Knicks · Knicks have over-complicated their moves.. (page 2)
newyorknewyork wrote:In terms of the triangle Noah is waàaaaaaaaay more of a triangle big then Lopez is. You guys forget also the all season we were begging & pleading for a guard the could penitrate.Noah's passing and Roses penitration were ideally supposed to be good fits for the tri and what this team needed based on the year before.
There is very clear logic behind bringing both players in. They just didn't pan out.
He was a better triangle fit... was being the operative word
Vmart wrote:EnySpree wrote:Vmart wrote:EnySpree wrote:Vmart wrote:I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. This team is not as good as you guys are making them out to be. Phil is making a huge mistake and I question whether he has a plan. I'm starting to feel he came here for the fat pay check, I hope I'm wrong but there is no difference between Phil and Melo at this point just here for the fat check.How do you directly go from The basketball court to the gutter? Just here for the fat check? That's just completely bypassing any type of reasoning. That's just not fair. If you have that mentality then just find another team. Maybe a team that's always winning so you don't have to worry about thinking.
Asides from KP and Hernangomez Phil hasn't done anything. He has an opportunity here to tank and work the team into a top pick. He should have cut Rose and Melo should be getting 20-25 minutes a game and KP should be limited also as he is dealing foot injury and other nagging injuries. The object here is to get the highest pick possible. While also working the likes of Kuz, Baker, Randle and Hernangomez into the mix for experience.
Winning now is meaningless and it is going to cost the Knicks like it always does. You know it's a given. This team does everything half assed and they seem to be doing it again. Phil can't stop himself he has fallen into the win now mentality of his predecessor. Game over!!!
You are all over the place. Either he is doing something or doing nothing. Which is it? You want him to do something and nothing at the same time... yet you still want to cruxify him... It's just a miserable way to look at things
I don't think you are comprehending what is happening. Gravity of the situation being created by winning now. The franchise is being set up for future failure. The Knicks should be thinking about pairing KP up with a running mate. Instead a scenario similar to past failure is being propped up once again that has the Knicks missing out on top tier talent through the draft. I'm a Phil fan I want to believe he has a plan. Does he really have a plan if you look at his moves they have not been pretty now that it obviously a failure why try to win now. It's so illogical to do so. Rose is a malcontent why even keep him around let him go. Melo is trade bait why give him major minutes keep him healthy so he can be moved. KP has been having a tough time with injuries all season why push it.
Phil has been controlling Hornacek all year I'm sure can do it now too. How often do you want to see the franchise type talent being draft in front of the Knicks pick. To me the a top three draft pick would put the Knicks on the right track to getting back to greatness. The path that they always avoid is the right path.
You can't put all your eggs in one basket. You don't go into a season looking to tank just to maybe hit on another lotto pick. Golden State traded assets for David Lee expecting to be a playoff team with Curry and Ellis. They ended up with the 11th pick and landed Thompson and landed Draymond in the 2nd round. The Magic among other teams have been in the lottery with multiple top 6 picks and aren't close to competing.
There is no exact science.
Vmart wrote:EnySpree wrote:Vmart wrote:EnySpree wrote:Vmart wrote:I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. This team is not as good as you guys are making them out to be. Phil is making a huge mistake and I question whether he has a plan. I'm starting to feel he came here for the fat pay check, I hope I'm wrong but there is no difference between Phil and Melo at this point just here for the fat check.How do you directly go from The basketball court to the gutter? Just here for the fat check? That's just completely bypassing any type of reasoning. That's just not fair. If you have that mentality then just find another team. Maybe a team that's always winning so you don't have to worry about thinking.
Asides from KP and Hernangomez Phil hasn't done anything. He has an opportunity here to tank and work the team into a top pick. He should have cut Rose and Melo should be getting 20-25 minutes a game and KP should be limited also as he is dealing foot injury and other nagging injuries. The object here is to get the highest pick possible. While also working the likes of Kuz, Baker, Randle and Hernangomez into the mix for experience.
Winning now is meaningless and it is going to cost the Knicks like it always does. You know it's a given. This team does everything half assed and they seem to be doing it again. Phil can't stop himself he has fallen into the win now mentality of his predecessor. Game over!!!
