Knicks · Phil evaluating roster based on Triangle fit! (page 2)

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

Exactly!

This is the third time Phil has thrown Hornacek under the bus -

first, he installed Rambis as defensive coordinator after game 6 of the season

second, he didn't say a peep publicly when Rose went AWOL, no suspension from team

third, he has taken the offense out of Hornacek's hands and given it... to Rambis?

Actually, first and foremost he made Hornacek keep Rambis on his staff. Now he's basically making Hornacek let Rambis coach the team. Phil basically found a crafty way around the public outrage at him hiring Rambis to be head coach.

They've been adding in more Triangle for a little while now. This is being overstated from what I can see. Also as I stated earlier the majority of the roster is Triangle Capable. It's only Rose that has a problem running it. BJ was the other guy who couldn't run Triangle. If you have Rose and BJ then I think you need to run PnR more heavily.

Now with the guys left including Randle and Baker, that makes sense to run more Triangle. It's not a major diss of Hornacek IMO. He's still mixing in his own stuff and approach. He was originally brought in to update the Triangle, not get rid of it completely. I think this is just Phil going back to the original plan.

Think about it, Melo, KP, Willy, Noah, KOQ, LT, CLee, Holiday, Baker, Randle, Sasha can all run Triangle. The only real question is which new players they will add and how their skills fit the system. My guess is Phil will target SF and SG in this draft that have high BB IQ, Pass the ball as well as having the ability to score in various ways. Looks like he's looking to go back to his roots in terms of the type of PG's he'll be looking for. Big, smart, passers, 3pt shooting, defensive minded and team oriented PG's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but porzingis and Willy are probably the ideal pf/c combination for the triangle. Also, Ntilikina seems like the ideal phil/triangle pg. He seems to check off all the boxes phil likes. And I do have confidence in Hornacek's ability to develop guards regardless of the system. Point is, it doesn't matter what system we run as long as we get better players that make sense for what they are trying to do. Seems like phil's young players fit a modernized triangle type system.

Knixkik wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but porzingis and Willy are probably the ideal pf/c combination for the triangle. Also, Ntilikina seems like the ideal phil/triangle pg. He seems to check off all the boxes phil likes. And I do have confidence in Hornacek's ability to develop guards regardless of the system. Point is, it doesn't matter what system we run as long as we get better players that make sense for what they are trying to do. Seems like phil's young players fit a modernized triangle type system.

EXACTLY. As I posted above, just look at the players we have and you can see a LOT of them are Triangle Type players. The problem was that Rose and BJ were not. Rose should not have had a problem but I think he never really tried to learn it. His other problem is not being able to shoot the 3. Still Rose with his driving ability should not have a problem in the Triangle if he used the Dribble hand offs and cuts. He doesn't really pass on PnR anyway.

I agree that a big PG like Ntilikina or Ball could be good in this system. I also like Bruce Brown from Miami and Isaiah Briscoe from Kentucky for the Triangle.

meloshouldgo wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Phil did what he set out to do. He hired a coach and build a team that allowed Melo to compete in his fast closing window. Melo himself said he was happy with Hornacek and Rose signings. The other vets were solid as well except Noah. The team showed why you can't win with Melo and Melo showed why he can't lead. Phil delivrred Melo what everyone considered a potential playoff team at the start of the season. Melo delivered the unmitigated disaster that we have come to expect of him.

Now we are moving on, hopefully we focus on young players and stop starfukking for good. Melo can rot on the bench or he can go jump.

Who exactly did he bring over, that you think was a solid NBA player, other than Lee? Please leave out guys that were thought of as at bottom of their careers or coming off bad years with injuries.

And BTW, Lin sucks.

I have no idea how Lin figures into a discussion about Phil. Then again you are just dumping on Phil so I don't really expect anything logical from you. But the fact remains Melo himself expressed satisfaction with the coach and the team at the start of the season. It's not Phil's fault that Melo just isn't a top caliber player and his monumentous career achievement is a second round playoff exit.

Totally agree about Lin not being a part of discussion. Same point I was trying to make when you bring Melo into every discussion. We are talking about the merits or lack there of, for Phil.

