fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
He was fired after losing straight 9 games and sleeping with player's wives among a bunch of other things not working so well. You just insert your triangle argument because it supports your agenda.
also because of the god-awful communication up and down from the players to coach to management.
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
To say that Fisher was fired because he did not run the triangle is such an oversimplification if not flat wrong. Again, Fisher has nothing to do with what is going on this year.
Why is Phil using the triangle to evaluate players??
Why not? The Triangle is a read and react offense, player movement and decisions based on how the defense is playing you.
What's bad about this? It's the same principals that SA and GS run. Player movement, ball movement, hit the open man, screen players, move to the open spot.
If a player CAN'T learn this style of play, whether you want to call it Triangle or what SA or GS does, I'd have hesitations about that player being able to play at a high level.
The system should be determined by the coach not the GM or whatever title he holds...It undercuts the confidence the players have in the coach...Phil is sabotaging the coach...Other coaches are pointing this out..Fisher said the same thing in a recent interview...HOF LB is saying it...If Hornacek was a triangle guy to begin with, I could care less what he wants to run...
Also it's not a system the next coach/GM will run..Why evaluate a players on something that will not be runned in the future if you are building for the future...
nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point. Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost 
Oh you mean crap like this???
Open shooters but he'd rather force it into the Teeth of the Defense!!!
True, he is an offensive minded player. When did the help come down. was it during his move to basket where he had one player on him? But your right, its no secret he forces the issue at times. What your not including is that you can make that break down of every player in the league at least five times a game. Specially, Offensive minded ones. Specially in the middle of a move to basket. Dont think good coaches want to take that hunger to score away from them. That's what makes them unique. The idea they can score at any time. Have you seen the type of shot selection Curry has? Should he have stopped shooting the other night when he went 0 for 11? Its a constant mind set these guys have to be aggressive.
The thing I dont like with Melo has always been his dribbling at three point line and forcing a long three. Just terrible when he does that. I have no problem with him backing down a guy and taking it strong to the basket. However, Think he is at his best when he is coming off picks for mid range jump shots. But you need the coach to call that and a good point guard.
DUDE WTF? The pictures above clearly show that Melo moved into the help D that was already cheating in. KP was open the ENTIRE TIME Melo was dribbling the ball and backing his man down. Look at the pictures and you can see the D was packing it in and if Melo used this to fool the D and then pass out it would lead to wide open shots or at least more swinging of the ball until the defense was unable to recover and a good shot was created.
Melo being such a great post player should be able to get Multiple Triple Doubles if he was willing to play that way. It's really all about HIM. If the team is playing thur Melo he becomes Duncan or has the same options as Jokic takes advantage of. There's simply no reason Melo should've be a great facilitator.
WTF? Just agreed with you?? My point was it's true but you can also break down these type of players and make a case they should have looked to pass.
As for being a great facilitator. He lead the team in assists last year. Can clearly be a good one. But agree, for some reason he has not been this year. Players? Pissed at Phil? Dunno. Area that needs improvemwnt.
holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
To say that Fisher was fired because he did not run the triangle is such an oversimplification if not flat wrong. Again, Fisher has nothing to do with what is going on this year.
Why is Phil using the triangle to evaluate players??
Why not? The Triangle is a read and react offense, player movement and decisions based on how the defense is playing you.
What's bad about this? It's the same principals that SA and GS run. Player movement, ball movement, hit the open man, screen players, move to the open spot.
If a player CAN'T learn this style of play, whether you want to call it Triangle or what SA or GS does, I'd have hesitations about that player being able to play at a high level.
The system should be determined by the coach not the GM or whatever title he holds...It undercuts the confidence the players have in the coach...Phil is sabotaging the coach...Other coaches are pointing this out..Fisher said the same thing in a recent interview...HOF LB is saying it...If Hornacek was a triangle guy to begin with, I could care less what he wants to run...
Also it's not a system the next coach/GM will run..Why evaluate a players on something that will not be runned in the future if you are building for the future...
The Prez most certainly can determine what he wants to run! You do realize that often GM's choose the coach based on what they run and if it fits what they envision. MDA was chosen in Houston in that way.
Moreover Jeff is actually agreeing to all of this and if he didn't agree he could quit. Jeff still is using his own stuff. He just said they haven't even hit 50% Triangle usage.
