That's the season after the 54 win season... we won 37 games that year. We had the same roster minus all the 40 year old alpha male babysitter club. That to me was the worst year of all because we didn't even have a 2014 first round pick. That wasn't on Phil's watch so you would have to blame someone else for that.
Everyone is saying the Knicks can't even tank right this season but we did get Kristaps in 2015 by dumping players for nothing and relying on Lou Amondson and Lance Thomas to play heavy minutes.
This year we know what it is... Melo got old. Rose sucks. Team has no leadership... Brandon Jennings said that going out the door. We are tanking cuz if we were trying to win we would have gotten Rubio and started playing the youth. We're getting a top lottery pick and our cap is fine... this is no way the worst season and no way Phil is just dogging it. It is what it is. This is a rebuild
This is worse because Phil turned the roster over and paid big bucks for Noah, Lee, Rose.
He thought he had players that could win.
Yes we have our picks and a bit of cap room, though we must wait and see what happens with Rose.
How can we trust Phil to build a winner if he thought he had one this year?
Luck in the draft does not overcome poor judgement as exercised with Noah, Lee, Rose failure.
franco12 wrote:This is worse because Phil turned the roster over and paid big bucks for Noah, Lee, Rose.He thought he had players that could win.
Yes we have our picks and a bit of cap room, though we must wait and see what happens with Rose.
How can we trust Phil to build a winner if he thought he had one this year?
Luck in the draft does not overcome poor judgement as exercised with Noah, Lee, Rose failure.
I'm sorry dude but Layden and Isiah did far worse than Noah and Lee with any expiring Rose. Its not even a blip inn the radar
That season was much worse. We didn't have a saving grace, such as KP to fall back on. Now we have him in addition to another potential franchise player coming.
No brainer.
EnySpree wrote:franco12 wrote:This is worse because Phil turned the roster over and paid big bucks for Noah, Lee, Rose.He thought he had players that could win.
Yes we have our picks and a bit of cap room, though we must wait and see what happens with Rose.
How can we trust Phil to build a winner if he thought he had one this year?
Luck in the draft does not overcome poor judgement as exercised with Noah, Lee, Rose failure.
I'm sorry dude but Layden and Isiah did far worse than Noah and Lee with any expiring Rose. Its not even a blip inn the radar
You asked if this was worse than 2013/14.
Not is Phil worse than Isiah or Layden.
I honestly forget what my expectations were going in to 2013/14. Maybe I could look it up here, and remind myself.
It's been so many brutal years, like torture, you try to forget to cope.
I'm just saying that 37 wins coming off a highly successful season is not as bad as year 3 of Phil's effort to rebuild where he made marquee moves & had undoubtedly expectations that with his talent infusion, we'd be at least a passable to watch team.
This season has been like a bad horror movie. Ugly to watch at every turn.
And that is NOT what Phil expected.
So I ask you, how do you trust his judgement, when he erred so badly?
You can point to 2 draft picks and a couple undrafted players that have thrived when given the opportunity because they're playing on a team bereft of talent.
Right now, Phil is bottom third, maybe even bottom 10th of execs in this league.
franco12 wrote:EnySpree wrote:franco12 wrote:This is worse because Phil turned the roster over and paid big bucks for Noah, Lee, Rose.He thought he had players that could win.
Yes we have our picks and a bit of cap room, though we must wait and see what happens with Rose.
How can we trust Phil to build a winner if he thought he had one this year?
Luck in the draft does not overcome poor judgement as exercised with Noah, Lee, Rose failure.
I'm sorry dude but Layden and Isiah did far worse than Noah and Lee with any expiring Rose. Its not even a blip inn the radar
You asked if this was worse than 2013/14.
You right I did ask that. Carry on
Nothing was worse than the Isiah years when no picks, no cap space existed.
Hope exists with a pick, cap space, willy and KP. Melo if traded will have some value. Melo as he is does not add to winning currently.
Rose health has exceeded expectations but his play does not.
Knicks have players that reject playing team ball. Some of you blame the triangle, but isn't it just that its players who don't hustle off the ball to get open? Play defense?
Its antiquated because the modern player is lazy? Disinterested?
Winning teams are not those things.
I'd rather fail striving for the culture we seek in the short term than succumb to mediocrity.
Hard to say this is worse when the 54 win season was followed by 37! That just shouldn't happen. This season was much less certain given the injury history of Noah and Rose. There was no way to know exactly how that would work out. Noah didn't make it but Rose did. Melo and Rose simply don't make enough of an impact. No team can win if two of the top 3 players aren't making a net Positive impact.
