Knicks · Evaluating Phil (page 1)
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?
nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?
I don't feel Phil has been complete trash or has done an awesome job. I think Phil came into a crappy situation. Lets not forget that there was about the be a protest by Knicks fans outside of the garden due to how poorly the franchise has been running. I think Phil would have had to have been flawless to meet the expectations of the people knocking him. Our record sucks over the last 3 years because our situation sucked and Phil would have had to have been perfect to get out of it. Since Phil wasn't perfect we ended having our natural destiny of suckiness due to the poor decisions long made before he got here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=NBA+stan...
This is the standings of the Eastern Conference when Phil was hired. The Bucks, Pistons, Cavs, Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Hawks, Hornets all added young lottery talent over the years prior to that and after that building there teams up. They also had cap space to make moves such as Hornets drafting Vonleh in the lottery then trading him for the next offseason Batum. Or Bucks drafting Greek Freak, then Jabari Parker. Stealing unknown Khris Middleton from the Pistons the year prior in the Jennings trade for Brandon Knight. Cavs landing back to back #1 picks, having Lebron come back home and then trading Wiggins for Love. Hawks signing Milsap and Korver and Lou Williams over the years to go with picks like Hortford, Teague, Schroeder. Etc etc etc etc. Please tell me the assets that Phil had ready and available for him to work at this level when he came in? Will be ignored though.
At the end of the day Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Jennings should have produced better results then it has. The scapegoat will be the triangle. Yet Rose has close to the same usage and is top 11 in the NBA in drives to the basket(10.4 compared to 8.9 last year). And has posted up the same statistical numbers as his last 3 years. Same with Melo. Pretty much the same usage, same statistical numbers. Takes the same shots he always takes. In the same spots he normally takes them in. With more offensive talent around him then he has had since being on the Knicks. So how is the triangle taking away from their games? Answer is its not. Lee, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ are all defensive first players as well. The defense should have been better then it was though Noah was supposed to be the anchor in that department and him being so injury prone derailed that. The narrative that we have a bunch of soft euros off our bench making our defense weak is a false one to push an agenda. As our bench consisted of Jennings, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ with Kuz and Willy getting spot mins based off the health of Noah and Lance who both missed many games. Then Willy eventually worked his way into the rotation with Noah being on the shelf. What this team lacks is Noah's presence or someone like him in the middle defensively. More capable backup defensive PG to cover Rose and better ball movement from our 3 highest usage players Melo, Rose and KP.
nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?
Yeah, turning a blind eye to every mistake because of KP isn't smart IMO. What if KP becomes anything less than a superstar? Even if he's just an ordinary all-star, if Phil doesn't somehow improve - if he keeps surrounding him with Lee's, Noah's, Rose's, etc - That's not ever going to even get you a .500 team. One all-star and several mediocre role players adds up to a bad team. Unless KP becomes Lebron, Phil's going to have to improve.
newyorknewyork wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?I don't feel Phil has been complete trash or has done an awesome job. I think Phil came into a crappy situation. Lets not forget that there was about the be a protest by Knicks fans outside of the garden due to how poorly the franchise has been running. I think Phil would have had to have been flawless to meet the expectations of the people knocking him. Our record sucks over the last 3 years because our situation sucked and Phil would have had to have been perfect to get out of it. Since Phil wasn't perfect we ended having our natural destiny of suckiness due to the poor decisions long made before he got here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=NBA+stan...
This is the standings of the Eastern Conference when Phil was hired. The Bucks, Pistons, Cavs, Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Hawks, Hornets all added young lottery talent over the years prior to that and after that building there teams up. They also had cap space to make moves such as Hornets drafting Vonleh in the lottery then trading him for the next offseason Batum. Or Bucks drafting Greek Freak, then Jabari Parker. Stealing unknown Khris Middleton from the Pistons the year prior in the Jennings trade for Brandon Knight. Cavs landing back to back #1 picks, having Lebron come back home and then trading Wiggins for Love. Hawks signing Milsap and Korver and Lou Williams over the years to go with picks like Hortford, Teague, Schroeder. Etc etc etc etc. Please tell me the assets that Phil had ready and available for him to work at this level when he came in? Will be ignored though.