The GM is MILLS and Jeff doesn't look like he's going anywhere so why are you talking about the next??? Phil is going to be in charge this summer with his scouts looking for players that fit the Triangle. This isn't a bad thing! Just means smart, skilled, team oriented 2 way players.
KP aka future of the franchise on the Triangle
“We should’ve been playing it from the beginning of the season,’’ Porzingis said. “We’re a little behind. I don’t know when we can finally start using it properly and making an impact.
“The whole first season we played nothing but the triangle. I know it pretty well. I like the offense. It can only work if everyone believes in it and everyone executes it the right way. We’re starting to learn it the way we should.’’
nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
He was fired after losing straight 9 games and sleeping with player's wives among a bunch of other things not working so well. You just insert your triangle argument because it supports your agenda.
F why are we even talking about this??? The real story about this team is that Melo, Rose etc didn't lead to wins. Phil tried to give Melo what he asked for but it didn't work. NEXT!!! The way we'd have to build around Melo is simply not working for this team. Rehashing Fisher and dwelling on Melo's needs is FUTILE. I'm done worrying about the players we'd need to help Melo.
The best thing is to move on and build a team that is built with 2 Way Players who are not selfish and give max effort on D. They have 3 Picks and Cap Space this summer to upgrade with young players that will listen and play the way we need.
Ah...but the real issue and reason for thread is the dependency on the Fuckin Triangle. Your a thick headed MOFO. But let me see if I can explain it with logic not bringing Melo or Phil into it.
Look, I know you want Knicks to win as bad as I do. Problem is you want it so bad that you think one player change will make ot happen.
The guys that defend Melo, at least me, are not saying he is perfect, great or without fault. We are just saying that he is not the main problem today or for the future of this shitty franchise. Explain the logic in the following. We are forcing players to play an antiquated system that NO one else plays. Right? The chance Phil is here past the next two years is slim? 100% chance the next GM, coach prefers another system. Right? Unless you want Rambis. So for tenth time, how is that good planning towards the future of the franchise? How does that help the development of our young players? Has anything changed in the way the NBA views the franchise? At no other time have we been considered as big of a joke. No free agents want to come here and join the uncle Phil show. Dolan got Starphucked into thinking Phil equates to championship. You want to believe that we are on right track specially if we lose Melo? That's cool. But what we are doing with the Triangle has no.logic. For today or the future.
HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
He was fired after losing straight 9 games and sleeping with player's wives among a bunch of other things not working so well. You just insert your triangle argument because it supports your agenda.
F why are we even talking about this??? The real story about this team is that Melo, Rose etc didn't lead to wins. Phil tried to give Melo what he asked for but it didn't work. NEXT!!! The way we'd have to build around Melo is simply not working for this team. Rehashing Fisher and dwelling on Melo's needs is FUTILE. I'm done worrying about the players we'd need to help Melo.
The best thing is to move on and build a team that is built with 2 Way Players who are not selfish and give max effort on D. They have 3 Picks and Cap Space this summer to upgrade with young players that will listen and play the way we need.
Ah...but the real issue and reason for thread is the dependency on the Fuckin Triangle. Your a thick headed MOFO. But let me see if I can explain it with logic not bringing Melo or Phil into it.
Look, I know you want Knicks to win as bad as I do. Problem is you want it so bad that you think one player change will make ot happen.
The guys that defend Melo, at least me, are not saying he is perfect, great or without fault. We are just saying that he is not the main problem today or for the future of this shitty franchise. Explain the logic in the following. We are forcing players to play an antiquated system that NO one else plays. Right? The chance Phil is here past the next two years is slim? 100% chance the next GM, coach prefers another system. Right? Unless you want Rambis. So for tenth time, how is that good planning towards the future of the franchise? How does that help the development of our young players? Has anything changed in the way the NBA views the franchise? At no other time have we been considered as big of a joke. No free agents want to come here and join the uncle Phil show. Dolan got Starphucked into thinking Phil equates to championship. You want to believe that we are on right track specially if we lose Melo? That's cool. But what we are doing with the Triangle has no.logic. For today or the future.
Actually aside from Rose every player on the team is Triangle capable including Melo! I think it makes perfect sense to continue adding more Smart 2Way players that are Triangle capable. That will only enhance the team even if things change down the line. Triangle capable players are just GOOD players PERIOD.
