you have PnR PG's you should be running some PnR, but if you move away from PnR PG's then you can run more Triangle.

I think the main thing is to have some kind of structure to fall back on. If it helps them be more efficient and with less turnovers then fine. IF it helps them defensively as well to play this style so be it. It's going to be interesting to see who they draft and sign to play in this system going forward. My guess is Phil is going SF in the draft.

crzymdups wrote:I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

Exactly!

HofstraBBall wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

Exactly!

This is the third time Phil has thrown Hornacek under the bus -

first, he installed Rambis as defensive coordinator after game 6 of the season

second, he didn't say a peep publicly when Rose went AWOL, no suspension from team

third, he has taken the offense out of Hornacek's hands and given it... to Rambis?

Actually, first and foremost he made Hornacek keep Rambis on his staff. Now he's basically making Hornacek let Rambis coach the team. Phil basically found a crafty way around the public outrage at him hiring Rambis to be head coach.

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

Who exactly did he bring over, that you think was a solid NBA player, other than Lee? Please leave out guys that were thought of as at bottom of their careers or coming off bad years with injuries.

And BTW, Lin sucks.

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

Who exactly did he bring over, that you think was a solid NBA player, other than Lee? Please leave out guys that were thought of as at bottom of their careers or coming off bad years with injuries.

And BTW, Lin sucks.

I have no idea how Lin figures into a discussion about Phil. Then again you are just dumping on Phil so I don't really expect anything logical from you. But the fact remains Melo himself expressed satisfaction with the coach and the team at the start of the season. It's not Phil's fault that Melo just isn't a top caliber player and his monumentous career achievement is a second round playoff exit.

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

Who exactly did he bring over, that you think was a solid NBA player, other than Lee? Please leave out guys that were thought of as at bottom of their careers or coming off bad years with injuries.

And BTW, Lin sucks.

I have no idea how Lin figures into a discussion about Phil. Then again you are just dumping on Phil so I don't really expect anything logical from you. But the fact remains Melo himself expressed satisfaction with the coach and the team at the start of the season. It's not Phil's fault that Melo just isn't a top caliber player and his monumentous career achievement is a second round playoff exit.

I couldn't come up with anyone either.

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

Who exactly did he bring over, that you think was a solid NBA player, other than Lee? Please leave out guys that were thought of as at bottom of their careers or coming off bad years with injuries.

And BTW, Lin sucks.

I have no idea how Lin figures into a discussion about Phil. Then again you are just dumping on Phil so I don't really expect anything logical from you. But the fact remains Melo himself expressed satisfaction with the coach and the team at the start of the season. It's not Phil's fault that Melo just isn't a top caliber player and his monumentous career achievement is a second round playoff exit.

Melo made the Western Conference finals during the time of Kobe and Duncan.

That's Chris Paul you're thinking of who hasn't gotten past the second round.

I asked in a different thread what impact players were available via trade or FA that had any interest in coming here and playing with Melo? And i couldn't come up with any either.

Why does this organization continue to alienate themselves from the rest of the league....From dragging former players out of the arena with security...Phil thinking he's smarter than the modern day coaches..."How's it Goink!" Forcing the Triangle on his coaches and resistant players. Modern day players want nothing to do with this Archaic offense...

Please Get this Old Geezer off my team!!!!

meloshouldgo wrote:I asked in a different thread what impact players were available via trade or FA that had any interest in coming here and playing with Melo? And i couldn't come up with any either.

None of the modern day players want to play in the Triangle....Please, god, let phil opts out this summer!

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

Exactly!

This is the third time Phil has thrown Hornacek under the bus -

first, he installed Rambis as defensive coordinator after game 6 of the season

second, he didn't say a peep publicly when Rose went AWOL, no suspension from team

third, he has taken the offense out of Hornacek's hands and given it... to Rambis?

Actually, first and foremost he made Hornacek keep Rambis on his staff. Now he's basically making Hornacek let Rambis coach the team. Phil basically found a crafty way around the public outrage at him hiring Rambis to be head coach.

They've been adding in more Triangle for a little while now. This is being overstated from what I can see. Also as I stated earlier the majority of the roster is Triangle Capable. It's only Rose that has a problem running it. BJ was the other guy who couldn't run Triangle. If you have Rose and BJ then I think you need to run PnR more heavily.

Now with the guys left including Randle and Baker, that makes sense to run more Triangle. It's not a major diss of Hornacek IMO. He's still mixing in his own stuff and approach. He was originally brought in to update the Triangle, not get rid of it completely. I think this is just Phil going back to the original plan.

Think about it, Melo, KP, Willy, Noah, KOQ, LT, CLee, Holiday, Baker, Randle, Sasha can all run Triangle. The only real question is which new players they will add and how their skills fit the system. My guess is Phil will target SF and SG in this draft that have high BB IQ, Pass the ball as well as having the ability to score in various ways. Looks like he's looking to go back to his roots in terms of the type of PG's he'll be looking for. Big, smart, passers, 3pt shooting, defensive minded and team oriented PG's.