At the end of the day Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Jennings should have produced better results then it has. The scapegoat will be the triangle. Yet Rose has close to the same usage and is top 11 in the NBA in drives to the basket(10.4 compared to 8.9 last year). And has posted up the same statistical numbers as his last 3 years. Same with Melo. Pretty much the same usage, same statistical numbers. Takes the same shots he always takes. In the same spots he normally takes them in. With more offensive talent around him then he has had since being on the Knicks. So how is the triangle taking away from their games? Answer is its not. Lee, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ are all defensive first players as well. The defense should have been better then it was though Noah was supposed to be the anchor in that department and him being so injury prone derailed that. The narrative that we have a bunch of soft euros off our bench making our defense weak is a false one to push an agenda. As our bench consisted of Jennings, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ with Kuz and Willy getting spot mins based off the health of Noah and Lance who both missed many games. Then Willy eventually worked his way into the rotation with Noah being on the shelf. What this team lacks is Noah's presence or someone like him in the middle defensively. More capable backup defensive PG to cover Rose and better ball movement from our 3 highest usage players Melo, Rose and KP.
You could have all the talent in the world, but with no direction, leadership, and bunch of distractions, it all goes to waste.
From all accounts we have heard, there has been a lot of confusion from top to bottom.
newyorknewyork wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?I don't feel Phil has been complete trash or has done an awesome job. I think Phil came into a crappy situation. Lets not forget that there was about the be a protest by Knicks fans outside of the garden due to how poorly the franchise has been running. I think Phil would have had to have been flawless to meet the expectations of the people knocking him. Our record sucks over the last 3 years because our situation sucked and Phil would have had to have been perfect to get out of it. Since Phil wasn't perfect we ended having our natural destiny of suckiness due to the poor decisions long made before he got here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=NBA+stan...
This is the standings of the Eastern Conference when Phil was hired. The Bucks, Pistons, Cavs, Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Hawks, Hornets all added young lottery talent over the years prior to that and after that building there teams up. They also had cap space to make moves such as Hornets drafting Vonleh in the lottery then trading him for the next offseason Batum. Or Bucks drafting Greek Freak, then Jabari Parker. Stealing unknown Khris Middleton from the Pistons the year prior in the Jennings trade for Brandon Knight. Cavs landing back to back #1 picks, having Lebron come back home and then trading Wiggins for Love. Hawks signing Milsap and Korver and Lou Williams over the years to go with picks like Hortford, Teague, Schroeder. Etc etc etc etc. Please tell me the assets that Phil had ready and available for him to work at this level when he came in? Will be ignored though.
At the end of the day Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Jennings should have produced better results then it has. The scapegoat will be the triangle. Yet Rose has close to the same usage and is top 11 in the NBA in drives to the basket(10.4 compared to 8.9 last year). And has posted up the same statistical numbers as his last 3 years. Same with Melo. Pretty much the same usage, same statistical numbers. Takes the same shots he always takes. In the same spots he normally takes them in. With more offensive talent around him then he has had since being on the Knicks. So how is the triangle taking away from their games? Answer is its not. Lee, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ are all defensive first players as well. The defense should have been better then it was though Noah was supposed to be the anchor in that department and him being so injury prone derailed that. The narrative that we have a bunch of soft euros off our bench making our defense weak is a false one to push an agenda. As our bench consisted of Jennings, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ with Kuz and Willy getting spot mins based off the health of Noah and Lance who both missed many games. Then Willy eventually worked his way into the rotation with Noah being on the shelf. What this team lacks is Noah's presence or someone like him in the middle defensively. More capable backup defensive PG to cover Rose and better ball movement from our 3 highest usage players Melo, Rose and KP.
They've only been playing the Triangle since the all-star break though, haven't they?
