Knicks · Opposing players have told Knicks players Triangle is predictable and one of the easiest defensive assignments in the league. (page 1)

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18941...

I know people get prickly about the Triangle, but this is incredibly damning.

Knicks players also saying to Begley that they think it produces too tight spacing and too many contested shots.

We've been told Phil would bring in veterans who would be suited to the Triangle. In three off seasons so far all the players he's brought in have not done well in the triangle, outside of maybe Rolo, who plays the same position as KP and Willy anyway.

I'm not looking to take down Phil or have that conversation again. But I think it certainly is worth asking why are we still committed to the Triangle? Even Hornacek didn't want to run it full time. At a certain point doesn't Phil need to agree to update or scrap the triangle? I thought we were told Hornacek would be allowed to update the Triangle, but that's been overruled.

I just question why at this point.

There was a lot in that article. I saw this yesterday and I think anytime a NY writer quotes 'sources' you have to have a filter and assume that it isn't true until you hear it and see it. Still...

Jackson and the Knicks have a mutual option after this season, and owner James Dolan has said that he will honor the final two years of Jackson's contract. But some around Dolan had been pushing him to consider making a change in recent months, according to sources.

CrushAlot wrote:There was a lot in that article. I saw this yesterday and I think anytime a NY writer quotes 'sources' you have to have a filter and assume that it isn't true until you hear it and see it. Still...

Jackson and the Knicks have a mutual option after this season, and owner James Dolan has said that he will honor the final two years of Jackson's contract. But some around Dolan had been pushing him to consider making a change in recent months, according to sources.

I wonder if that's Mills and his camp? We haven't heard much from Mills lately. Hard to know.

Look Phil has brought in some good young talent. I'd like to see him bring in a few good lottery picks in the coming years.

I do really question the triangle at this point though. It's a very valid point that the Knicks are probably not going to stick with the triangle after Phil leaves... so it kinda hurts the development of KP and Willy to stick with it and then ditch it in two years. I also really hope we never get to the point of making a lotto pick based on "triangle fit" rather than "best available"

crzymdups wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18941...

I know people get prickly about the Triangle, but this is incredibly damning.

Knicks players also saying to Begley that they think it produces too tight spacing and too many contested shots.

We've been told Phil would bring in veterans who would be suited to the Triangle. In three off seasons so far all the players he's brought in have not done well in the triangle, outside of maybe Rolo, who plays the same position as KP and Willy anyway.

I'm not looking to take down Phil or have that conversation again. But I think it certainly is worth asking why are we still committed to the Triangle? Even Hornacek didn't want to run it full time. At a certain point doesn't Phil need to agree to update or scrap the triangle? I thought we were told Hornacek would be allowed to update the Triangle, but that's been overruled.

I just question why at this point.

In this draft alone there are several players who FIT the Triangle. Josh Jackson is a perfect SF for the Triangle. He passes the ball well. Jason Tatum is a more Team Oriented version of Melo IMO. He would be effective in the Pinch Post. Lonzo Ball is also a Triangle Fit. Malik Monk and Frank Ntilikina are also Triangle Fits. I would say that even De'Aaron Fox would fit. So really there's no reason to fear the notion of looking for players that would do well in the Triangle. All that really means is that they can function well without depending on heavy PnR. They have a high BBIQ, pass the ball and defend. Those are all winning traits.

You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

If he were coaching it might not be so easy to defend.

CrushAlot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

If he were coaching it might not be so easy to defend.

I don't think it's that simple. The players you have running it must be smart enough to understand how to execute in it. One of the most important roles is the SF/PF in the Pinch Post spot. Melo occupies that spot the most and he isn't helping the flow of the offense as much as he could be.

Obviously this year wasn't an effort to establish a Pure Triangle Offense! Not with Rose and BJ at PG. I think now with Randle and Baker are giving the team a chance to establish the Triangle and they look much better in it than Rose. They still need more time to continue to develop their comfort and knowledge of the offense.

KP has started passing more and posting more since they started running more Triangle. Willy is already a bit more proficient as a Post big and I think he has great upside in this style. My hope is that if the Knicks move towards using more Triangle as it appears they are, that they still look to use early offense and different looks to keep the defense guessing.

As I've said many times there's more to the Triangle Offense than the Side Triangle!!!

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

Not to be overlooked, he had an all-time great at SG on both of those teams - possibly the two greatest shooting guards of all-time in MJ and Kobe. And he was actually coaching the team. Our teams have had Afflalo and CLee at SG - two solid players who should be the fifth best starter or a bench player on a good team.

If Fisher wasn't coaching the Triangle to his liking and Hornacek wasn't coaching the Triangle to his liking... I think a major question exists - can anyone coach the Triangle to Phil's liking? And if not, should he continue to force them to?