So IMO there's nothing negative about trying to add HIGH BB IQ and Team Oriented players to the roster. The more the better. Spurs players never had a problem running Triangle and those are the kind of players we'll be looking for.
holfresh wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:KP aka future of the franchise on the Triangle“We should’ve been playing it from the beginning of the season,’’ Porzingis said. “We’re a little behind. I don’t know when we can finally start using it properly and making an impact.
“The whole first season we played nothing but the triangle. I know it pretty well. I like the offense. It can only work if everyone believes in it and everyone executes it the right way. We’re starting to learn it the way we should.’’
You realize under Hornacek we're doing BOTH. Hornacek isn't totally abandoning PnR or 3pt spacing. He said they aren't even at 50% Triangle usage.
The pick and roll can easily come out of the triangle
You overload the strong side and play the 2 man game on the weak
Kobe and Pau did it alot
nyknickzingis wrote:The pick and roll can easily come out of the triangle You overload the strong side and play the 2 man game on the weak
Kobe and Pau did it alot
I know it's hard for some to accept this! Triangle haters don't know that even 4 Out looks are in the Triangle. Right in Tex Winters own hand you see the play in his book. It's a SYSTEM and not a play! It's a tough concept for some to understand. Lots of PLAYS within the SYSTEM.
nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:The pick and roll can easily come out of the triangle You overload the strong side and play the 2 man game on the weak
Kobe and Pau did it alot
I know it's hard for some to accept this! Triangle haters don't know that even 4 Out looks are in the Triangle. Right in Tex Winters own hand you see the play in his book. It's a SYSTEM and not a play! It's a tough concept for some to understand. Lots of PLAYS within the SYSTEM.
I could post an article in WSJ by Herring where it's saying Derek Fisher said he isn't trying to do what Tex Winter is doing and that he is running more pnr and drag screens for KP...The point is really this is Phil's call and although everyone says the right things at different times, we know what have been said before...This is what causes the dysfunction...
So if the team struggles with the system, players will be pissed that Hornacek couldn't stand up to Phil...Totally undercuts him as a coach..Whatever man..Two years left of this nonsense...
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:holfresh wrote:Do you guys understand how highly unusual/abnormal this is??..And the blind support no matter where the win blows..
Neither Brandon Jennings or DRose have been winning or playing winning basketball anywhere the last few seasons. Phil took a few 1 year risks to give Melo a chance with a coach who ran more variety than the Triangle.It didn't work out and it sucks but let's all stop acting like we passed up on a superstar here or that this team with Rose and Jennings playing pick and roll non-stop ends up in the playoffs.
As i've repeatedly pointed out, the entire roster that is left is Triangle Capable except for Rose. Rose mainly because he's refused to even try to learn how to play in the Triangle. Other than Rose, Melo, KP, Willy, CLee, LT, Holiday, Baker, Kuz, KOQ, Randle, Sasha all can play in the Triangle just fine. They need to learn more of the nuances and counters in the system but they have the ability and have been running it fine whenever they actually ran it. It only made sense to move away from the Triangle a lot more when Rose and BJ were at the point. Even in the games where they went Spread PnR most of the time they still ran some Triangle. Now they're flipping things the other way and if Phil chooses to go back to bringing in players that fit the Triangle and Horny and his staff agree it made sense that's what we are seeing.
So Hornacek looked at what we're seeing and decided he should coach the team less on offense and defense in practice? Doesn't seem like a great sign.
He needs to become the lead assistant for the Warriors. One year and he gets a head job in a much better situation.
No! He needs for Phil to upgrade the talent! PERIOD!!! Why make this more complicated than it is. The NBA is mostly about the talent. You load up on 2 way players that are team oriented and you win games. That's what the real problem is.
When Fisher was fired you said we needed a coach that would commit to the Triangle. This team could've had a winning record with the right system. An analytics driven system that got guys the eight shots in the right spots. Courtney Lee is 9th in the league in 3pt shooting. KP is a 7'3" guy who can nail threes at 40%.
This team is not losing because of the Offensive System. They didn't even run a pure Triangle this year. Running it more NOW isn't why they have a losing record. You're only bringing this up because of articles suggesting they're going to run more Triangle.
Hornacek was recently running a mostly Spread PnR Offense. It still didn't lead to wins because of the defense!!! In the end this team needs better talent. More 2 Way talent, more athletic ability and higher BB IQ. That will lead to a better future. Arguing about this current roster which is still centered around Melo is futile.