I contend that playing Melo out of position at the 3, instead of his real position at 4 killed our defense all year and put us in this hole. Remember how many games we lost by 1, 2, 3 points in December/January? That killed the season and the team's confidence. I think playing Melo out of position at the 3 was the real killer. The roster balance was off though - we were carrying five centers with KP, Noah, Willy, KOQ, Plumlee... to get those guys minutes we played big too often. We need a couple more guys like Courtney Lee or Lance Thomas in the place of one or two of those centers.
But Rose and Jennings definitely disappointed, outside of some flashes. I didn't think Rose would have such tunnel vision on offense or be so lethargic on defense. He's been a huge disappointment.
Anyway, I agree that Phil wasn't in a great spot when he took over and didn't have many picks in the first round. Though. He has had $30M in cap space each of the past two summers and he hasn't really even been able to sign a starter with that money. Rolo was his best value signing, an above average starter who got the Triangle on a good deal... and he traded him. Everything other signing has been questionable. That's not a lot of value for $60M in cap space over two summers. He'll have another $30M this summer... it'd be nice to add a starter with that money... but I don't think any of us expect that to happen.
knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?I don't feel Phil has been complete trash or has done an awesome job. I think Phil came into a crappy situation. Lets not forget that there was about the be a protest by Knicks fans outside of the garden due to how poorly the franchise has been running. I think Phil would have had to have been flawless to meet the expectations of the people knocking him. Our record sucks over the last 3 years because our situation sucked and Phil would have had to have been perfect to get out of it. Since Phil wasn't perfect we ended having our natural destiny of suckiness due to the poor decisions long made before he got here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=NBA+stan...
This is the standings of the Eastern Conference when Phil was hired. The Bucks, Pistons, Cavs, Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Hawks, Hornets all added young lottery talent over the years prior to that and after that building there teams up. They also had cap space to make moves such as Hornets drafting Vonleh in the lottery then trading him for the next offseason Batum. Or Bucks drafting Greek Freak, then Jabari Parker. Stealing unknown Khris Middleton from the Pistons the year prior in the Jennings trade for Brandon Knight. Cavs landing back to back #1 picks, having Lebron come back home and then trading Wiggins for Love. Hawks signing Milsap and Korver and Lou Williams over the years to go with picks like Hortford, Teague, Schroeder. Etc etc etc etc. Please tell me the assets that Phil had ready and available for him to work at this level when he came in? Will be ignored though.
At the end of the day Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Jennings should have produced better results then it has. The scapegoat will be the triangle. Yet Rose has close to the same usage and is top 11 in the NBA in drives to the basket(10.4 compared to 8.9 last year). And has posted up the same statistical numbers as his last 3 years. Same with Melo. Pretty much the same usage, same statistical numbers. Takes the same shots he always takes. In the same spots he normally takes them in. With more offensive talent around him then he has had since being on the Knicks. So how is the triangle taking away from their games? Answer is its not. Lee, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ are all defensive first players as well. The defense should have been better then it was though Noah was supposed to be the anchor in that department and him being so injury prone derailed that. The narrative that we have a bunch of soft euros off our bench making our defense weak is a false one to push an agenda. As our bench consisted of Jennings, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ with Kuz and Willy getting spot mins based off the health of Noah and Lance who both missed many games. Then Willy eventually worked his way into the rotation with Noah being on the shelf. What this team lacks is Noah's presence or someone like him in the middle defensively. More capable backup defensive PG to cover Rose and better ball movement from our 3 highest usage players Melo, Rose and KP.
You could have all the talent in the world, but with no direction, leadership, and bunch of distractions, it all goes to waste.
From all accounts we have heard, there has been a lot of confusion from top to bottom.
I think when a team has a LEAD PLAYER as a FOCAL POINT that makes everything that much easier. This team doesn't have a leader on the floor or a player that makes everything function better. We have 2 Scorers and a bunch of young players that don't yet know what they're doing. It's not cohesive enough.