3 restarts in 3 years.
Insistence on antiquated system "No One" else uses.
Signing a parenial injury prone player who was in decline to 4 year 17m deal.
Trading a decent Role playing Center for a guy on with one year deal that obviously does not fit his "Criteria" for evaluating players.(Triangle)
How many of his draft picks from first 2 years still in league?
Not being able to salvage any return from multiple assets.
Failing to change perception of inept franchise. Has made it worse in eyes of NBA players.
Three years of negative working relationships with players and coaches. No communication.

Buy yes. Gaines picked KP, so everything else is forgiven.

Knixkik wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but porzingis and Willy are probably the ideal pf/c combination for the triangle. Also, Ntilikina seems like the ideal phil/triangle pg. He seems to check off all the boxes phil likes. And I do have confidence in Hornacek's ability to develop guards regardless of the system. Point is, it doesn't matter what system we run as long as we get better players that make sense for what they are trying to do. Seems like phil's young players fit a modernized triangle type system.

Since you asked to be corrected..Porzingus and Calderon asked Fisher to run more PnR last year and he did..They might have been responsible for Fisher losing his job..So KP may not feel he is so ideal running the triangle..

Uptown wrote:Why does this organization continue to alienate themselves from the rest of the league....From dragging former players out of the arena with security...Phil thinking he's smarter than the modern day coaches..."How's it Goink!" Triangle on his coaches and resistant players. Modern day players want nothing to do with this Archaic offense...

Please Get this Old Geezer off my team!!!!

Why us??..Why the Knicks??..We are the only franchise this type of dysfunction continue no matter who we bring in..This is so exhausting..

meloshouldgo wrote:I asked in a different thread what impact players were available via trade or FA that had any interest in coming here and playing with Melo? And i couldn't come up with any either.

Not being smart, this time, but do you watch a lot of NBA coverage? You do know there is a bad connotation with the Triangle, NY as a franchise (Dolan), the fan base expecting a chip or they will boo you faster than a 14 year old kid at draft night? You also know that most NBA players know that Melo gets a bad rap and is crazy for wanting to be here?

Knixkik wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but porzingis and Willy are probably the ideal pf/c combination for the triangle. Also, Ntilikina seems like the ideal phil/triangle pg. He seems to check off all the boxes phil likes. And I do have confidence in Hornacek's ability to develop guards regardless of the system. Point is, it doesn't matter what system we run as long as we get better players that make sense for what they are trying to do. Seems like phil's young players fit a modernized triangle type system.

Believe that..Centers that are desired for triangle are ones that can pass, set picks and rebound. Desired PF's are guys that can play the pinch post with backs to hoop. Don't know if that is what those two do best. But I am sure 3 or 4 years of it will help them get it. Just in time for Phil to fly the coop and the system to have to change.

Don't see how the guys that are so worried about KP's "DEVELOPMENT" don't see a problem with him solely learning a system that NO OTHER team in the NBA plays exclusively????

holfresh wrote:

Uptown wrote:Why does this organization continue to alienate themselves from the rest of the league....From dragging former players out of the arena with security...Phil thinking he's smarter than the modern day coaches..."How's it Goink!" Triangle on his coaches and resistant players. Modern day players want nothing to do with this Archaic offense...

Please Get this Old Geezer off my team!!!!

Why us??..Why the Knicks??..We are the only franchise this type of dysfunction continue no matter who we bring in..This is so exhausting..

Thats why this is most frustrating...phil, a former Knick and 11 time champion was supposed to restore credibility, instead he's just another clown in the Madison Square Garden Circus. When will it end!!!!

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

Exactly!

This is the third time Phil has thrown Hornacek under the bus -

first, he installed Rambis as defensive coordinator after game 6 of the season

second, he didn't say a peep publicly when Rose went AWOL, no suspension from team

third, he has taken the offense out of Hornacek's hands and given it... to Rambis?

Actually, first and foremost he made Hornacek keep Rambis on his staff. Now he's basically making Hornacek let Rambis coach the team. Phil basically found a crafty way around the public outrage at him hiring Rambis to be head coach.

They've been adding in more Triangle for a little while now. This is being overstated from what I can see. Also as I stated earlier the majority of the roster is Triangle Capable. It's only Rose that has a problem running it. BJ was the other guy who couldn't run Triangle. If you have Rose and BJ then I think you need to run PnR more heavily.