You are all over the place. Either he is doing something or doing nothing. Which is it? You want him to do something and nothing at the same time... yet you still want to cruxify him... It's just a miserable way to look at things
I don't think you are comprehending what is happening. Gravity of the situation being created by winning now. The franchise is being set up for future failure. The Knicks should be thinking about pairing KP up with a running mate. Instead a scenario similar to past failure is being propped up once again that has the Knicks missing out on top tier talent through the draft. I'm a Phil fan I want to believe he has a plan. Does he really have a plan if you look at his moves they have not been pretty now that it obviously a failure why try to win now. It's so illogical to do so. Rose is a malcontent why even keep him around let him go. Melo is trade bait why give him major minutes keep him healthy so he can be moved. KP has been having a tough time with injuries all season why push it.
Phil has been controlling Hornacek all year I'm sure can do it now too. How often do you want to see the franchise type talent being draft in front of the Knicks pick. To me the a top three draft pick would put the Knicks on the right track to getting back to greatness. The path that they always avoid is the right path.
Im a active poster... so im not sure if you noticed but i want to tank too. I hate rose and Melo right now.... I'm not sure if you realize how develop mentally delayed you sound. The Knicks aren't going to blatantly tank. If Melo wants to play we can't force him not to. Rose deserves no favors by waiving him. Other than that, the Knicks did a wonderful job of tanking all year. Phil didn't make any moves. I'm not sure if you are in his email circle but he emailed me personally and asked me hows it goink? Anyway he spoke volumes by not making a deal that this team is looking toward the draft. Jennings is gone to make room for Randle.... so i have to remind you, when burning sage, it's meant for clearing space, not to be inhaled. Open a window or wear a mask perhaps. When the oxygen level gets too low you loose brain matter. The extra space in your skull will help you float better, so if you love to swim maybe all of this is necessary for you. Carry on
At this point, I don't care what the system is, as long as we have one and stick to it. The need for cohesion and direction is the priority at the moment. Phil will be gone in 2 years, but for now we just need to develop players, have some structure and turn down the drama.
newyorknewyork wrote:Vmart wrote:EnySpree wrote:Vmart wrote:EnySpree wrote:Vmart wrote:I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. This team is not as good as you guys are making them out to be. Phil is making a huge mistake and I question whether he has a plan. I'm starting to feel he came here for the fat pay check, I hope I'm wrong but there is no difference between Phil and Melo at this point just here for the fat check.How do you directly go from The basketball court to the gutter? Just here for the fat check? That's just completely bypassing any type of reasoning. That's just not fair. If you have that mentality then just find another team. Maybe a team that's always winning so you don't have to worry about thinking.
Asides from KP and Hernangomez Phil hasn't done anything. He has an opportunity here to tank and work the team into a top pick. He should have cut Rose and Melo should be getting 20-25 minutes a game and KP should be limited also as he is dealing foot injury and other nagging injuries. The object here is to get the highest pick possible. While also working the likes of Kuz, Baker, Randle and Hernangomez into the mix for experience.
Winning now is meaningless and it is going to cost the Knicks like it always does. You know it's a given. This team does everything half assed and they seem to be doing it again. Phil can't stop himself he has fallen into the win now mentality of his predecessor. Game over!!!
You are all over the place. Either he is doing something or doing nothing. Which is it? You want him to do something and nothing at the same time... yet you still want to cruxify him... It's just a miserable way to look at things
I don't think you are comprehending what is happening. Gravity of the situation being created by winning now. The franchise is being set up for future failure. The Knicks should be thinking about pairing KP up with a running mate. Instead a scenario similar to past failure is being propped up once again that has the Knicks missing out on top tier talent through the draft. I'm a Phil fan I want to believe he has a plan. Does he really have a plan if you look at his moves they have not been pretty now that it obviously a failure why try to win now. It's so illogical to do so. Rose is a malcontent why even keep him around let him go. Melo is trade bait why give him major minutes keep him healthy so he can be moved. KP has been having a tough time with injuries all season why push it.