He wasn't running a spread offense. They were running pick and rolls in a triangle formation and that's why the spacing was poor. They come down the floor in a triangle formation. Compare their sets to Houston's or Golden State. Golden State obviously has more power in their lineup, but I don't think you can really argue Houston's lineup top to bottom is that much better than the Knicks, talent wise. It's how they're deployed.
There is one huge diff w/ Houston. Their best player elevates the play of those around him. So while Harden does his thing the other Rockets get easy buckets off his play. When our best player does his thing everyone stands around and watches. Phil mentioned this in his drive to ruin the season as he only cares about triangle but the message was lost
Story of the Knicks offense...
As long as we aren't going back to how things were last year, I'm fine with it, but they can't possibly use it to judge pg's can they?
TPercy wrote:As long as we aren't going back to how things were last year, I'm fine with it, but they can't possibly use it to judge pg's can they?
You know the answer right?
holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:The pick and roll can easily come out of the triangle You overload the strong side and play the 2 man game on the weak
Kobe and Pau did it alot
I know it's hard for some to accept this! Triangle haters don't know that even 4 Out looks are in the Triangle. Right in Tex Winters own hand you see the play in his book. It's a SYSTEM and not a play! It's a tough concept for some to understand. Lots of PLAYS within the SYSTEM.
I could post an article in WSJ by Herring where it's saying Derek Fisher said he isn't trying to do what Tex Winter is doing and that he is running more pnr and drag screens for KP...The point is really this is Phil's call and although everyone says the right things at different times, we know what have been said before...This is what causes the dysfunction...
So if the team struggles with the system, players will be pissed that Hornacek couldn't stand up to Phil...Totally undercuts him as a coach..Whatever man..Two years left of this nonsense...
You realize that running Drag Screens doesn't necessarily change the Triangle. It only ADDS on top of what the base offense is. The problem isn't with adding plays within the system. It's making sure that execution is high and players are on the same page and learn how to counter what defenses do when they start to pick up their intensity. There are higher levels of the Triangle that the players have to learn and grow into.
From what i've seen the team has started to get better at running Triangle and aside from Rose most have some semblance of how to flow in it. The cuts are better as are the passes to the cutters. They've still got a lot of room to grow but it's worth more investment in that approach. As the team learns and grows they will have to upgrade the talent as well and if they're looking for intelligent team players the team will improve. There are a LOT of really well rounded young players in this draft. Just keep adding more 2 Way High BB IQ players and this won't be an issue.
nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:The pick and roll can easily come out of the triangle You overload the strong side and play the 2 man game on the weak
Kobe and Pau did it alot
I know it's hard for some to accept this! Triangle haters don't know that even 4 Out looks are in the Triangle. Right in Tex Winters own hand you see the play in his book. It's a SYSTEM and not a play! It's a tough concept for some to understand. Lots of PLAYS within the SYSTEM.
I could post an article in WSJ by Herring where it's saying Derek Fisher said he isn't trying to do what Tex Winter is doing and that he is running more pnr and drag screens for KP...The point is really this is Phil's call and although everyone says the right things at different times, we know what have been said before...This is what causes the dysfunction...
So if the team struggles with the system, players will be pissed that Hornacek couldn't stand up to Phil...Totally undercuts him as a coach..Whatever man..Two years left of this nonsense...
You realize that running Drag Screens doesn't necessarily change the Triangle. It only ADDS on top of what the base offense is. The problem isn't with adding plays within the system. It's making sure that execution is high and players are on the same page and learn how to counter what defenses do when they start to pick up their intensity. There are higher levels of the Triangle that the players have to learn and grow into.From what i've seen the team has started to get better at running Triangle and aside from Rose most have some semblance of how to flow in it. The cuts are better as are the passes to the cutters. They've still got a lot of room to grow but it's worth more investment in that approach. As the team learns and grows they will have to upgrade the talent as well and if they're looking for intelligent team players the team will improve. There are a LOT of really well rounded young players in this draft. Just keep adding more 2 Way High BB IQ players and this won't be an issue.
You are avoiding the context of my argument...
nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
He was fired after losing straight 9 games and sleeping with player's wives among a bunch of other things not working so well. You just insert your triangle argument because it supports your agenda.
F why are we even talking about this??? The real story about this team is that Melo, Rose etc didn't lead to wins. Phil tried to give Melo what he asked for but it didn't work. NEXT!!! The way we'd have to build around Melo is simply not working for this team. Rehashing Fisher and dwelling on Melo's needs is FUTILE. I'm done worrying about the players we'd need to help Melo.
