Knicks · Phil evaluating roster based on Triangle fit! (page 7)

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:

martin wrote:

holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...

I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?

I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?

GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.

I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.

Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...

Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.

Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...

Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???

To say that Fisher was fired because he did not run the triangle is such an oversimplification if not flat wrong. Again, Fisher has nothing to do with what is going on this year.

martin that just seem like a BIAS statement,especially after fishes said himself

One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher told B/R. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it—and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it—I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand, ‘Who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?'”

We have seen this at times this year..

JH just stated today, were' going to evaluate the team and see who's a fit. If your not all in, your done.

That's Fisher essentially saying running Phil's system undercuts his authority..I didn't want to look for it and post..People will believe what they want to believe..

I think so far looking at it from a Triangle perspective even.

KP looks fluid in the Triangle. We need to find him in the post and we don't. But there's constant post up chances for him.
Lance Thomas looks really well suited to the offense.
Lee fits in well.
Holiday fits in very well.
O'Quinn moves the ball great and has open shots all the time.
Melo gets great iso looks in the Triangle.
Rose's lack of a 3 point shot hurts him in the Triangle, a guard in the Triangle needs to be able to shoot the corner and wing 3. However he has looked pretty good in it so far.
Willy was struggling a bit with reads, but he can pick it up fast his skills fit in well with the Triangle as he can post up maybe the best on the team right now.

I don't think we'll run the 90's version of the Triangle, This team is going to run a more modern version where there will be more screen and rolls, more early quick open 3 point shots. Less direct dump the ball in post ups like with Shaq or the Bulls.

What we really need is KP to develop a post game to be the Pau Gasol or a post up threat. We can not run the Tri to it's best level without a big man that can post up. So the onus is on KP this summer. Put in the work, get stronger. He has the ability to shoot over players. He can learn it quick. I just think his post base isn't strong yet. He did a nice job tonight against Vucevic, much better than the last time he played 5 against Jokic.

Will wait and see what happens, but I think I'm in favor of the Triangle being brought back. Over the last few games we have looked good defensively, we have looked like we play like a team and look like we have some ball movement,

One thing I'd like love to see is Phil get a go to scorer for the bench. While KP can fill in, most good teams have a scorer off the bench that can get hot, get going fast and carry the bench. I think we miss having this player quite a bit. Rely too much on the starters, who then often run out of gas.

So far though, I like the Triangle being brought back. Maybe a coincidence, but many good things are happening on the court since we brought the Triangle back.

CrushAlot wrote:Lance fits.

Seems like a budding bromance between you and Lance...touching.

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't know if it was a Triangle thing tonight, or if Orlando is simply terrible on D, but we looked pretty smooth, and there was a lot more movement. Anthony and Rose also got their opportunities to score, too, and I actually saw Melo cutting to the basket a few times.

It looks better with less bigs in the lane..Better spacing and ball movement..My guess is that it will look different when KP and Willy are crowding the lane..Been a theme even when we weren't running the triangle..

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't know if it was a Triangle thing tonight, or if Orlando is simply terrible on D, but we looked pretty smooth, and there was a lot more movement. Anthony and Rose also got their opportunities to score, too, and I actually saw Melo cutting to the basket a few times.

It looks better with less bigs in the lane..Better spacing and ball movement..My guess is that it will look different when KP and Willy are crowding the lane..Been a theme even when we weren't running the triangle..

KP and Willy crowding the lane??? WTH are you talking about? I don't see this being an issue at all. KP is quite comfortable on the perimeter and Willy can move around well enough setting screens or posting. I've never noticed any issues when they've been on the floor together!

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't know if it was a Triangle thing tonight, or if Orlando is simply terrible on D, but we looked pretty smooth, and there was a lot more movement. Anthony and Rose also got their opportunities to score, too, and I actually saw Melo cutting to the basket a few times.

It looks better with less bigs in the lane..Better spacing and ball movement..My guess is that it will look different when KP and Willy are crowding the lane..Been a theme even when we weren't running the triangle..

KP and Willy crowding the lane??? WTH are you talking about? I don't see this being an issue at all. KP is quite comfortable on the perimeter and Willy can move around well enough setting screens or posting. I've never noticed any issues when they've been on the floor together!