Now with the guys left including Randle and Baker, that makes sense to run more Triangle. It's not a major diss of Hornacek IMO. He's still mixing in his own stuff and approach. He was originally brought in to update the Triangle, not get rid of it completely. I think this is just Phil going back to the original plan.

Think about it, Melo, KP, Willy, Noah, KOQ, LT, CLee, Holiday, Baker, Randle, Sasha can all run Triangle. The only real question is which new players they will add and how their skills fit the system. My guess is Phil will target SF and SG in this draft that have high BB IQ, Pass the ball as well as having the ability to score in various ways. Looks like he's looking to go back to his roots in terms of the type of PG's he'll be looking for. Big, smart, passers, 3pt shooting, defensive minded and team oriented PG's.

I saw something that said Phil was wanting to do whatever he can to get J.Tatum in the draft so maybe he sees him as triangle worthy....unless that rumor isn't true of course.

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I thought Rambis was the defensive coordinator? SMH.

I could be wrong since it's only 2 games
But wasn't our play and defense better in the 2 games we committed to the Triangle

And that's without our best big and Triangle talent - KP.
KP would do really well in an offense where guards were actually forced to move the ball and play off the ball. So would Melo.

nyknickzingis wrote:I could be wrong since it's only 2 games
But wasn't our play and defense better in the 2 games we committed to the Triangle

And that's without our best big and Triangle talent - KP.
KP would do really well in an offense where guards were actually forced to move the ball and play off the ball. So would Melo.

Since you brought it up..I think it was pointed out in earlier games this season that the ball moved better and the offense flowed better without KP..I don't think it's an issue with KP but where get sets up in the offense..He stops at the side of the foul line which seems to cut off the vision of the entire court..That's my guess..Lance lined up at the three half way better the corner and the key..It help spacing and ball movement..

The defense is also better becuase Melo extends out to the three which KP doesn't do..And Melo doesn't cheat as much on the interior help..

nyknickzingis wrote:I could be wrong since it's only 2 games
But wasn't our play and defense better in the 2 games we committed to the Triangle

And that's without our best big and Triangle talent - KP.
KP would do really well in an offense where guards were actually forced to move the ball and play off the ball. So would Melo.

Wasn't the defense better because Melo was playing the 4 and Lance was playing the 3?

The fundamental problem (on the court) with this team has always been that Melo and KP don't really fit together on the floor at the 3 and 4, playing alongside a traditional center.

One issue with the Triangle is that it emphasizes traditional positions in a league that has basically abandoned them.

It also minimizes PG play in a league dominated by PG play.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

crzymdups wrote:I'm fine with him using Triangle fit to evaluate bigs. I'm scared about evaluating guards that way.

So much for letting Hornacek develop his own system.

Exactly!

This is the third time Phil has thrown Hornacek under the bus -

first, he installed Rambis as defensive coordinator after game 6 of the season

second, he didn't say a peep publicly when Rose went AWOL, no suspension from team

third, he has taken the offense out of Hornacek's hands and given it... to Rambis?

Actually, first and foremost he made Hornacek keep Rambis on his staff. Now he's basically making Hornacek let Rambis coach the team. Phil basically found a crafty way around the public outrage at him hiring Rambis to be head coach.

They've been adding in more Triangle for a little while now. This is being overstated from what I can see. Also as I stated earlier the majority of the roster is Triangle Capable. It's only Rose that has a problem running it. BJ was the other guy who couldn't run Triangle. If you have Rose and BJ then I think you need to run PnR more heavily.

Now with the guys left including Randle and Baker, that makes sense to run more Triangle. It's not a major diss of Hornacek IMO. He's still mixing in his own stuff and approach. He was originally brought in to update the Triangle, not get rid of it completely. I think this is just Phil going back to the original plan.

Think about it, Melo, KP, Willy, Noah, KOQ, LT, CLee, Holiday, Baker, Randle, Sasha can all run Triangle. The only real question is which new players they will add and how their skills fit the system. My guess is Phil will target SF and SG in this draft that have high BB IQ, Pass the ball as well as having the ability to score in various ways. Looks like he's looking to go back to his roots in terms of the type of PG's he'll be looking for. Big, smart, passers, 3pt shooting, defensive minded and team oriented PG's.

Name a star PG in the league right now who would thrive in the Triangle?