Phil has been controlling Hornacek all year I'm sure can do it now too. How often do you want to see the franchise type talent being draft in front of the Knicks pick. To me the a top three draft pick would put the Knicks on the right track to getting back to greatness. The path that they always avoid is the right path.
You can't put all your eggs in one basket. You don't go into a season looking to tank just to maybe hit on another lotto pick. Golden State traded assets for David Lee expecting to be a playoff team with Curry and Ellis. They ended up with the 11th pick and landed Thompson and landed Draymond in the 2nd round. The Magic among other teams have been in the lottery with multiple top 6 picks and aren't close to competing.
There is no exact science.
And yet you opened up the point I was making. We won a few games at the tail end of the year and we lose out on Curry and draft a player I don't even know where he is. Why do you want to lose out or miss out on a choice. You want to maximize your choices. I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket but I do know that the current basket could use a top three pick. The team as is, is not going anywhere.
Cartman718 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:In terms of the triangle Noah is waàaaaaaaaay more of a triangle big then Lopez is. You guys forget also the all season we were begging & pleading for a guard the could penitrate.Noah's passing and Roses penitration were ideally supposed to be good fits for the tri and what this team needed based on the year before.
There is very clear logic behind bringing both players in. They just didn't pan out.
They didn't pan out because Phil didn't do his homework.
Noah...damaged goods. Have you seen him shoot at least 1 jumper this season.
Rose...no 3pt shooting on passes from bigs. Terrible at penetrate and kick, how could Phil not see this? How is he a triangle PG at all when he doesn't cut to the basket on passes and is always calling his own number? He is not even a PG.
Didn't Kobe and Jordan call their own number at will, aside from shaq and pipen, no one else under Phil average more than 10 shots per game. If Phil brought rose in to play like Kerr, farmer, amstrong, or Sasha. Like are fckng kidding me, you thought rose was going to hang around the perimeter. If anyone thought that, you clearly were out of your mind, like phil
knicks1248 wrote:Cartman718 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:In terms of the triangle Noah is waàaaaaaaaay more of a triangle big then Lopez is. You guys forget also the all season we were begging & pleading for a guard the could penitrate.Noah's passing and Roses penitration were ideally supposed to be good fits for the tri and what this team needed based on the year before.
There is very clear logic behind bringing both players in. They just didn't pan out.
They didn't pan out because Phil didn't do his homework.
Noah...damaged goods. Have you seen him shoot at least 1 jumper this season.
Rose...no 3pt shooting on passes from bigs. Terrible at penetrate and kick, how could Phil not see this? How is he a triangle PG at all when he doesn't cut to the basket on passes and is always calling his own number? He is not even a PG.Didn't Kobe and Jordan call their own number at will, aside from shaq and pipen, no one else under Phil average more than 10 shots per game. If Phil brought rose in to play like Kerr, farmer, amstrong, or Sasha. Like are fckng kidding me, you thought rose was going to hang around the perimeter. If anyone thought that, you clearly were out of your mind, like phil
Kobe and Jordan in their prime were head and shoulders above Rose in all aspects of where he is in his career now.
Kobe did call his number at will even during his second last year and did catch a lot of flak all season long. Also...how many games did that approach win him games. Also during their primes, the one-on-one play from your lead guard may have been acceptable, but much more of a shooters' and team game on both ends now don't you think? Iso Melo, Iso Kobe, Iso Jordan...all good plays in the past.
This tweet is from November...Ian Begley
FWIW: One NBA scout who watched tonight's game and said the Knicks ran something out of a triangle set only a handful of times tonight.
10:52 PM - 4 Nov 2016
If Rose is not a triangle savvy guard and he is your lead guard and Phil likes guards who can run the triangle offense...um...why did he sign Rose again?
As far as hanging around the perimeter...no one is saying thats all he needs to do, but by his own admission, he said he needs to change his style of play a bit for the Knicks before the season began. And then what does he do all season, after giving a feeble attempt at running triangle offense...he goes ahead and resorts to his old play...driving to the basket with his head down and when double teamed has nowhere to go since his head was down...he doesn't know where his teammates have rotated to...he then jumps and in mid-air tries to pass the ball and of course fails miserably more often than not.