WaltLongmire wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Lance fits.

Seems like a budding bromance between you and Lance...touching.

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nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't know if it was a Triangle thing tonight, or if Orlando is simply terrible on D, but we looked pretty smooth, and there was a lot more movement. Anthony and Rose also got their opportunities to score, too, and I actually saw Melo cutting to the basket a few times.

It looks better with less bigs in the lane..Better spacing and ball movement..My guess is that it will look different when KP and Willy are crowding the lane..Been a theme even when we weren't running the triangle..

KP and Willy crowding the lane??? WTH are you talking about? I don't see this being an issue at all. KP is quite comfortable on the perimeter and Willy can move around well enough setting screens or posting. I've never noticed any issues when they've been on the floor together!

I'm taking the language MDA speaks..The bromance is over?

CrushAlot wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Lance fits.

Seems like a budding bromance between you and Lance...touching.

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If we had the Lance we saw before last year's injury for this entire season, who knows what our record might be considering all the close games we've played this year. His D might have turned a few games.

But we don't need him being great now...

CrushAlot wrote:Lance fits.

I like Lance Thomas. I appreciate any player who simply out grinded and willed his way into an NBA rotation. Thomas plays far above his natural skill set.

Here's the problem with Thomas, he's overvalued on this roster because he's a fundamentally sound basketball player, but not a very talented one, and the massive contrast in how he plays versus how Rose and Melo play the game, only makes him look more valuable. On the Spurs, Thomas would not be paid the way he is now, he would not be on the forefront of the rotation, he'd be a bench/energy guy and be paid like a bench/energy guy.

Guys like Thomas are not heavily valued by well run franchises because they can mine them all the time. They can develop them and they can put them in a position to succeed.

Thomas and his contract are a TAX on the way the Knicks are run and the way they fail to develop players and a byproduct of how Melo fails to lead this team and fails to play basic team basketball.

One of the base problems with the Triangle Offense is that it requires a ton of repetition and a ton of exposure. There are some passes that need to be automatic and need to be done instinctively and it doesn't matter what offense you run if you have a ball hogging shotjacker who doesn't pass and doesn't move well off the ball (Melo)

The Triangle is advanced fundamental team basketball. This team has a problem with BASIC TEAM BASKETBALL.

Bill Parcells always had it right. There's a way he wants to play and a type of player he needs, if you are not that kind of player, you need to go. Period.

The frustrating thing is this should not be so damn hard. Get a GM WITH EXPERIENCE AND WITH A FUTURE AHEAD OF HIM and let him do his job, the one he trained for from a winning franchise, and let him pick his own coach who aligns with him in terms of team philosophy and then go get players that fit that vision. Trade everyone you can and tank until you get the talent base to make a push.

How hard is that?

The Knicks make things harder than it has to be to win.

People criticized the Hawks for letting Josh Smith walk. Then the Pistons letting Greg Monroe walk. Sometimes you are just better off shedding guys via addition by subtraction.

Overpaying Thomas is just one of many boggling decisions that doesn't happen to well run franchises.

Phil Jackson should just get these guys to play basic team basketball FIRST, then see if the Triangle is a fit. ( Which it is probably not) It's like trying to teach calculus to someone who doesn't understand basic math.

Phil Jackson - Good GM? No
Phil Jackson - Bad GM? No
Phil Jackson - Mediocre GM? YES

With such a narrow margin for error where the franchise was when he inherited it, the Knicks needed more than mediocre.

After Jackson and Melo are gone, the Knicks are going to have to DO THE SAME DAMN THING THEY NEEDED TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN JACKSON STARTED. You can't shortcut a true team rebuild. All the Knicks have done is burn time.

TripleThreat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Lance fits.

I like Lance Thomas. I appreciate any player who simply out grinded and willed his way into an NBA rotation. Thomas plays far above his natural skill set.

Here's the problem with Thomas, he's overvalued on this roster because he's a fundamentally sound basketball player, but not a very talented one, and the massive contrast in how he plays versus how Rose and Melo play the game, only makes him look more valuable. On the Spurs, Thomas would not be paid the way he is now, he would not be on the forefront of the rotation, he'd be a bench/energy guy and be paid like a bench/energy guy.

