Knicks · The smaller moves the smarter moves (page 2)

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

But a all out youth movement who take years upon years. Phil has already use 46 different players in 3 seasons. The most in the NBA in the same time frame. The goal is to find out what melo wants to do?

small moves are the better option

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

But a all out youth movement who take years upon years. Phil has already use 46 different players in 3 seasons. The most in the NBA in the same time frame. The goal is to find out what melo wants to do?

small moves are the better option

First off no one said anything about a FULL ON youth movement. This ain't Philly! This team has some vets but a New Wave of young players are on the way! I don't know how this hasn't sunk into your view of what is happening with this team. IMO this team is going to get younger this summer and that is only the logical thing to do.

It's not likely that Phil will completely strip the team again. It's not necessary at this point. However, I don't expect anymore old vet signings like we did last summer.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

But a all out youth movement who take years upon years. Phil has already use 46 different players in 3 seasons. The most in the NBA in the same time frame. The goal is to find out what melo wants to do?

small moves are the better option

First off no one said anything about a FULL ON youth movement. This ain't Philly! This team has some vets but a New Wave of young players are on the way! I don't know how this hasn't sunk into your view of what is happening with this team. IMO this team is going to get younger this summer and that is only the logical thing to do.

It's not likely that Phil will completely strip the team again. It's not necessary at this point. However, I don't expect anymore old vet signings like we did last summer.

It certainly will be interesting. Young guys on the bubble in my opinion, Kuz, Holiday, Ndour. I think O'Quinn probably gets traded. Does Phil go draft and stash with the two second round picks? Is Rose brought back. I don't think anything is set. I hope the Knicks don't have 5 centers on the roster next year and I would like to see Sasha leave or join the coaching staff.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

But a all out youth movement who take years upon years. Phil has already use 46 different players in 3 seasons. The most in the NBA in the same time frame. The goal is to find out what melo wants to do?

small moves are the better option

First off no one said anything about a FULL ON youth movement. This ain't Philly! This team has some vets but a New Wave of young players are on the way! I don't know how this hasn't sunk into your view of what is happening with this team. IMO this team is going to get younger this summer and that is only the logical thing to do.

It's not likely that Phil will completely strip the team again. It's not necessary at this point. However, I don't expect anymore old vet signings like we did last summer.

It certainly will be interesting. Young guys on the bubble in my opinion, Kuz, Holiday, Ndour. I think O'Quinn probably gets traded. Does Phil go draft and stash with the two second round picks? Is Rose brought back. I don't think anything is set. I hope the Knicks don't have 5 centers on the roster next year and I would like to see Sasha leave or join the coaching staff.

I am pretty high on Kuz, he needs consistent minutes and some plays called for him. He basically needs confidence. He is the best at moving without the ball that I have seen from any Knick in many many years. He is long lean and fluid and I think he is also very competitive. I definitely hope we keep him. He should be our starting SF next season, heck I think he should start for the rest of this season as well. Bring Melo off the bench. The "threeuro frontline" - there I coined it.

And along the same lines as the original post but one step further let's stay focused in the draft. Avoid players who have ball hog, no-defense written all over them. smart tough competitive should be key traits. Not just vertical leap

Yep leave cap flexibility to absorb a bad contract in a trade for multiple draft picks

BRIGGS wrote:Unless you are getting an LBJ Dwayne Wade Kwami Leonard type--dont spend big bucks.

Use the draft and be smart with free agency. Use the D league and smaller trades.

Im not fooled by our performance against Orlando--but you can see the bones of what could be if we stay down a certain path

You might have to until you build up a base of drafted players and solid role player contracts. You have to keep flexibility while meeting the NBA salary requirements therefore short term deals and rolling over the roster.

Knixkik wrote:Completely agree. Also, adding to that, continuity should be a factor. We can't turn over 80% of the roster each season.

Players like Holiday are great when you pay them like what the Knicks are now. You want this production from late first round picks, and 2nd round picks. Once they hit FA and make 12 million a year they are no longer an asset but a negative Return on Investment.

nixluva wrote:

fishmike wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:If I am the knicks I would not pick up anyone in FA over 26 y/o so that means Holiday would not be resigned. I would try to trade Lee and Melo and just pick up some vet minimum deals while saving cap space.

Holiday... depends on the deal. I suspect he chases a contract in NO to play with his brother. If he was open to staying here (he's an RFA) I have mixed feelings. He will probably hurt to lose a bit. He plays D, moves the ball, hits the 3… he’s a nice bench player. Bottom line I guess is I agree with yellow… especially considering he’s probably not a starter why retain him? He’s probably a MLE type player, but why pay $8mm a year for Holiday when you can either save the cap space or use that for an EU player who’s probably better? Kuz makes $3mm. Why pay Holiday more? I think he’s a casualty.

I do believe that Phil may now get the value of going with lower cost options for non starting level players. Holiday is a nice piece but can we find comparable ability for less? In any event we've learned a lot over the course of this year's experiment. Most importantly there's NO NEED to spend like we did for vets last summer. They did not lead to WINS and we seem to be better when the kids play.

