Knicks · Melo is at peace but still doesn't get it (page 15)
blkexec wrote:I blame Melo for being over confident and selfish when he forced his way to the Knicks. Eventhough we gave up mediocre players, they were bargaining chips and bench depth and the knicks are not great at building up a team....So I was worried we would be in trouble trying to build around Melo, which isn't easy. But Melo was over confident that his game and his superstar status would attract other stars to play with him in the big apple. But I don't blame Melo for his game.....Whatever you don't like about his game, you never like him before he came into the league. That's a different kind of hate. And I'm one of those fans that didn't like his game as an organized team player. But in street ball, Melo's game fits perfectly....I blame Phil for being over confident and selfish as well....He also came here thinking he could turn Melo into his triangle focus player like Kobe and MJ. And how he can build a championship around Melo, so he gives him a NTC and max money. He tried to use the big apple to provide that he can build a championship without having the best players in the world. And if he turned down that kind of money, it would've been foolish on his part. He's being paid like a vet GM, to learn on a job as a rookie GM. I would take the money too. He's getting paid to learn how to manage a team. Also Phil has been giving out money to rookie coaches like they are vets, just because they are part of his triangle fraternity.
I blame Dolan for making a rookie GM (Phil) one of the highest paid GM's in the NBA. Opening the door for the huge Melo trade....similar to the huge Marbury trade.....and all the bone headed block buster trades and money he's given to players in the past, just to have a reason to increase ticket sales. Yes, I rather have an owner with an open book policy. But he also needs to be surrounded by knowledgeable NBA minds, and place them in positions to succeed....Not just big names to sell tickets.
I blame the fans and the NY media for over hyping everything....And putting so much pressure on the knicks, that each GM and owner in the past never thought a true rebuild would work in NY. This atmosphere is not the best culture for cultivating rookies and building from scratch. Everybody wants a championship in a NY minute. And myself included, since I'm a fan and I hoped we could use Boston as the model of buying a championship, using a combination of vets surrounding a star like melo, similar to Paul Pierce. I still believe that's the only way melo will win in NY.....Otherwise, there was no point in bringing him back. He's not the type of mentor you want a rookie to follow....Unless you are grooming another young gunner!
Plenty of blame to go around after another lost season....And just like every season, there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. Lets hope that light is a little closer this year, now that we have a youth movement taking shape!
Melo came to play with Amare...Amare was balling just before he got here...
People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.
I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
Yours and Nix are stupid arguments since we never had a competitive team..I more than anyone want to hold Melo to account..I'm dying to see if this guy can play or rise to the moment with a team around him...All our stupid front office personnel have failed...But it's even more frustrating listen to you guys cast blame...No one is stupid...I know our team sucked while he was here..Now Nix is talking about DadMelo BS..Grow up please...
holfresh wrote:who is casting blame? Or more importantly why does it upset you?fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
Yours and Nix are stupid arguments since we never had a competitive team..I more than anyone want to hold Melo to account..I'm dying to see if this guy can play or rise to the moment with a team around him...All our stupid front office personnel have failed...But it's even more frustrating listen to you guys cast blame...No one is stupid...I know our team sucked while he was here..Now Nix is talking about DadMelo BS..Grow up please...
Is this your first foray into following pro sports? Based on the things you say it seems it might be. Just in case you are new here is how blame generally works in pro sports:
1) the highest paid "star" player: In football this is the QB. In the NBA this is the "max" or "franchise" player your team is build around.
2) the coach. When fans think the players are good but the system stinks or they arent motivated.
3) the front office. They built this thing.
So as we can see from the above it is very typical for the team's star player to shoulder much of the blame, warranted or not. This is often a result of accepting a monster contract and becoming one of the highest paid players in the league. You are compared to your peers and other "star" players. When the star player under performs fans rarely need to look past that as blame for a poor season or poor team. If the best guy isnt good or doesnt play well how can the other players?
Holfresh you seem to really struggle with this concept.
His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.
nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.
fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:who is casting blame? Or more importantly why does it upset you?fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
Yours and Nix are stupid arguments since we never had a competitive team..I more than anyone want to hold Melo to account..I'm dying to see if this guy can play or rise to the moment with a team around him...All our stupid front office personnel have failed...But it's even more frustrating listen to you guys cast blame...No one is stupid...I know our team sucked while he was here..Now Nix is talking about DadMelo BS..Grow up please...