Guys like Thomas are not heavily valued by well run franchises because they can mine them all the time. They can develop them and they can put them in a position to succeed.

Thomas and his contract are a TAX on the way the Knicks are run and the way they fail to develop players and a byproduct of how Melo fails to lead this team and fails to play basic team basketball.

One of the base problems with the Triangle Offense is that it requires a ton of repetition and a ton of exposure. There are some passes that need to be automatic and need to be done instinctively and it doesn't matter what offense you run if you have a ball hogging shotjacker who doesn't pass and doesn't move well off the ball (Melo)

The Triangle is advanced fundamental team basketball. This team has a problem with BASIC TEAM BASKETBALL.

Bill Parcells always had it right. There's a way he wants to play and a type of player he needs, if you are not that kind of player, you need to go. Period.

The frustrating thing is this should not be so damn hard. Get a GM WITH EXPERIENCE AND WITH A FUTURE AHEAD OF HIM and let him do his job, the one he trained for from a winning franchise, and let him pick his own coach who aligns with him in terms of team philosophy and then go get players that fit that vision. Trade everyone you can and tank until you get the talent base to make a push.

How hard is that?

The Knicks make things harder than it has to be to win.

People criticized the Hawks for letting Josh Smith walk. Then the Pistons letting Greg Monroe walk. Sometimes you are just better off shedding guys via addition by subtraction.

Overpaying Thomas is just one of many boggling decisions that doesn't happen to well run franchises.

Phil Jackson should just get these guys to play basic team basketball FIRST, then see if the Triangle is a fit. ( Which it is probably not) It's like trying to teach calculus to someone who doesn't understand basic math.

Phil Jackson - Good GM? No
Phil Jackson - Bad GM? No
Phil Jackson - Mediocre GM? YES

With such a narrow margin for error where the franchise was when he inherited it, the Knicks needed more than mediocre.

After Jackson and Melo are gone, the Knicks are going to have to DO THE SAME DAMN THING THEY NEEDED TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN JACKSON STARTED. You can't shortcut a true team rebuild. All the Knicks have done is burn time.

Not that hard.

They've done more than burn time - they've exhausted my ability to be a hard core fan.

I'm tired. Phil has decided now that he will judge players on how they fit in the triangle? What was he doing over the summer? Was he asleep?

The league out to change our name to:

The New York Cluster

We are at least 6-7 wins better in talent than our record indicates.

I just can't believe how long it took them to play defense and how long it took Melo n Rose to play in a way where they were moving the ball. Even now Melo still stalls the offense quite a bit at times.

A team with talent like Melo, KP, Rose, Lee, Willy, Holiday, Thomas, OQuinn ... they should not have been that bad on defense. Clearly these last 6 games show the team had the defense in them they just never ran the right offense or played with the right mindset. Lance Thomas also was a key glue piece missing.

Frustrating watching them play well now and beat San Antonio. Hold teams down better on D. Run the Triangle well. What took so damn long? Really frustrating season. Talent was there to be a top 6 team in the East.

TripleThreat wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Lance fits.

I like Lance Thomas. I appreciate any player who simply out grinded and willed his way into an NBA rotation. Thomas plays far above his natural skill set.

Here's the problem with Thomas, he's overvalued on this roster because he's a fundamentally sound basketball player, but not a very talented one, and the massive contrast in how he plays versus how Rose and Melo play the game, only makes him look more valuable. On the Spurs, Thomas would not be paid the way he is now, he would not be on the forefront of the rotation, he'd be a bench/energy guy and be paid like a bench/energy guy.

Guys like Thomas are not heavily valued by well run franchises because they can mine them all the time. They can develop them and they can put them in a position to succeed.

Thomas and his contract are a TAX on the way the Knicks are run and the way they fail to develop players and a byproduct of how Melo fails to lead this team and fails to play basic team basketball.