I know this is vastly unlikely to get through to massive anti Triangle agenda but the team gave full freedom to Rose, BJ and Melo to play without the Triangle for a good portion of the season.

While we definitely had our moments and looked improved on O a few things stood out

1- Melo and Rose could not play D in a high paced game. It was obvious with our size with KP Noah/Willy and Melo we were often slow back to set up. We are not built for track meets. KP and Melo will never thrive in track meet type of games.

2- the issue of offense going into ISO mode remained. Ball movement was not consistent.

3- Teams are better equipped to run and gun against us than we are them. They are smaller quicker and better 3 point shooters.

This is the way I see it.

Either Phil needs to literally make another huge overhaul or we need to try something different.

I completely agree that for many teams the Triangle is not right. However with Melo and KP the Triangle may actually be one of the few ways we can play good team basketball and also be good on D without exposing our lack of speed and quickness to play D.

Put it this way we have Willy, KP and Melo. Do you want to play high paced basketball with a front court like that?

Uptown wrote:

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I thought Rambis was the defensive coordinator? SMH.

Well he does know the triangle better than any other coach on the team so he should be having his say during practice.

nyknickzingis wrote:I know this is vastly unlikely to get through to massive anti Triangle agenda but the team gave full freedom to Rose, BJ and Melo to play without the Triangle for a good portion of the season.

While we definitely had our moments and looked improved on O a few things stood out

1- Melo and Rose could not play D in a high paced game. It was obvious with our size with KP Noah/Willy and Melo we were often slow back to set up. We are not built for track meets. KP and Melo will never thrive in track meet type of games.

2- the issue of offense going into ISO mode remained. Ball movement was not consistent.

3- Teams are better equipped to run and gun against us than we are them. They are smaller quicker and better 3 point shooters.

This is the way I see it.

Either Phil needs to literally make another huge overhaul or we need to try something different.

I completely agree that for many teams the Triangle is not right. However with Melo and KP the Triangle may actually be one of the few ways we can play good team basketball and also be good on D without exposing our lack of speed and quickness to play D.

Put it this way we have Willy, KP and Melo. Do you want to play high paced basketball with a front court like that?

That's fair - the roster is not built to run. It's built to play grind it out half court basketball. So why hire a coach known to play fast paced run and gun basketball in Horny? Why not hire Frank Vogel? Or interview Tom Thibadeau? The supposed Anti Triangle Agenda Team wanted to interview those guys because they seemed like better fits for the roster. I thought Fisher's version of the Triangle and defense was a much better fit for this team and he was a far superior coach to Hornacek. Now, we are seemingly left with Rambis coaching the defense and the offense, which it says in the founding articles of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team is a terrible idea.

My larger question - can a grind it out half court team win in 2017? (or 2018? or 2019?) The league now is built to favor greyhounds with deep range. We see it in the way the games are called, seemingly against us, but maybe more because that's just how the games are called these days. They don't favor teams who pound it inside. You're more likely to get a foul call shooting a three than you are posting up inside some nights, it seems.

Is this team built to win in the modern NBA? I really don't know if it can. Similarly to how you will see a team with the mega talents of Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins struggle to mesh on the floor together, I wonder if KP, Melo, and Willy can cover enough ground to keep this team competitive defensively if they take the court at the same time.

Even you, nyknickzingis, have said, as many of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team have noted since last season, that KP and Melo are not a good fit starting next to each other at the forward spots. They're too slow together to cover the opposing forwards. KP has issues guarding the paint and then closing out to the corner on a sweet shooting small ball four. When KP or Melo have to switch onto guards, bad things tend to happen.

Signed,
crzymdups, esq.
One of the framing fathers of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team

nyknickzingis wrote:I know this is vastly unlikely to get through to massive anti Triangle agenda but the team gave full freedom to Rose, BJ and Melo to play without the Triangle for a good portion of the season.

While we definitely had our moments and looked improved on O a few things stood out

1- Melo and Rose could not play D in a high paced game. It was obvious with our size with KP Noah/Willy and Melo we were often slow back to set up. We are not built for track meets. KP and Melo will never thrive in track meet type of games.

2- the issue of offense going into ISO mode remained. Ball movement was not consistent.

