Knicks · Begley: PJax teaching some Knicks guards the triangle yesterday (page 4)

KNICKSdom wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:So if Randle Baker Lee and guys like that are likely back next year know the offense well it's a bad thing?

I guess it depends on your perspective. Should Jeff be coaching the team without interference? Is Rambis coaching the triangle in practice and the defense not enough for Phil? Should Phil be scouting college players in March instead of teaching the triangle when he has a coach in place and he put his best friend on the staff as the top assistant?

What if Jeff asked Phil? What if Phil and Jeff were talking and the topic came up and Phil volunteered?

One of the best fucking coaches of all time and people have a problem with him dipping into practice to run a few sets? What is wrong with this? Are we so jaded?

yea.. see my comment. Guy's one of the best coaches in pro sports ever and people are worried about him talking to the players. Yes.. its come to this.

Yea let Phil do his thing. Some folks make it sound like it is a bad thing. This is Phil, anyone seen this man coach before? He got any rings?

I have no problem with him coaching. I would like for him to work on his gm game. Seventy five wins in three years so far, three coaches and 46 players isn't a great start.

martin wrote:The NYPost and NYDailyNew have some of you sooooo jaded. Anything and everything the Knicks do is to undermined someone, especially Phil undermining either Melo or Jeff.

The Knicks second unit turning a 14 point deficit into a tie game... AHHHH the Knicks are undermining Melo! LOOK AT HIS MINUTES, THEY ARE SITTING HIM TOO LONG!!! (in a game where he played 35 minutes). This is something the the NY Daily News wrote about... while also admitting it was the smart thing to do.

It's insane.

Also they blasted us for losing because Phil should be winning, then blasted us for winning because it impacts our draft pick. They blast Phil for tearing it down in 2015 saying he made the team worse(which was the whole idea when he traded away JR and Shump), but then love KP (who we only got by committing to tearing it all down). Basically all the beat writers are p'ed off with Phil because he mocks them and doesn't talk to them anymore, so they are all actively campaigning against him.

Phil takes the heat off Dolan. That's why Dolan likes paying him $12M a year. It has nothing to do with what Phil can do as an executive. Phil thus far has been an average executive. Not league worst, not horrible, because he did take care of the draft, draft very well with KP/Willy and also took care of the cap well for the longrun. Look at the Nets, that's horrible. But far from good has Phil been.

Dolan pays Phil 6 times the money a normal executive would get is because Phil takes all the heat. That's why Phil is happy being bashed by the media and Dolan is happy with Phil regardless of the job he does on the court

If Knicks make the playoffs before Phil's 5 year deal, I think Dolan extends him 2 more years. Other than this Oakley incident, Dolan's not been the target of anything the last few years. All on Phil.

martin wrote:The NYPost and NYDailyNew have some of you sooooo jaded. Anything and everything the Knicks do is to undermined someone, especially Phil undermining either Melo or Jeff.

The Knicks second unit turning a 14 point deficit into a tie game... AHHHH the Knicks are undermining Melo! LOOK AT HIS MINUTES, THEY ARE SITTING HIM TOO LONG!!! (in a game where he played 35 minutes). This is something the the NY Daily News wrote about... while also admitting it was the smart thing to do.

It's insane.

Forget the Newspapers, would you believe it if it came directly from Derek Fisher?

Fisher said Jackson’s presence and insistence on running the triangle offense made it challenging for the players to understand who was coaching the team.....
“One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher said. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it — and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it — I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand ‘who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?’ ”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball...

"Guys," Hornacek said, "don't like to run it."
...
"I think that's where most people are coming from," Hornacek said. "If you end up being a slowdown team and never end up getting easy buckets and you're running that halfcourt set all the time... guys, first of all, don't like to run it.
"But secondly, it makes it very difficult to get easy buckets early in the offense and I think in today's game those early buckets are nice to get. We're not running it every time. We're mixing it here and there. Hopefully, for us it's a good thing we can do when we need to execute a play on a dead ball that we have something to go to."

Does this quote sound like a ringing endorsement of the Triangle from Hornacek?

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/knicks...