I agree you spend cap wisely. I think the sort of moves Phil should look at is what he did in 2015, not 2016. He went for Rolo on a longterm deal, and it was a good investment. He got a starting level C for a bargain. Easy to trade and an asset. Obviously we traded him. DWill and Afflalo's contracts were nice as well. Not maybe good enough players for us, but they came at a good price.

I don't mind moves like Lee, though, He has shown to be an asset to this team and will be easily moved in a trade. Noah is the type of move you avoid at all costs. An injury prone player on decline who you hope will get back to his best but never will. That's a bad investment at that price.

Outside of Noah I like the free agency moves so far

These guys are easily movable in a trade or can be quality role players and we used capspace to sign them:

Lee 12$M a year
Thomas 5$M a year
O'Quinn $4,5M a year
Willy $2M a year
Kuz $2M a year

Outside of Noah Phil has done exactly what this thread asks. The Noah contract is the really bad one. I don't think we get out of that one for 2 more years. The other thing is Melo and Rose make a combine $47M I believe. That can change this summer. Rose is a free agent. Melo may be traded. Believe it or not, if we trade Melo to the Clippers for Rivers, capspace (Jamal gets send to a third team attached to a few second round picks) and a first round pick, our highest paid player will be Noah and the cap situation looks real good moving forward.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Who's Kwami Leonard?

Kawhi's 2nd cousin removed from the mother's aunt's side from trini with a half brother.

i do agree that we do not need to spend big money...Lee's contract is reasonable in today's terms for what he does. High character / caliber players instead of prima donnas. There's 2 on our team in Melo and Rose, and presumably there will be 1 left this offseason. We do not need another.

nyknickzingis wrote:I agree you spend cap wisely. I think the sort of moves Phil should look at is what he did in 2015, not 2016. He went for Rolo on a longterm deal, and it was a good investment. He got a starting level C for a bargain. Easy to trade and an asset. Obviously we traded him. DWill and Afflalo's contracts were nice as well. Not maybe good enough players for us, but they came at a good price.

I don't mind moves like Lee, though, He has shown to be an asset to this team and will be easily moved in a trade. Noah is the type of move you avoid at all costs. An injury prone player on decline who you hope will get back to his best but never will. That's a bad investment at that price.

Outside of Noah I like the free agency moves so far

These guys are easily movable in a trade or can be quality role players and we used capspace to sign them:

Lee 12$M a year
Thomas 5$M a year
O'Quinn $4,5M a year
Willy $2M a year
Kuz $2M a year

Outside of Noah Phil has done exactly what this thread asks. The Noah contract is the really bad one. I don't think we get out of that one for 2 more years. The other thing is Melo and Rose make a combine $47M I believe. That can change this summer. Rose is a free agent. Melo may be traded. Believe it or not, if we trade Melo to the Clippers for Rivers, capspace (Jamal gets send to a third team attached to a few second round picks) and a first round pick, our highest paid player will be Noah and the cap situation looks real good moving forward.

Technically Melo was an FA as well, and I give Phil an F- on that. Part of me wants to believe that keeping Melo on his terms was the price he had to pay Dolan to gain full control over the Knicks. But there's no hard evidence for that.

Other than that I agree.

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

But a all out youth movement who take years upon years. Phil has already use 46 different players in 3 seasons. The most in the NBA in the same time frame. The goal is to find out what melo wants to do?

small moves are the better option

First off no one said anything about a FULL ON youth movement. This ain't Philly! This team has some vets but a New Wave of young players are on the way! I don't know how this hasn't sunk into your view of what is happening with this team. IMO this team is going to get younger this summer and that is only the logical thing to do.

It's not likely that Phil will completely strip the team again. It's not necessary at this point. However, I don't expect anymore old vet signings like we did last summer.

It certainly will be interesting. Young guys on the bubble in my opinion, Kuz, Holiday, Ndour. I think O'Quinn probably gets traded. Does Phil go draft and stash with the two second round picks? Is Rose brought back. I don't think anything is set. I hope the Knicks don't have 5 centers on the roster next year and I would like to see Sasha leave or join the coaching staff.

I am pretty high on Kuz, he needs consistent minutes and some plays called for him. He basically needs confidence. He is the best at moving without the ball that I have seen from any Knick in many many years. He is long lean and fluid and I think he is also very competitive. I definitely hope we keep him. He should be our starting SF next season, heck I think he should start for the rest of this season as well. Bring Melo off the bench. The "threeuro frontline" - there I coined it.

That's a lot of love for Kuz who hasn't really been all that good especially the last month or so. I like him but he's definitely not starter material. I'm actually surprised that some of you are saying you wouldn't re-sign J.Holiday. I really like him and he's the one that should be getting more playing time. He play both sides of the floor and would love to see him, C.Lee and L.Thomas on the floor more together in small ball lineups.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

I don't get this continually tired line of logic. What Melo seriously should consider is going where to win now? He could have been third cog in the Harden Show, but passed that up. LA is going nowhere now, fast. Where else is he going to win now, in your estimation of what's best for Melo? Some other youth movement? I'm sure Melo stays up at night pining to live and end his career in someplace like Minnesota or Boston. Maybe it would be "best" for Melo to be an overpaid benchwarmer for San Tone, right? Suggest anything as long as he leaves, when he doesn't, lather, rinse, repeat.