It was imperative that we got more from Melo and Rose and Noah when he was playing. You have this many young players that's going to mean the vets have to step up bigtime. That's why so much was made of DadMelo. When he was playing that way it made the game EASIER for everyone. He should've been thinking of himself as more of a distributor in the post and in PnR looking to draw the D and dish.
Rose most definitely failed to take advantage of the great opportunity to be more of a distributor. He so great at getting in the paint but so poor at having a plan when he got in there. He should've been figuring out his passing options FIRST and then driving with a plan to draw and kick. How he could be this deep into his career and not be looking to do that more is unbelievable. He said all the right things before the season and then completely failed to even try to live up to his promises.
meloshouldgo wrote:
That's wonderful. Go along and play. It's the third time you'very referenced whatever that is. Do you got anything else for me?
nixluva wrote:He has had three roster resets to find that leader. I think he thought Jose was that guy. That says all you need to know about Phil. Every player on the team was signed or acquired by Phil.knicks1248 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?I don't feel Phil has been complete trash or has done an awesome job. I think Phil came into a crappy situation. Lets not forget that there was about the be a protest by Knicks fans outside of the garden due to how poorly the franchise has been running. I think Phil would have had to have been flawless to meet the expectations of the people knocking him. Our record sucks over the last 3 years because our situation sucked and Phil would have had to have been perfect to get out of it. Since Phil wasn't perfect we ended having our natural destiny of suckiness due to the poor decisions long made before he got here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=NBA+stan...
This is the standings of the Eastern Conference when Phil was hired. The Bucks, Pistons, Cavs, Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Hawks, Hornets all added young lottery talent over the years prior to that and after that building there teams up. They also had cap space to make moves such as Hornets drafting Vonleh in the lottery then trading him for the next offseason Batum. Or Bucks drafting Greek Freak, then Jabari Parker. Stealing unknown Khris Middleton from the Pistons the year prior in the Jennings trade for Brandon Knight. Cavs landing back to back #1 picks, having Lebron come back home and then trading Wiggins for Love. Hawks signing Milsap and Korver and Lou Williams over the years to go with picks like Hortford, Teague, Schroeder. Etc etc etc etc. Please tell me the assets that Phil had ready and available for him to work at this level when he came in? Will be ignored though.
At the end of the day Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Jennings should have produced better results then it has. The scapegoat will be the triangle. Yet Rose has close to the same usage and is top 11 in the NBA in drives to the basket(10.4 compared to 8.9 last year). And has posted up the same statistical numbers as his last 3 years. Same with Melo. Pretty much the same usage, same statistical numbers. Takes the same shots he always takes. In the same spots he normally takes them in. With more offensive talent around him then he has had since being on the Knicks. So how is the triangle taking away from their games? Answer is its not. Lee, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ are all defensive first players as well. The defense should have been better then it was though Noah was supposed to be the anchor in that department and him being so injury prone derailed that. The narrative that we have a bunch of soft euros off our bench making our defense weak is a false one to push an agenda. As our bench consisted of Jennings, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ with Kuz and Willy getting spot mins based off the health of Noah and Lance who both missed many games. Then Willy eventually worked his way into the rotation with Noah being on the shelf. What this team lacks is Noah's presence or someone like him in the middle defensively. More capable backup defensive PG to cover Rose and better ball movement from our 3 highest usage players Melo, Rose and KP.
You could have all the talent in the world, but with no direction, leadership, and bunch of distractions, it all goes to waste.
From all accounts we have heard, there has been a lot of confusion from top to bottom.I think when a team has a LEAD PLAYER as a FOCAL POINT that makes everything that much easier. This team doesn't have a leader on the floor or a player that makes everything function better. We have 2 Scorers and a bunch of young players that don't yet know what they're doing. It's not cohesive enough.
It was imperative that we got more from Melo and Rose and Noah when he was playing. You have this many young players that's going to mean the vets have to step up bigtime. That's why so much was made of DadMelo. When he was playing that way it made the game EASIER for everyone. He should've been thinking of himself as more of a distributor in the post and in PnR looking to draw the D and dish.