Uptown wrote:
"Guys," Hornacek said, "don't like to run it."
...
"I think that's where most people are coming from," Hornacek said. "If you end up being a slowdown team and never end up getting easy buckets and you're running that halfcourt set all the time... guys, first of all, don't like to run it.
"But secondly, it makes it very difficult to get easy buckets early in the offense and I think in today's game those early buckets are nice to get. We're not running it every time. We're mixing it here and there. Hopefully, for us it's a good thing we can do when we need to execute a play on a dead ball that we have something to go to."

Does this quote sound like a ringing endorsement of the Triangle from Hornacek?

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/knicks...

Jeff was supposed to be here to help modernize the offense and tweak the Triangle by adding a mix of common modern basketball concepts into the overall Triangle. He didn't really push the Triangle early on, but they always used a little of it. His version has a bit more of an emphasis on greater spacing and attacking earlier in the possession. Jeff is right that there are times when it makes sense to use the Triangle and then others were you really want to just push and get early offense. You can certainly do that with the Triangle as part of the system. The Spurs mixed in Triangle with ease over the years. Thibs mixed in Triangle during his run with the Bulls. Lots of teams use aspects of the Triangle.

As long as Jeff is the coach I think the players will have a voice in how the team plays and that's a good thing!!!

You guys do realize that they are implementing this "more advanced" triangle stuff for tanking purposes. Who restructures their offense with 75% of the season over. They want to run more triangle next year for sure, but this is all about tanking.

I love how every time Phil focuses on the triangle or visits practice, the team immediately looks ten times worse. So good for the tank

Does any other team in the league have so many beat writers constantly harp on about and run stories about the system they run? Its soooooooooo boring

The Triangle looked good for the first 3 quarters. 4th Quarter, the team went cold. The bench really played poor. They also ran the offense weird, they got KP only one shot the entire 4th, even though going into the 4th quarter he was the team's best player on offense for that night (18 points, 7/15 shooting up to that point).

I don't really understand the big deal with the team trying this right now. We're out of the playoffs and looking to see who can be a good system player moving forward. Lots of teams run elements of the Triangle and use the fundamentals of it to run their teams.

I highly doubt next season at season's start Hornachek will be running 90% Triangle. However if his team knows the Triangle well already, the 50% or so they run it, they will be better for it. Phil brought in Hornachek to give more than Triangle to the team, There will be fastbreaking, pick and rolls, and other offense.

The other thing is that a good system gets you good shots. Lots of open looks. So far I've seen the Triangle do that for the team. We're not playing as fast or shooting as early but more than anything I think the team's problems are on defense, They don't defend.

I don't like the Willy/KP/Melo lineup on D. Really slow footed and poor on rotations.

It also seems Rose's play was a fluke. He has reverted back to himself. There were 2 weeks I was really impressed. He was playing hard on defense, he was looking for the open man on drives. His passing connection percentage was up. All gone. He's missing wide open teammates. When he tries to get the ball to someone, it's a bad pass. He's always lookiing to shoot.

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crzymdups wrote:

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ouch.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:The NYPost and NYDailyNew have some of you sooooo jaded. Anything and everything the Knicks do is to undermined someone, especially Phil undermining either Melo or Jeff.

The Knicks second unit turning a 14 point deficit into a tie game... AHHHH the Knicks are undermining Melo! LOOK AT HIS MINUTES, THEY ARE SITTING HIM TOO LONG!!! (in a game where he played 35 minutes). This is something the the NY Daily News wrote about... while also admitting it was the smart thing to do.

It's insane.

Forget the Newspapers, would you believe it if it came directly from Derek Fisher?

Fisher said Jackson’s presence and insistence on running the triangle offense made it challenging for the players to understand who was coaching the team.....
“One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher said. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it — and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it — I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand ‘who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?’ ”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball...

It's exactly this. He tried to undermine Fisher. Fisher resisted and got fired.

He's undermined Hornacek completely at this point.

I have no idea where we go from here.

Porzingis likes the Triangle and has been better since we ran more Triangle. He gets the ball more, especially in the post because you need to run up and get inside to fill in the 5 spots to form the Triangle spacing. KP's in the post much more. I don't think he has a problem with the Triangle at all.

The quote from KP means that as a unit they don't run it or know it all that well. However the team still easily puts up so many points. They form the spacing of the Triangle and then go to work. They easily drop enough points to win games.