Melo is a -3.1
Rose is a -2.6
No team can win if the players that handle the ball the most are both negative impact players!!!
franco12 wrote:This is worse because Phil turned the roster over and paid big bucks for Noah, Lee, Rose.He thought he had players that could win.
Yes we have our picks and a bit of cap room, though we must wait and see what happens with Rose.
How can we trust Phil to build a winner if he thought he had one this year?
Luck in the draft does not overcome poor judgement as exercised with Noah, Lee, Rose failure.
Lee is playing great for us. Rose was always a rental. Noah was a bad signing on paper, but IMO Jax signed him for his intangibles, and possibly to become an asst coach after the contract. He's got abundant leadership qualities, which as we all know is somewhat rare in the NBA. Once Melo and Rose are gone, Noah's impact on Willy and KP will become apparent. And then we will be lauding the deal.
If noah had any part in Willy's development, he was not a total disaster.
Nalod wrote:If noah had any part in Willy's development, he was not a total disaster.
I think you sign a player mostly for their individual impact on the court but with Noah I wouldn't be surprised if the intent was to also provide a KG-like mentor for KP and Willy.
Rose was able to bounce back from his injuries, let's hope Noah can continue.
I've brought this up before: I do believe Noah had some personal off-court issues that remain out of the newspapers - thank god - and may have distracted him enough. And then his knee. He is a warrior and played through cause of the newly signed contract but he may have been suffering from that all along. Knee problems lead to hamstring problems and vice versa. Hope he finds health.
Nope 2013-14 was way worse because I had deluded myself into thinking we had turned the corner the year before. Also we had to deal with the trauma of the Bargs trade and the loss of a pick for ABSOLUTE GARBAGE! I hated having Bargs on the team- his vacant stare drained my will to live. All we had to look forward to was the 24th pick. This year we have a top 10 pick, and hopefully a future with KP and Willy, so it greatly eases the pain. 2013-2014 felt like the dying of the light- the end of that Knick team with nothing ahead or to build on.
there was no silver lining that year...at least now our future frontcourt is kinda set. Lee is a keeper need a PG who can defend and make plays...hopefully this draft will net us one.
This is better because we have Willy and KP and a top ten pick. Last season was brutal for me because there was no pick and they fired fisher. I'm not sure I'm sold on Hornacek yet, but I'd say he deserves a few more years and we have our picks. It's time for a true rebuild. If we can get something for Melo this summer, all the better.
The Knicks cap is not in good shape
EnySpree wrote:That's the season after the 54 win season... we won 37 games that year. We had the same roster minus all the 40 year old alpha male babysitter club. That to me was the worst year of all because we didn't even have a 2014 first round pick. That wasn't on Phil's watch so you would have to blame someone else for that. Everyone is saying the Knicks can't even tank right this season but we did get Kristaps in 2015 by dumping players for nothing and relying on Lou Amondson and Lance Thomas to play heavy minutes.
This year we know what it is... Melo got old. Rose sucks. Team has no leadership... Brandon Jennings said that going out the door. We are tanking cuz if we were trying to win we would have gotten Rubio and started playing the youth. We're getting a top lottery pick and our cap is fine... this is no way the worst season and no way Phil is just dogging it. It is what it is. This is a rebuild
Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks cap is not in good shapeEnySpree wrote:That's the season after the 54 win season... we won 37 games that year. We had the same roster minus all the 40 year old alpha male babysitter club. That to me was the worst year of all because we didn't even have a 2014 first round pick. That wasn't on Phil's watch so you would have to blame someone else for that. Everyone is saying the Knicks can't even tank right this season but we did get Kristaps in 2015 by dumping players for nothing and relying on Lou Amondson and Lance Thomas to play heavy minutes.
This year we know what it is... Melo got old. Rose sucks. Team has no leadership... Brandon Jennings said that going out the door. We are tanking cuz if we were trying to win we would have gotten Rubio and started playing the youth. We're getting a top lottery pick and our cap is fine... this is no way the worst season and no way Phil is just dogging it. It is what it is. This is a rebuild
Agree. 18 mil tied up with Noah, 44 mil tied up in Noah and Melo each of the next two years. You have to get it right when you sign guys to those deals.
EnySpree wrote:This is a rebuild
What's happening is not a rebuild.