Rose most definitely failed to take advantage of the great opportunity to be more of a distributor. He so great at getting in the paint but so poor at having a plan when he got in there. He should've been figuring out his passing options FIRST and then driving with a plan to draw and kick. How he could be this deep into his career and not be looking to do that more is unbelievable. He said all the right things before the season and then completely failed to even try to live up to his promises.
newyorknewyork wrote:nykshaknbake wrote:I think the team has been so bad for so long that the only victories they can get is being right. That's why either Phil is complete trash or he's doing an awesome job. Wins and losses don't
matter. For His apologists. It's all Melo and roses fault and he's keeping our draft picks. Never-ending the confusion and chaos, bad signings, etc. Willy G was a good pickup. Kp was so good pickup. That's not alot of gloss for 3 years. Let me ask, before this season started is their any outcome that would have led you to say he isn'the doing a good job?I don't feel Phil has been complete trash or has done an awesome job. I think Phil came into a crappy situation. Lets not forget that there was about the be a protest by Knicks fans outside of the garden due to how poorly the franchise has been running. I think Phil would have had to have been flawless to meet the expectations of the people knocking him. Our record sucks over the last 3 years because our situation sucked and Phil would have had to have been perfect to get out of it. Since Phil wasn't perfect we ended having our natural destiny of suckiness due to the poor decisions long made before he got here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=NBA+stan...
This is the standings of the Eastern Conference when Phil was hired. The Bucks, Pistons, Cavs, Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Hawks, Hornets all added young lottery talent over the years prior to that and after that building there teams up. They also had cap space to make moves such as Hornets drafting Vonleh in the lottery then trading him for the next offseason Batum. Or Bucks drafting Greek Freak, then Jabari Parker. Stealing unknown Khris Middleton from the Pistons the year prior in the Jennings trade for Brandon Knight. Cavs landing back to back #1 picks, having Lebron come back home and then trading Wiggins for Love. Hawks signing Milsap and Korver and Lou Williams over the years to go with picks like Hortford, Teague, Schroeder. Etc etc etc etc. Please tell me the assets that Phil had ready and available for him to work at this level when he came in? Will be ignored though.
At the end of the day Melo, Rose, KP, Lee, Jennings should have produced better results then it has. The scapegoat will be the triangle. Yet Rose has close to the same usage and is top 11 in the NBA in drives to the basket(10.4 compared to 8.9 last year). And has posted up the same statistical numbers as his last 3 years. Same with Melo. Pretty much the same usage, same statistical numbers. Takes the same shots he always takes. In the same spots he normally takes them in. With more offensive talent around him then he has had since being on the Knicks. So how is the triangle taking away from their games? Answer is its not. Lee, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ are all defensive first players as well. The defense should have been better then it was though Noah was supposed to be the anchor in that department and him being so injury prone derailed that. The narrative that we have a bunch of soft euros off our bench making our defense weak is a false one to push an agenda. As our bench consisted of Jennings, Holiday, Thomas, KOQ with Kuz and Willy getting spot mins based off the health of Noah and Lance who both missed many games. Then Willy eventually worked his way into the rotation with Noah being on the shelf. What this team lacks is Noah's presence or someone like him in the middle defensively. More capable backup defensive PG to cover Rose and better ball movement from our 3 highest usage players Melo, Rose and KP.
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I would say that expecting noah to be near is dpoy days was a big mistake. For sure Phil had a tall order but he hasn't even come close to filling it. There can be excuses for everything, their is little unexpected accomplishment thus far. Even kp hasn't really progressed alot this year. All the Melo drama and coaching drama could have been easily avoided by an adept president. The guy doesn'the speak to the press ( and thus the fanbase). Isn't available at the trade deadline when other teams want to contact him. Wonderful he gave up half an hour to teach the triangle. I'm guessing it hasn't happened again. I think he has a superior basketball mind, but it just doesn't seem he's really putting forth the effort.