Even with Rose's limitations as a passer and his defense, even with Jennings poor shooting, our best offense and play came with Jennings and Rose or one of them played great. It's hard to be a good team in the NBA without a good PG. Even the Heat have someone really good in Dragic.
We need to get a good PG next year, above all else. Rose is decent, but his probem is he is a scorer not like Dragic who makes teammates better. Rose has value on offense as a driving and scoring threat, but he's not someone you can see lead a team to being really good unless he's dropping 30 every game (which he does not have gas in tank left in his body to do anymore).We need to find a PG who has Rose's ability to get into the paint, draw the defense and then look to pass and make teammates better. Someone who knows how to get Willy and LP the ball in the post or their strong spots.
Willy and KP are great starting building blocks. and too much emphasis is put on them. They are part of the equation, but not the missing piece. Sure we would be far better off if KP developed into a 23-24 points a night star. But what we really need to become a good team on a nightly basis is a point guard at minimum is as good as Goran Dragic.
Just for reference there are 4 really good teams in the East:
Cleveland - Lebron/Kyrie
Boston - Isiah Thomas
Washington - Wall
Toronto - Lowry
All of them have very very good PG's. We've got a find a way to get a young player who can become that kind of PG, or we need to trade for one. Rose was a worthwhile risk because he could have transformed the team had things fallen in place. We saw the flashes. But we should not abandon that because Rose experiment failed. The PG position is what makes or breaks this franchise the next 5 years. KP becoming a star or not, secondary to that.
Even Melo, I believe is a much better player in value if we have a PG like Dragic or someone like that.
Agreed. Toronto has looked mediocre without Lowry. A good pg changes a lot. Hopefully we grab the right one in the draft. Give me Fox, and we will look totally different when he adjusts to the nba.
Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Toronto has looked mediocre without Lowry. A good pg changes a lot. Hopefully we grab the right one in the draft. Give me Fox, and we will look totally different when he adjusts to the nba.
We need a good point guard, but I'm not sure we need one "now." If Fox is available I have no problem grabbing him. But we have a lot of holes to fill and I don't think we're just a PG away from contending.
I totally agree about a very good PG needed for any roster. Rose has pros and cons. In my humble opinion he can be a Vinny johnson type player moving forward.
Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Toronto has looked mediocre without Lowry. A good pg changes a lot. Hopefully we grab the right one in the draft. Give me Fox, and we will look totally different when he adjusts to the nba.
The Clippers before CP3 trade were weak. DAJ and Blake were talented good but not leading the team to wins. Now? Different story.
Willy and KP need a real passing penetrating point guard. Ideally a pg who is good at shooting off screens (Rose can't), passing on drives (Rose not very good at this) and also good at getting to the rim (Rose great at this)
Rose only does 1 thing well enough to make an impact.
A player like Dragic does all 3 things I mentioned pretty well.
We don't need a great point guard even. Just a good all around player who can shoot the 3 off a big setting a screen, can drive and dish and can get to the rim.
I don't watch enough college ball to know - any guys like that in the draft?
BigDaddyG wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Toronto has looked mediocre without Lowry. A good pg changes a lot. Hopefully we grab the right one in the draft. Give me Fox, and we will look totally different when he adjusts to the nba.
We need a good point guard, but I'm not sure we need one "now." If Fox is available I have no problem grabbing him. But we have a lot of holes to fill and I don't think we're just a PG away from contending.
We have a lot of holes. It starts with PG though. We definitely aren't contending without filling them all, but we have to start somewhere.
PG, SG, what ever, you have a good back court running the offense well your gonna win.
Phil won 11 chips without an all star caliber PG. Westbrook and Harden are the next evolution of Steve Nash and Derrik Rose. These are big fast guys that are multi tool players.
How are they rated defensively?
Rose's career got derailed and these co-MVP's passed him buy.
Our dynamic duo of Clyde and Earl were guards and neither in my opinion played the true PG position. They were just really good basketball players who passed. Clyde was a quarterback/alpha and felt his job was to get the team going and when needed, he took over. Earl was a magician with the ball and also learned to delegate in time.