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

If he were coaching it might not be so easy to defend.

I don't think it's that simple. The players you have running it must be smart enough to understand how to execute in it. One of the most important roles is the SF/PF in the Pinch Post spot. Melo occupies that spot the most and he isn't helping the flow of the offense as much as he could be.

Obviously this year wasn't an effort to establish a Pure Triangle Offense! Not with Rose and BJ at PG. I think now with Randle and Baker are giving the team a chance to establish the Triangle and they look much better in it than Rose. They still need more time to continue to develop their comfort and knowledge of the offense.

KP has started passing more and posting more since they started running more Triangle. Willy is already a bit more proficient as a Post big and I think he has great upside in this style. My hope is that if the Knicks move towards using more Triangle as it appears they are, that they still look to use early offense and different looks to keep the defense guessing.

As I've said many times there's more to the Triangle Offense than the Side Triangle!!!

We keep hearing Phil needs to bring in players who can run the triangle. And we also keep hearing free agents don't want to run the triangle.

Who are the free agents who would want to come here to run the triangle? Especially after three years of how it has looked?

Is there a number of years at which we say - ok, maybe the triangle doesn't work in today's NBA? Five years? Ten years?

Is Phil prepared to spend the entirety of KP's rookie deal forcing the triangle on him? What if it never works and KP decides to walk as a free agent?

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

If he were coaching it might not be so easy to defend.

I don't think it's that simple. The players you have running it must be smart enough to understand how to execute in it. One of the most important roles is the SF/PF in the Pinch Post spot. Melo occupies that spot the most and he isn't helping the flow of the offense as much as he could be.

Obviously this year wasn't an effort to establish a Pure Triangle Offense! Not with Rose and BJ at PG. I think now with Randle and Baker are giving the team a chance to establish the Triangle and they look much better in it than Rose. They still need more time to continue to develop their comfort and knowledge of the offense.

KP has started passing more and posting more since they started running more Triangle. Willy is already a bit more proficient as a Post big and I think he has great upside in this style. My hope is that if the Knicks move towards using more Triangle as it appears they are, that they still look to use early offense and different looks to keep the defense guessing.

As I've said many times there's more to the Triangle Offense than the Side Triangle!!!

KP'S assists are up from 1.4 to 2.3 but his shooting percentage has dropped to 41%. Usually that goes up with more of a post up game. I agree about Willy.

For those who say KP likes the triangle. We agree he's healthy now, right? Or at least he was healthy leading up to the last game. Why has his field goal percentage dropped so much since the Knicks started re-focusing on the triangle. Isn't that a sign it's not a great system for him? This is an honest question.

Easy to defend players not executing (For reasons one can only speculate based on agenda bias) or that its so antiquated that todays players are just better defenders they can sniff it a mile away?

Nalod wrote:Easy to defend players not executing (For reasons one can only speculate based on agenda bias) or that its so antiquated that todays players are just better defenders they can sniff it a mile away?

I remember Crowder last year saying the triangle made it much easier to defend Melo because he knew where he was going to be, take his shots etc. That was early in the season and the Celtics crushed the Knicks. The next time they played Melo and KP had great games but Melo roled his ankle on the ref. Things went south on the season right around then.

Nalod wrote:Easy to defend players not executing (For reasons one can only speculate based on agenda bias) or that its so antiquated that todays players are just better defenders they can sniff it a mile away?

Agendas aside, I think it's a question of spacing the floor and the fact that the Knicks are so slow and deliberate to set it up. When they run a triangle set, there's often like 5 seconds left on the shot block before the shot goes up. It doesn't lead to quick offense. Maybe that comes with familiarity? But how long will that take? Is there a time limit? Can we ever build continuity if keep turning over half the roster each off-season? And I don't even think that's unique to the Knicks. The NBA is full of teams that turn over half the roster every off-season.

Look, the Knicks players obviously want to win. They're all frustrated by this season. They don't think the triangle helps them win. Their coach didn't want to use the triangle. The article suggests the team has lost faith in Hornacek because he's gone back to the triangle. I don't have an agenda here - it just doesn't seem like a good situation. And I really wonder what the point is and at what point we say - the triangle is not helping us win games or build a good team.

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Easy to defend players not executing (For reasons one can only speculate based on agenda bias) or that its so antiquated that todays players are just better defenders they can sniff it a mile away?

I remember Crowder last year saying the triangle made it much easier to defend Melo because he knew where he was going to be, take his shots etc. That was early in the season and the Celtics crushed the Knicks. The next time they played Melo and KP had great games but Melo roled his ankle on the ref. Things went south on the season right around then.