I am not saying that Rose's ineptitude is all his fault, but he clearly has not helped his case by trying to run what the GM and Coach are telling him.
You are failing miserably in your very first statement at Rose vs Kobe / MJ comparison...not even a contest dude. The fact that Rose is here is entirely Phil's fault. The fact that Rose thought and also Phil thought and also Hornacek thought that Rose could change his style of play...that's all their faults. They all thought including Rose himself that he is capable of doing so, when he clearly isn't.
Cartman718 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:In terms of the triangle Noah is waàaaaaaaaay more of a triangle big then Lopez is. You guys forget also the all season we were begging & pleading for a guard the could penitrate.Noah's passing and Roses penitration were ideally supposed to be good fits for the tri and what this team needed based on the year before.
There is very clear logic behind bringing both players in. They just didn't pan out.
They didn't pan out because Phil didn't do his homework.
Noah...damaged goods. Have you seen him shoot at least 1 jumper this season.
Rose...no 3pt shooting on passes from bigs. Terrible at penetrate and kick, how could Phil not see this? How is he a triangle PG at all when he doesn't cut to the basket on passes and is always calling his own number? He is not even a PG.
I was addressing the point of not bringing in triangle players. Yet Thibbs ran a lot of triangle with Rose and Noah with the Bulls. We needed someone the penitrate Rose was thought to provide that. If Rose was MVP Rose then we wouldn't have been able to move him for Lopez and Grant. Noah I do agree Phil gave him 1-2 years to long. Wasn't happy about the signing. But with Willie and KOQ behind him. I dont believe he felt Noah was anything more then a stop gap.
franco12 wrote:holfresh wrote:TLover wrote:If the triangle was going to be the system all along, then why not stick with it in the beginning and acquire players who will fit in it. Keeping Lopez & Grant would have made life easier. We wouldn't have a guy in Rose that doesn't fit in the offense & we're not dealing with Noah's contract.
Heck we were better offer keeping & developing Hardaway.This team cannot be built based on impatience of fans & owner.
Because they weren't a good fit for the system...Lopez held the ball and wasn't a good passer in the post...What's Lopez assist stat, 1 per year??..Grant can't hit the outside shot consistently..Fisher's comments about Grant's game was that he was a PnR PG..But we won 32 games, I guess we long for those days??...
It ain't all on the players...We are dysfunctional..you keep the players because you are building, and those players take longer than pre season to understand the system that they are trying to build.
Sure, Lopez wasn't perfect, but he was solid and started every game, and filled a role. Why replace him with someone hurt, with a history of breaking down, and a PG that didn't fit the system?
We need to start a new segment and sticky it called "Ask Phil", for all the moves we don't understand...But there will be only one answer for every question.."The Triangle"..My question is why fire the only coach who over achieved, took you to the playoffs twice in tree years in the last decade?...Answer??? The big T...
knicks1248 wrote:Cartman718 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:In terms of the triangle Noah is waàaaaaaaaay more of a triangle big then Lopez is. You guys forget also the all season we were begging & pleading for a guard the could penitrate.Noah's passing and Roses penitration were ideally supposed to be good fits for the tri and what this team needed based on the year before.
There is very clear logic behind bringing both players in. They just didn't pan out.
They didn't pan out because Phil didn't do his homework.
Noah...damaged goods. Have you seen him shoot at least 1 jumper this season.
Rose...no 3pt shooting on passes from bigs. Terrible at penetrate and kick, how could Phil not see this? How is he a triangle PG at all when he doesn't cut to the basket on passes and is always calling his own number? He is not even a PG.Didn't Kobe and Jordan call their own number at will, aside from shaq and pipen, no one else under Phil average more than 10 shots per game. If Phil brought rose in to play like Kerr, farmer, amstrong, or Sasha. Like are fckng kidding me, you thought rose was going to hang around the perimeter. If anyone thought that, you clearly were out of your mind, like phil
The Role Rose has is not so much to be Farmar or Fisher. He's in more of the Attack Guard role of Kobe or MJ! Baker is playing the Fisher role. There isn't a strict singular role. It depends on the guards actual talents. The Triangle is a complete and well developed system and because of that it's very flexible. ANY PLAYER can fill any role or spot on the floor.