One of the base problems with the Triangle Offense is that it requires a ton of repetition and a ton of exposure. There are some passes that need to be automatic and need to be done instinctively and it doesn't matter what offense you run if you have a ball hogging shotjacker who doesn't pass and doesn't move well off the ball (Melo)

The Triangle is advanced fundamental team basketball. This team has a problem with BASIC TEAM BASKETBALL.

Bill Parcells always had it right. There's a way he wants to play and a type of player he needs, if you are not that kind of player, you need to go. Period.

The frustrating thing is this should not be so damn hard. Get a GM WITH EXPERIENCE AND WITH A FUTURE AHEAD OF HIM and let him do his job, the one he trained for from a winning franchise, and let him pick his own coach who aligns with him in terms of team philosophy and then go get players that fit that vision. Trade everyone you can and tank until you get the talent base to make a push.

How hard is that?

The Knicks make things harder than it has to be to win.

People criticized the Hawks for letting Josh Smith walk. Then the Pistons letting Greg Monroe walk. Sometimes you are just better off shedding guys via addition by subtraction.

Overpaying Thomas is just one of many boggling decisions that doesn't happen to well run franchises.

Phil Jackson should just get these guys to play basic team basketball FIRST, then see if the Triangle is a fit. ( Which it is probably not) It's like trying to teach calculus to someone who doesn't understand basic math.

Phil Jackson - Good GM? No
Phil Jackson - Bad GM? No
Phil Jackson - Mediocre GM? YES

With such a narrow margin for error where the franchise was when he inherited it, the Knicks needed more than mediocre.

After Jackson and Melo are gone, the Knicks are going to have to DO THE SAME DAMN THING THEY NEEDED TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN JACKSON STARTED. You can't shortcut a true team rebuild. All the Knicks have done is burn time.

Is Uriji a good GM? He gave Dermar Carrol $15mm+ a year deal for 4 years.
Shump, Bazemore... these guys are very valuable and get paid. Lance has not been healthy this year but 100% earned that contract. 27 years old, plays high caliber defense, can defend multiple positions and hits the 3 at over 40%. Your dead wrong.. Lance is excellent value. The only thing that hurts his value is he hasnt been healthy, but thats not what you are talking about.

fishmike wrote:dead wrong on Lance. Simply look around the league at what 3&D wing players are getting. Guys who defend like Lance and shoot the 3 at over 40% are mined? Sure.. then they get paid.

Is Uriji a good GM? He gave Dermar Carrol $15mm+ a year deal for 4 years.
Shump, Bazemore... these guys are very valuable and get paid. Lance has not been healthy this year but 100% earned that contract. 27 years old, plays high caliber defense, can defend multiple positions and hits the 3 at over 40%. Your dead wrong.. Lance is excellent value. The only thing that hurts his value is he hasnt been healthy, but thats not what you are talking about.

Thomas can hit a wide open 3 point shot.

He is a good energy guy and he pushes with everything he has, that's to his credit.

His flaws?

- Lousy rebounder
- Poor passer
- Outside of his occasional 3 ball, shows poor shot selection
- Cannot create his own shot, AT ALL ( most NBA players cannot do it consistently, but can in limited spots, Thomas cannot do it at all period )
- Has poor ball security
- Doesn't create turnovers
- Does not shoot 3s at a rate where that percentage matters
- Other than wide open 3s, he's a liability on offense ( he understands his defensive role, but his offensive game is mediocre to deficient, he is a poor decision maker, poor court awareness, is poor in transition, does not know how to fit within a context to a functional offense, this is where Courtney Lee is far superior and a better example of a player who doesn't push harder than his actual skill set allows)

Thomas has no ESTABLISHED 3 point shooting history behind him, and he was a career journeyman, also for a player of his pedigree ( basically an energy guy with no true single league average skill besides hitting that open 3) and just turned 28, his last two years of his deal will likely face a sharp decline.

He gets credit for high BBIQ for his defense, but his offensive IQ is pretty putrid.

I LIKE Lance Thomas a fan of the game itself. I do not like him as a Knick for his current contract length and AAV.

He was a journeyman for a reason. He has some extended value on this team simply because he actually attempts to play defensive team basketball and every other shotjacker on the roster must drive Hornacek insane.