3- Teams are better equipped to run and gun against us than we are them. They are smaller quicker and better 3 point shooters.

This is the way I see it.

Either Phil needs to literally make another huge overhaul or we need to try something different.

I completely agree that for many teams the Triangle is not right. However with Melo and KP the Triangle may actually be one of the few ways we can play good team basketball and also be good on D without exposing our lack of speed and quickness to play D.

Put it this way we have Willy, KP and Melo. Do you want to play high paced basketball with a front court like that?

But we have seen the good spacing and ball movement in games when they weren't running the triangle as well when KP was out...This have been pointed out before...I think it has to do with where Melo and KP sets up when playing together..They crowd the lane with defensive players and not as much flow..

crzymdups wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I know this is vastly unlikely to get through to massive anti Triangle agenda but the team gave full freedom to Rose, BJ and Melo to play without the Triangle for a good portion of the season.

While we definitely had our moments and looked improved on O a few things stood out

1- Melo and Rose could not play D in a high paced game. It was obvious with our size with KP Noah/Willy and Melo we were often slow back to set up. We are not built for track meets. KP and Melo will never thrive in track meet type of games.

2- the issue of offense going into ISO mode remained. Ball movement was not consistent.

3- Teams are better equipped to run and gun against us than we are them. They are smaller quicker and better 3 point shooters.

This is the way I see it.

Either Phil needs to literally make another huge overhaul or we need to try something different.

I completely agree that for many teams the Triangle is not right. However with Melo and KP the Triangle may actually be one of the few ways we can play good team basketball and also be good on D without exposing our lack of speed and quickness to play D.

Put it this way we have Willy, KP and Melo. Do you want to play high paced basketball with a front court like that?

That's fair - the roster is not built to run. It's built to play grind it out half court basketball. So why hire a coach known to play fast paced run and gun basketball in Horny? Why not hire Frank Vogel? Or interview Tom Thibadeau? The supposed Anti Triangle Agenda Team wanted to interview those guys because they seemed like better fits for the roster. I thought Fisher's version of the Triangle and defense was a much better fit for this team and he was a far superior coach to Hornacek. Now, we are seemingly left with Rambis coaching the defense and the offense, which it says in the founding articles of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team is a terrible idea.

My larger question - can a grind it out half court team win in 2017? (or 2018? or 2019?) The league now is built to favor greyhounds with deep range. We see it in the way the games are called, seemingly against us, but maybe more because that's just how the games are called these days. They don't favor teams who pound it inside. You're more likely to get a foul call shooting a three than you are posting up inside some nights, it seems.

Is this team built to win in the modern NBA? I really don't know if it can. Similarly to how you will see a team with the mega talents of Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins struggle to mesh on the floor together, I wonder if KP, Melo, and Willy can cover enough ground to keep this team competitive defensively if they take the court at the same time.

Even you, nyknickzingis, have said, as many of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team have noted since last season, that KP and Melo are not a good fit starting next to each other at the forward spots. They're too slow together to cover the opposing forwards. KP has issues guarding the paint and then closing out to the corner on a sweet shooting small ball four. When KP or Melo have to switch onto guards, bad things tend to happen.

Signed,
crzymdups, esq.
One of the framing fathers of the Anti Triangle Agenda Team

Great post...The triangle is dated is not the way the current game is being played it is not the way the younger players in the league are used to playing. I coach junior HS ball and spend a lot of time at HS games, AAU tournaments, etc. This kids are either fast-breaking into an open 3 or when the game slows down they mostly run a 4-out 1 in, or a 5-out offensive set with lots of PNR. The triangle is not appealing at all and as Rose said in an interview, "It's random offense." You can say Rose is not cerebral enough to understand it, but i can guarantee you, most young guards will feel the same way, rightly or wrongly.

Instead of worrying so much about our offense, its the defensive side of the ball that needs to be fixed. As you said, a combo of Melo, Billy and KP on the front line is too slow footed to deal with most NBA frontlines of today...

newyorker4ever wrote:

Uptown wrote:

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I thought Rambis was the defensive coordinator? SMH.

Well he does know the triangle better than any other coach on the team so he should be having his say during practice.

So if Rambis os coaching the triangle at this point, and he's also the defensive coach, what is Hornaceks role? In the end, this is phil switching plans again. He should have just hired Rambis