The best thing is to move on and build a team that is built with 2 Way Players who are not selfish and give max effort on D. They have 3 Picks and Cap Space this summer to upgrade with young players that will listen and play the way we need.
Ah...but the real issue and reason for thread is the dependency on the Fuckin Triangle. Your a thick headed MOFO. But let me see if I can explain it with logic not bringing Melo or Phil into it.
Look, I know you want Knicks to win as bad as I do. Problem is you want it so bad that you think one player change will make ot happen.
The guys that defend Melo, at least me, are not saying he is perfect, great or without fault. We are just saying that he is not the main problem today or for the future of this shitty franchise. Explain the logic in the following. We are forcing players to play an antiquated system that NO one else plays. Right? The chance Phil is here past the next two years is slim? 100% chance the next GM, coach prefers another system. Right? Unless you want Rambis. So for tenth time, how is that good planning towards the future of the franchise? How does that help the development of our young players? Has anything changed in the way the NBA views the franchise? At no other time have we been considered as big of a joke. No free agents want to come here and join the uncle Phil show. Dolan got Starphucked into thinking Phil equates to championship. You want to believe that we are on right track specially if we lose Melo? That's cool. But what we are doing with the Triangle has no.logic. For today or the future.
Actually aside from Rose every player on the team is Triangle capable including Melo! I think it makes perfect sense to continue adding more Smart 2Way players that are Triangle capable. That will only enhance the team even if things change down the line. Triangle capable players are just GOOD players PERIOD.
So IMO there's nothing negative about trying to add HIGH BB IQ and Team Oriented players to the roster. The more the better. Spurs players never had a problem running Triangle and those are the kind of players we'll be looking for.
Tried logic. But let's just agree to disagree.
martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
To say that Fisher was fired because he did not run the triangle is such an oversimplification if not flat wrong. Again, Fisher has nothing to do with what is going on this year.
martin that just seem like a BIAS statement,especially after fishes said himself
One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher told B/R. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it—and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it—I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand, ‘Who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?'”
We have seen this at times this year..
JH just stated today, were' going to evaluate the team and see who's a fit. If your not all in, your done.
knicks1248 wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:martin wrote:holfresh wrote:Pushing the triangle is pointless..It will end as soon as Phil leaves...So Phil is not acting in the best interest of the organization..He is acting in self interest...Phil should be trying to build an organization for the future not the past...It's sad watching all this...
I don't remember where it was said that the organization was going full Triangle, I don't know why that misconception has taken full place in the discussion. Could you point me to that?
I do see that it was made mention that Triangle was used in practice to evaluate players, coaches on all teams should be doing this type of thing all the time, perhaps now that 2/3's of the season has passed, the Knicks are using the rest of the season to measure each player instead of having the focus on exclusively going for playoffs. Anything wrong with that at this point in time?
GS and SA and other teams use elements of the Triangle, but when the Knicks do it, it's turning back the clock and running the wrong offense.
I don't quite understand this logic. You take what a few writers poorly describe and run with it at the cost of exaggerating what you don't know is actually happening.
Fisher was fired when he deviated from the triangle...Some say it was because of off the court issues..We began the season running the triangle then moved away from it..Now we are back running it more...Phil is 71 years old and running the organization in a manner no other organization has been runned..It's not healthy...It hasn't worked for three years...This year we had the pieces to be a .500 team, we aren't coached properly because Phil wants a coach who will capitulate to his wishes...At least he and Rambis might be happy...
Not sure why you bring up last year, has nothing to do with what is going on right now. You didn't address anything I posted.
Bringing up last year addresses your question...He was fired for not running the triangle...I don't get your point because no official announcement was made??..No organizational announcement is ever made on what system is being runned...You can see it and the announcers point it out in games...
Also...Why would Phil use the triangle to evaluate the future players in the organization if he knows the next coach/GM won't use it???
To say that Fisher was fired because he did not run the triangle is such an oversimplification if not flat wrong. Again, Fisher has nothing to do with what is going on this year.
martin that just seem like a BIAS statement,especially after fishes said himself
One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher told B/R. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it—and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it—I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand, ‘Who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?'”
We have seen this at times this year..
JH just stated today, were' going to evaluate the team and see who's a fit. If your not all in, your done.
That's Fisher essentially saying running Phil's system undercuts his authority..I didn't want to look for it and post..People will believe what they want to believe..