Yet they don't do what has plagued them all season.

Defend.

KP and everyone should be up in arms about defense. Of all the teams out of the playoffs in the East, we are the team with the highest scoring average. This on a team that has not played very smart on offense. To still be crying about the offense is ridiculous. The Knicks problems all season have been poor defense. They never had great offense, but the offense was still enough to be a playoff team. Their defense has been bottom 5 all year.

I believe it's all about player habits and goals. Our 3 best players are Melo, KP and Rose. All 3 are offensive minded. All 3 want to score. None of them are looking to play a Draymond Green role, or a role like Kawahi Leonard or any role where it's a guy who gives his all to make great defensive plays and to pass consistently to set up teammates.

Phil hasn't ruined the season. Come on, that's foolish. Phil hired Hornachek because Phil saw the need to have more creativity than Rambis and more than the Triangle. The team just has too many players starting who care about offense first, second and third. Defense is like a part time hobby.

Like take tonight's starting 5. Willy can't defend. Has lots of work to do. KP's a great rim protector but he can't defend quick 4's to save his life. Melo's awful at defending most 3's or quicker 3's. Rose's defense is a joke, especially when he decides to go under screens again and again.

Team needs character and toughness in the starting 5. Guys like O'Quinn, Thomas, Lee, Baker. These guys play defense with some effort. Unfortunately they don't have a starting level role on a good team on offense. Perhap Lee and Thomas could, since they both can hit outside shots with consistency.

Next season unless we get much better defenders, I plan my starting 5 with KP at the 5, Thomas as our 3 and Lee as our 2. That shouldn't even be in debate. As of today, those 3 have to start at those spots for us to have any sense of defensive balance.

crzymdups wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:The NYPost and NYDailyNew have some of you sooooo jaded. Anything and everything the Knicks do is to undermined someone, especially Phil undermining either Melo or Jeff.

The Knicks second unit turning a 14 point deficit into a tie game... AHHHH the Knicks are undermining Melo! LOOK AT HIS MINUTES, THEY ARE SITTING HIM TOO LONG!!! (in a game where he played 35 minutes). This is something the the NY Daily News wrote about... while also admitting it was the smart thing to do.

It's insane.

Forget the Newspapers, would you believe it if it came directly from Derek Fisher?

Fisher said Jackson’s presence and insistence on running the triangle offense made it challenging for the players to understand who was coaching the team.....
“One of the challenges for all of us was we were in the basketball department under the umbrella of Phil Jackson and who he was and who he is and what he was able to do as coach and leader,” Fisher said. “Then [when you’re] asking me as a head coach in a sense not to create the same results, but take the same system or way of playing and try and teach these guys how to play it — and utilize it in similar ways as when he taught it — I think at times it was more challenging for our players to really understand ‘who am I committing myself to? Who am I selling myself to? Who am I running through the brick wall for?’ ”

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball...

It's exactly this. He tried to undermine Fisher. Fisher resisted and got fired.

He's undermined Hornacek completely at this point.

I have no idea where we go from here.

It seems to me that Hornacek was told in his interview that wont be forced to run the triangle, as long as runs a system. Phil even said one of the reasons he liked Hornacek was because he played in a great system in Utah. To appease phil, Hornacek ran some triangle out of timeouts and out of bounds plays....That seemed to be the compromise. Now phil is meddling and seems like he wants the triangle all the time. But why now? It causes more confusion with the players as KP stated.

This is a F&*%ing mess. Hopefully, phil opts out this summer and Melo goes with him. But thats too much to ask for with this franchise.

You say its a mess but I think that we are getting closer to becoming a terrific team with each new loss. We'll have one or two young new studs in the draft and maybe a good pickup or two in free agency. Plus Willy, KP, Randle and Baker will be a year older. We need to be patient because we'll be good soon.

From the coach (clearly he's just being a good company man )

Some perceived that workout as Jackson intruding on Hornacek's duties as coach, but Hornacek doesn't see it that way.

"No. We talk about stuff all the time," Hornacek said of Jackson. "So when he comes out and demonstrates for the guys, he's so used to being out on the court it's probably fun for him to do. And the guys get another look at it from a guy who has run it for years and years, so it's good."