I'll concede first that any criticism of the Noah move is well-deserved. We could all see his health failing and there's no way he should have been given a four-year deal.
With Rose, I get it. Rose and his pedigree, as unlikely as it is to come true, is a non-zero chance for Phil to swing the talent pendulum in the other direction. As much as people want to yack about the triangle and who fits and who doesn't, the Knicks need talent. Porzingis is young talent and the Knicks have Melo who brings some talent in light of his flaws. Rose was a better chance at that then Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant, plus isn't on a long-term deal so he can open cap space. This one I get and I can live with it not working out because Robin Lopez isn't making the Knicks better.
The issue here is that with Rose on the floor (although there's no circumstance where Phil should bring him back next year) and Melo at the 3, the Knicks can't defend the perimeter because neither guy plays defense. Offensively, the Knicks are middle of the league in efficiency despite the ball movement issues and are 25th defensively. Melo at the 4 and Lance at the 5 With O'Quinn and Hernongomez backing them up probably fixes this short-term, although you'd have to surround that with perimeter guys that can defend.
y2zipper wrote:Here's what I'd say about the moves:I'll concede first that any criticism of the Noah move is well-deserved. We could all see his health failing and there's no way he should have been given a four-year deal.
With Rose, I get it. Rose and his pedigree, as unlikely as it is to come true, is a non-zero chance for Phil to swing the talent pendulum in the other direction. As much as people want to yack about the triangle and who fits and who doesn't, the Knicks need talent. Porzingis is young talent and the Knicks have Melo who brings some talent in light of his flaws. Rose was a better chance at that then Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant, plus isn't on a long-term deal so he can open cap space. This one I get and I can live with it not working out because Robin Lopez isn't making the Knicks better.
The issue here is that with Rose on the floor (although there's no circumstance where Phil should bring him back next year) and Melo at the 3, the Knicks can't defend the perimeter because neither guy plays defense. Offensively, the Knicks are middle of the league in efficiency despite the ball movement issues and are 25th defensively. Melo at the 4 and Lance at the 5 With O'Quinn and Hernongomez backing them up probably fixes this short-term, although you'd have to surround that with perimeter guys that can defend.
It seems like the Melo, KP, LT, CLee and Rose lineup helps with the defensive issues! We've gotta see how it works over a period of time but it like looked better.
mid-season. He could care less if it would've helped the Knicks get a higher draft pick.
That being said, find it hard to believe he won't waive it in the off-season. His kid will be out of school for the summer. He'll find out what his buddies Paul & Wade are doing. Also like Rose, doesn't appear he'll ever get on board with the triangle.
Too bad bc the triangle offense would help Melo become a more efficient & complete player.
Also saw Robin Lopez & Jerian Grant contributing nicely last night in a win against OKC.
Like I said, Knicks are over-complicating things.
TLover wrote:Not to rub salt in the wound but Hardaway scored 30 plus points against Cavs tonight.
Also saw Robin Lopez & Jerian Grant contributing nicely last night in a win against OKC.Like I said, Knicks are over-complicating things.
Who cares? Tim Jr is just an average back up SG. Lopez is just an average C (who Bulls fans are not impressed with). Grant is just a below average backup PG- none would be game changers for us. Still, hopefully going forward we keep all the players we pick regardless of whether they have a ropey year or two.
TLover wrote:I'd rather have Tim Hardaway,Jr & Robin Lopez going into next season than Rose & Noah.
I'm hoping we get to DRAFT even better players than any of them!!! 
TLover wrote:I'd rather have Tim Hardaway,Jr & Robin Lopez going into next season than Rose & Noah.
How much are you paying Tim Jr? He's coming up to money-time
nixluva wrote:TLover wrote:I'd rather have Tim Hardaway,Jr & Robin Lopez going into next season than Rose & Noah.I'm hoping we get to DRAFT even better players than any of them!!!
And that is not a reason to have traded Lopez/Grant for Rose/Noah.
Noah may not play 82 games in his 4 year contract. Lopez will play that many this year.
Lopez/Grant, this year's draft pick and cap room vs. the disaster we have now.