Have to bust ones ass without the ball. Melo not known to be all that. I used to tell my son to watch Manu Ginobli without the ball and how he would get open or create using screens. The man used to bust his tail. Hornets Marco Belinni has become a good pro by doing similar. Guys that can't create off the dribble can really impact a game by making sharp cuts and working hard. It just opens things up. Melo and Rose have the athletic ability but they are who they are, superior WITH the ball.
Yes, I agree, Melo was very predictable. Is that an indictment on the triangle or the player?7

Nalod wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Easy to defend players not executing (For reasons one can only speculate based on agenda bias) or that its so antiquated that todays players are just better defenders they can sniff it a mile away?

I remember Crowder last year saying the triangle made it much easier to defend Melo because he knew where he was going to be, take his shots etc. That was early in the season and the Celtics crushed the Knicks. The next time they played Melo and KP had great games but Melo roled his ankle on the ref. Things went south on the season right around then.

Have to bust ones ass without the ball. Melo not known to be all that. I used to tell my son to watch Manu Ginobli without the ball and how he would get open or create using screens. The man used to bust his tail. Hornets Marco Belinni has become a good pro by doing similar. Guys that can't create off the dribble can really impact a game by making sharp cuts and working hard. It just opens things up. Melo and Rose have the athletic ability but they are who they are, superior WITH the ball.
Yes, I agree, Melo was very predictable. Is that an indictment on the triangle or the player?7

This just brings us back to the question - do you design an offense that fits the skill sets of your players and play to their strengths?

Or do you try to make them be something they're not?

Nalod wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Easy to defend players not executing (For reasons one can only speculate based on agenda bias) or that its so antiquated that todays players are just better defenders they can sniff it a mile away?

I remember Crowder last year saying the triangle made it much easier to defend Melo because he knew where he was going to be, take his shots etc. That was early in the season and the Celtics crushed the Knicks. The next time they played Melo and KP had great games but Melo roled his ankle on the ref. Things went south on the season right around then.

Have to bust ones ass without the ball. Melo not known to be all that. I used to tell my son to watch Manu Ginobli without the ball and how he would get open or create using screens. The man used to bust his tail. Hornets Marco Belinni has become a good pro by doing similar. Guys that can't create off the dribble can really impact a game by making sharp cuts and working hard. It just opens things up. Melo and Rose have the athletic ability but they are who they are, superior WITH the ball.
Yes, I agree, Melo was very predictable. Is that an indictment on the triangle or the player?7

They weren't running the triangle in the second meeting and Melo was lighting Crowder up. Melo and the Knicks are very predictable when they run their version of the triangle. Melo rolled his ankle, the Knicks started losing a lot and Fisher was fired.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18941...

I know people get prickly about the Triangle, but this is incredibly damning.

Knicks players also saying to Begley that they think it produces too tight spacing and too many contested shots.

We've been told Phil would bring in veterans who would be suited to the Triangle. In three off seasons so far all the players he's brought in have not done well in the triangle, outside of maybe Rolo, who plays the same position as KP and Willy anyway.

I'm not looking to take down Phil or have that conversation again. But I think it certainly is worth asking why are we still committed to the Triangle? Even Hornacek didn't want to run it full time. At a certain point doesn't Phil need to agree to update or scrap the triangle? I thought we were told Hornacek would be allowed to update the Triangle, but that's been overruled.

I just question why at this point.

In this draft alone there are several players who FIT the Triangle. Josh Jackson is a perfect SF for the Triangle. He passes the ball well. Jason Tatum is a more Team Oriented version of Melo IMO. He would be effective in the Pinch Post. Lonzo Ball is also a Triangle Fit. Malik Monk and Frank Ntilikina are also Triangle Fits. I would say that even De'Aaron Fox would fit. So really there's no reason to fear the notion of looking for players that would do well in the Triangle. All that really means is that they can function well without depending on heavy PnR. They have a high BBIQ, pass the ball and defend. Those are all winning traits.

This still does not make any sense? Draft guys for Truangke. Ot wont be here un 2 years?? Let's bring in Pete Carril for one year then Paul Westphal then Paul Westhead for a year. Draft guys foe those systems. That will be great for development.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

If he were coaching it might not be so easy to defend.

I don't think it's that simple. The players you have running it must be smart enough to understand how to execute in it. One of the most important roles is the SF/PF in the Pinch Post spot. Melo occupies that spot the most and he isn't helping the flow of the offense as much as he could be.

Obviously this year wasn't an effort to establish a Pure Triangle Offense! Not with Rose and BJ at PG. I think now with Randle and Baker are giving the team a chance to establish the Triangle and they look much better in it than Rose. They still need more time to continue to develop their comfort and knowledge of the offense.