Gail Goodrich was 6-1 and great shooter!! Jerry West a big 6-5 guard who could do it all. Not sure either was a pure PG. They were seen as the best tandem until Curry/Thompson. Klay is a great shooter, and but its Curry that brings that tandem to the convo.
My point really is Nalod not so interested in "Great PG" as much as "Great players". Im splitting hairs here, but in this draft I don't pass up taking a great player at any of the PG, SG or SF positions if the skill set is there:
Ball handling, Passing, Shooting and a brain.
I get Lonzo Ball I resign DRose if Rose is committed. I get Josh Jackson I might look at Holiday and Hill instead.
Nalod looking for chemistry but if there is a SF that I think could be a stud over just the best PG available, then Im going SF.
Yes we need a "guard", but if the one or two I want is off the board, you go with it.
The key is BALL HANDLERS! It can be a PG, SG or SF but the main thing is having a Playmaker on the perimeter that can get the team into the best position possible. Make the game easier for everyone. Even in a system like the Triangle you need smart guards and it makes the INITIAL decisions better and when they do get the ball back they have to be able to make something happen.
If you don't have an above average Shot Creator/Playmaker then you don't have that EDGE you need over NBA Defenses and scoring is harder. MDA putting Harden at the top of his offense assures an advantage over a defense for 30+ minutes of every game. The Knicks haven't had that kind of player at the Guard spots. Melo was the closest thing we had and this year Rose was supposed to provide that functionality but he gives up so much on the other end that it cancels out much of his impact! If Rose was a better defender and distributor it would've made a HUGE impact.
This summer Phil has to add Dynamic 2 Way guards and wings.
I think Ron showed in yestersay's start against Miami what a good passing PG that sets up the offense can do. He was firing the ball at all the right spots and even making his drives. Now Ron is not to be expected to be the solution, but if we find an unselfish point guard with leadership qualities, who can find the open man consistently, it will help the team alot.
The other thing, I really like the smaller 3 guard lineup with Willy/KP. We move better we look less clumsy and spacing/movement looks better. Since I think we are planning to use them as starters next year in the rebuild, we should definitely look at putting 3 guards out there, instead of the traditional SF, SG and PG.
If we're playing "big" at C/PF with Willy/KP. we should look to play "small" with Lee at 3, and a quick combo 2 and a starting level PG. I like that lineup alot for us for next year. Less clumsy, more spacing, Triangle runs much quicker. We also get early offense with some non-Triangle action with just running up the floor.
It's the same idea with the center being bad. It hurts the defense by a huge margin.
You know, KP really didn't have a good game last night. His shot wasn't really on, but our point guards did a really good job and getting him involved in easy places for him to score. That's my point about a point guard entirely. They should make the game easier for others instead of shepherding all of the scoring themselves. We don't know a score-first PG. We know a pass-first PG who defends. It would be nice if that PG could also knock down the open 3-pointer but even if he can't, if he's surrounded by 2-guards who are very good shooters and a SF that can occasionally hit an open 3-pointer, we're fine.
The Knicks have had a good point guard once in the last 5 years and they won a lot when they had him. They also won a lot with a three guard line up like they went with last night. It does make the game easier and is suited for how the game is played in the nba today. I also think it is Jeff's preferred way of playing if he had autonomy.
We need a pg but we really need a starting 2 just as bad ... when lee has a good to great game we are a very good team... it's just that thoses games are to far apart from the 5 pt 7 pt games...
Line up next year might be
Rose,Baker,randel
Monk,holiday
Thomas,Lee
Willy,oquin
KP,Noah
We can always bring back rose since we have his bird rights
fitzfarm wrote:We need a pg but we really need a starting 2 just as bad ... when lee has a good to great game we are a very good team... it's just that thoses games are to far apart from the 5 pt 7 pt games... Line up next year might be
Rose,Baker,randel
Monk,holiday
Thomas,Lee
Willy,oquin
KP,Noah
We can always bring back rose since we have his bird rights
I'd prefer to put the Rose money to better use. I think his lack of defense and passing is just not worth the cost. He's been better of late but I don't trust him.