A rebuild would have required
A) Phil Jackson immediately hiring a GM, a young guy with real front office experience from a winning franchise like the Spurs or Warriors with a possible long term future ahead of him, someone who had established relationships with officials, agents, scouts, sponsors, other front officer people, etc with some background in analytics and then Jackson would take a ceremonial role like Jerry West took with the Warriors
B) Trade Melo upon entry to the franchise
C) Trade Chandler, JR Smith and Shumpert for whatever you could get
D) Tank at every instance where it would be beneficial and practical
E) Avoid short term moves that might look good for marketing but bad for the long term outlook of the franchise
That would have been a "rebuild" and if the Knicks did it, would be in a better place for it.
Jackson has hurt this franchise and hurt it very badly. No, he's not Zeke, but some people want to ride the crappy reasoning that those are the only two possible outcomes, Jackson or something so horrible and worse that Jackson or anyone would look good in contrast. As if those were the only two viable options possible back then.
This current version of the Knicks is not a "rebuild", it's following the path of least resistance to an old man, who is cashing in on a Golden Parachute Knicks retirement plan.
CrushAlot wrote:Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks cap is not in good shapeEnySpree wrote:That's the season after the 54 win season... we won 37 games that year. We had the same roster minus all the 40 year old alpha male babysitter club. That to me was the worst year of all because we didn't even have a 2014 first round pick. That wasn't on Phil's watch so you would have to blame someone else for that. Everyone is saying the Knicks can't even tank right this season but we did get Kristaps in 2015 by dumping players for nothing and relying on Lou Amondson and Lance Thomas to play heavy minutes.
This year we know what it is... Melo got old. Rose sucks. Team has no leadership... Brandon Jennings said that going out the door. We are tanking cuz if we were trying to win we would have gotten Rubio and started playing the youth. We're getting a top lottery pick and our cap is fine... this is no way the worst season and no way Phil is just dogging it. It is what it is. This is a rebuild
Agree. 18 mil tied up with Noah, 44 mil tied up in Noah and Melo each of the next two years. You have to get it right when you sign guys to those deals.
Move Melo and the cap is in very good shape. Even keeping Melo we have a max slot to help facilitate trades with. Our key players going forward are on peanut contracts. Our role players are on good contracts. How much space do you think we need? When did this obsession with having no salary whatsoever on the cap creep in?
Hard to say. All of the seasons are just blending together into one big turd.
smackeddog wrote:Move Melo and the cap is in very good shape....
No, unfortunately, I'd argue that it's not. Not even close.
In order to trade Melo, to get him to waive his NTC and also the trade kicker would be an issue, the Knicks would have to take in at least one bad contract to make the salaries match. Again, he's not going to a gutted team and the few teams who he'd probably waive his NTC for have very limited options in terms of salary cap fits for a match that doesn't hurt their contender or close to contender status.
TripleThreat wrote:EnySpree wrote:This is a rebuild
What's happening is not a rebuild.
A rebuild would have required
A) Phil Jackson immediately hiring a GM, a young guy with real front office experience from a winning franchise like the Spurs or Warriors with a possible long term future ahead of him, someone who had established relationships with officials, agents, scouts, sponsors, other front officer people, etc with some background in analytics and then Jackson would take a ceremonial role like Jerry West took with the Warriors
B) Trade Melo upon entry to the franchise
C) Trade Chandler, JR Smith and Shumpert for whatever you could get
D) Tank at every instance where it would be beneficial and practical
E) Avoid short term moves that might look good for marketing but bad for the long term outlook of the franchise
That would have been a "rebuild" and if the Knicks did it, would be in a better place for it.
Jackson has hurt this franchise and hurt it very badly. No, he's not Zeke, but some people want to ride the crappy reasoning that those are the only two possible outcomes, Jackson or something so horrible and worse that Jackson or anyone would look good in contrast. As if those were the only two viable options possible back then.
This current version of the Knicks is not a "rebuild", it's following the path of least resistance to an old man, who is cashing in on a Golden Parachute Knicks retirement plan.
The GM is Mills. The Knicks have a capable Front Office and Scouting. The real difference will come when they can draft better talent. They're not getting that talent from any Trade or FA signing at this point. They're going to have to do this via Draft and UDFA's. Develop their own talent for a while.
Where is it written that there is only one set method to rebuild a team in the NBA? I don't think purity on what a rebuild should be is that important at this point. I'll tell you what is MOST important is lucking upon an impact player in the Draft. Nothing would make a bigger difference at this point than to add another STUD to this team and start to shape what this team is really going to be able to do. When it comes down to it, the start and end is finding Talent that moves the needle.
Yes this is a rebuild. Maybe not in the traditional sense but when you get right down to it, this team is going to get younger and hopefully more talented this summer. This team's youngest players will be the core of the team and thus THAT IS A REBUILD.