KP has started passing more and posting more since they started running more Triangle. Willy is already a bit more proficient as a Post big and I think he has great upside in this style. My hope is that if the Knicks move towards using more Triangle as it appears they are, that they still look to use early offense and different looks to keep the defense guessing.

As I've said many times there's more to the Triangle Offense than the Side Triangle!!!

KP'S assists are up from 1.4 to 2.3 but his shooting percentage has dropped to 41%. Usually that goes up with more of a post up game. I agree about Willy.

Just means KP has to get used to his looks in the Triangle. He's too talented to be down for long. I can't believe you guys think the Triangle would be a problem for KP rather than it eventually being good for him. Pau and Bynum were good in the Triangle and I can imagine KP and Willy will be equally successful in it.

We tried using Melo in the MJ/Kobe role but he didn't quite make full use of the passing aspects of that position in the Pinch Post. We need a SG or SF that can be used in that role who can not only score but pass and defend at a high level. That's been missing with this team.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18941...

I know people get prickly about the Triangle, but this is incredibly damning.

Knicks players also saying to Begley that they think it produces too tight spacing and too many contested shots.

We've been told Phil would bring in veterans who would be suited to the Triangle. In three off seasons so far all the players he's brought in have not done well in the triangle, outside of maybe Rolo, who plays the same position as KP and Willy anyway.

I'm not looking to take down Phil or have that conversation again. But I think it certainly is worth asking why are we still committed to the Triangle? Even Hornacek didn't want to run it full time. At a certain point doesn't Phil need to agree to update or scrap the triangle? I thought we were told Hornacek would be allowed to update the Triangle, but that's been overruled.

I just question why at this point.

In this draft alone there are several players who FIT the Triangle. Josh Jackson is a perfect SF for the Triangle. He passes the ball well. Jason Tatum is a more Team Oriented version of Melo IMO. He would be effective in the Pinch Post. Lonzo Ball is also a Triangle Fit. Malik Monk and Frank Ntilikina are also Triangle Fits. I would say that even De'Aaron Fox would fit. So really there's no reason to fear the notion of looking for players that would do well in the Triangle. All that really means is that they can function well without depending on heavy PnR. They have a high BBIQ, pass the ball and defend. Those are all winning traits.

This still does not make any sense? Draft guys for Truangke. Ot wont be here un 2 years?? Let's bring in Pete Carril for one year then Paul Westphal then Paul Westhead for a year. Draft guys foe those systems. That will be great for development.

Lonzo Ball or Josh Jackson don't make sense??? All we're talking about are 2 Way Multi-skilled players that can think the game too. Those players are going to be good in any system!

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

smackeddog wrote:You wonder how the Phil won so many championships with the triangle when apparently it was so easy to defend the whole time...

If he were coaching it might not be so easy to defend.

I don't think it's that simple. The players you have running it must be smart enough to understand how to execute in it. One of the most important roles is the SF/PF in the Pinch Post spot. Melo occupies that spot the most and he isn't helping the flow of the offense as much as he could be.

Obviously this year wasn't an effort to establish a Pure Triangle Offense! Not with Rose and BJ at PG. I think now with Randle and Baker are giving the team a chance to establish the Triangle and they look much better in it than Rose. They still need more time to continue to develop their comfort and knowledge of the offense.

KP has started passing more and posting more since they started running more Triangle. Willy is already a bit more proficient as a Post big and I think he has great upside in this style. My hope is that if the Knicks move towards using more Triangle as it appears they are, that they still look to use early offense and different looks to keep the defense guessing.

As I've said many times there's more to the Triangle Offense than the Side Triangle!!!

KP'S assists are up from 1.4 to 2.3 but his shooting percentage has dropped to 41%. Usually that goes up with more of a post up game. I agree about Willy.

Just means KP has to get used to his looks in the Triangle. He's too talented to be down for long. I can't believe you guys think the Triangle would be a problem for KP rather than it eventually being good for him. Pau and Bynum were good in the Triangle and I can imagine KP and Willy will be equally successful in it.

We tried using Melo in the MJ/Kobe role but he didn't quite make full use of the passing aspects of that position in the Pinch Post. We need a SG or SF that can be used in that role who can not only score but pass and defend at a high level. That's been missing with this team.

I think there is a lot missing with this team. I agree that KP could be competent in the triangle but I think you have to consider what Hofstra is saying. Phil is gone in a max of two years. There aren't triangle disciples to carry on with that system so it will probably a reset in philosophy. At that point KP has one year left and might choose to just sign his qualifying offer. Willy also has just one year left. The economics of the cba dictate that they should stay but I also think they would still be very young and would know if staying was wasting their career. Have to hope that the Knicks get the lottery pick right and maybe something else goes well for them this offseason. Phil has a lot to fix again.