And aren't we already in a youth movement? Rose is 28 and he's one of the oldest players on the floor right now.

The NTC is going nowhere. Melo will wait for Phil to move on before he lets The-Ring-King-of-The-Offense-We-Do-Not-Speak-Of run him out of where he wants to be right now.

Cartman718 wrote:i do agree that we do not need to spend big money...Lee's contract is reasonable in today's terms for what he does. High character / caliber players instead of prima donnas. There's 2 on our team in Melo and Rose, and presumably there will be 1 left this offseason. We do not need another.

Are you kidding me, in this dysfunctional franchise with no direction, no loyalty and president that doesn't speak other to publicly ridicule his best players. We'll be over paying or signing d leaguers.

I really don't expect us to be good any time soon

Yep. I think most Knicks fans here agree. We have known this for yrs

Phil's moves for lesser unknown players have been their best so far.

knicks1248 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:i do agree that we do not need to spend big money...Lee's contract is reasonable in today's terms for what he does. High character / caliber players instead of prima donnas. There's 2 on our team in Melo and Rose, and presumably there will be 1 left this offseason. We do not need another.

Are you kidding me, in this dysfunctional franchise with no direction, no loyalty and president that doesn't speak other to publicly ridicule his best players. We'll be over paying or signing d leaguers.

I really don't expect us to be good any time soon

deliberately fiscally responsible is the way to go considering most players look at knicks as cash cow.

knicks1248 wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:i do agree that we do not need to spend big money...Lee's contract is reasonable in today's terms for what he does. High character / caliber players instead of prima donnas. There's 2 on our team in Melo and Rose, and presumably there will be 1 left this offseason. We do not need another.

Are you kidding me, in this dysfunctional franchise with no direction, no loyalty and president that doesn't speak other to publicly ridicule his best players. We'll be over paying or signing d leaguers.

I really don't expect us to be good any time soon

shocker

newyorker4ever wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wow... I totally thought this was going to be a Seth Curry plug.

That being said I not only agree but would take it a step further. Look to move Melo this offseason and go into next offseason with substantial cap space. I would not bring Rose back either. Go with Randle, Baker, whoever we draft and can bring in. Develop a real young core of players. Keep the cap space. The real offseason is after next year, where the Knicks will have KP, Willy and this year's pick under rookie deals. Ideally you look to sell a pair of elite FAs to play with KP/Willy/prospect etc...

If the Knicks execute this offseason they could be looking at a liquid roster of good young players and over $50mm in cap space. Of course that puts Phil and "execute" in the same sentence. Hopefully we get another KP type player. Plenty of boos followed by great play

I WISH you and other people would stop saying this, because you make it seem like management holds the cards.. It's like saying if we can get trump out of office by the end of the year will be a better country.

It should be "IF melo waives his NTC" which all signs are pointing to him NOT doing that.

I think Melo might waive his NTC if Phil makes it clear he's going to focus on a youth movement. Melo should seriously consider a better situation for him to win now.

But a all out youth movement who take years upon years. Phil has already use 46 different players in 3 seasons. The most in the NBA in the same time frame. The goal is to find out what melo wants to do?

small moves are the better option

First off no one said anything about a FULL ON youth movement. This ain't Philly! This team has some vets but a New Wave of young players are on the way! I don't know how this hasn't sunk into your view of what is happening with this team. IMO this team is going to get younger this summer and that is only the logical thing to do.

It's not likely that Phil will completely strip the team again. It's not necessary at this point. However, I don't expect anymore old vet signings like we did last summer.

It certainly will be interesting. Young guys on the bubble in my opinion, Kuz, Holiday, Ndour. I think O'Quinn probably gets traded. Does Phil go draft and stash with the two second round picks? Is Rose brought back. I don't think anything is set. I hope the Knicks don't have 5 centers on the roster next year and I would like to see Sasha leave or join the coaching staff.

I am pretty high on Kuz, he needs consistent minutes and some plays called for him. He basically needs confidence. He is the best at moving without the ball that I have seen from any Knick in many many years. He is long lean and fluid and I think he is also very competitive. I definitely hope we keep him. He should be our starting SF next season, heck I think he should start for the rest of this season as well. Bring Melo off the bench. The "threeuro frontline" - there I coined it.

That's a lot of love for Kuz who hasn't really been all that good especially the last month or so. I like him but he's definitely not starter material. I'm actually surprised that some of you are saying you wouldn't re-sign J.Holiday. I really like him and he's the one that should be getting more playing time. He play both sides of the floor and would love to see him, C.Lee and L.Thomas on the floor more together in small ball lineups.

He is not a starter on a good team. On a rebuilding team people like him should be allowed to start to see what they can bring and if they can develop different facets of their game to meet the NBA skill test. Not all draft picks or FA signings will be made to order starters. We need to develop players - In his case he should play more D and hit his 3pointers consistently. We will need to have a good SF (Starter or backup) depending on what we draft.

I definitely want Justin and Lee back

Whether Melo moves is immaterial, we just shouldn't plan anything that includes him.