Is this your first foray into following pro sports? Based on the things you say it seems it might be. Just in case you are new here is how blame generally works in pro sports:
1) the highest paid "star" player: In football this is the QB. In the NBA this is the "max" or "franchise" player your team is build around.
2) the coach. When fans think the players are good but the system stinks or they arent motivated.
3) the front office. They built this thing.So as we can see from the above it is very typical for the team's star player to shoulder much of the blame, warranted or not. This is often a result of accepting a monster contract and becoming one of the highest paid players in the league. You are compared to your peers and other "star" players. When the star player under performs fans rarely need to look past that as blame for a poor season or poor team. If the best guy isnt good or doesnt play well how can the other players?
Holfresh you seem to really struggle with this concept.
I guess I will struggle because I try to look at what's really went wrong in each individual case and not just one size fits all panacea...
I look for a little more than what usually expected, I'm sorry..I loved to see Steph Curry step up and overcome being down 2-1 twice in the playoffs amid detractors including Phil's stupid tweets...I loved that fact that I saw Blake Griffin cower in the moment..I want to see Harden in that moment as well where he failed with OKC but played better in Houston...KD definitely cowered in the moment against GS, it was a lame move going to GS after..LeBron overcame after losing to Dallas...I never thought KLove was the type of player to carry a team and I saw that..I just wanted to see where Melo stack up in this era of players..I never saw...We never tried...Our management had other plans...Oh well..
So we get Phil mofo Jackson and we don't go guns blazings to take on the world..We have 6 undrafted players on the roster with the weakest coaches imaginable....All just to run the triangle...The freaking triangle...
fishmike wrote:nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.
Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!
Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.
holfresh wrote:Its funny that you blame the triangle and wish Melo got a shot to prove himself against "his peers." He hasnt played well enough to be considered peers with most of the guys you mentioned. Kevin Love is about right. Pair him with Lebron and you are OK. Build a team around him and you get about 30 wins a year.fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:who is casting blame? Or more importantly why does it upset you?fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
Yours and Nix are stupid arguments since we never had a competitive team..I more than anyone want to hold Melo to account..I'm dying to see if this guy can play or rise to the moment with a team around him...All our stupid front office personnel have failed...But it's even more frustrating listen to you guys cast blame...No one is stupid...I know our team sucked while he was here..Now Nix is talking about DadMelo BS..Grow up please...
Is this your first foray into following pro sports? Based on the things you say it seems it might be. Just in case you are new here is how blame generally works in pro sports:
1) the highest paid "star" player: In football this is the QB. In the NBA this is the "max" or "franchise" player your team is build around.
2) the coach. When fans think the players are good but the system stinks or they arent motivated.
3) the front office. They built this thing.So as we can see from the above it is very typical for the team's star player to shoulder much of the blame, warranted or not. This is often a result of accepting a monster contract and becoming one of the highest paid players in the league. You are compared to your peers and other "star" players. When the star player under performs fans rarely need to look past that as blame for a poor season or poor team. If the best guy isnt good or doesnt play well how can the other players?
Holfresh you seem to really struggle with this concept.
I guess I will struggle because I try to look at what's really went wrong in each individual case and not just one size fits all panacea...
I look for a little more than what usually expected, I'm sorry..I loved to see Steph Curry step up and overcome being down 2-1 twice in the playoffs amid detractors including Phil's stupid tweets...I loved that fact that I saw Blake Griffin cower in the moment..I want to see Harden in that moment as well where he failed with OKC but played better in Houston...KD definitely cowered in the moment against GS, it was a lame move going to GS after..LeBron overcame after losing to Dallas...I never thought KLove was the type of player to carry a team and I saw that..I just wanted to see where Melo stack up in this era of players..I never saw...We never tried...Our management had other plans...Oh well..
So we get Phil mofo Jackson and we don't go guns blazings to take on the world..We have 6 undrafted players on the roster with the weakest coaches imaginable....All just to run the triangle...The freaking triangle...
Melo doesnt compare favorably with his playoff "peers" because Melo is a poor playoff performer and always has been. Melo has failed to shoot 40% in more than half the playoff games he's played in. It tells you 1 of 2 things: 1) Melo chokes and isnt good in the playoffs or 2) Melo's style of play is not sustainable in the playoffs. Could also be a combo of the two.
Kind of interesting to see you lament a player's chances, but when he's had his chances he's played poorly. I had to laugh when you guys mentioned the Pacer's series and the poor play of Melo's supporting cast. Nobody played poorer than Melo himself putting the team in the 3-1 hole vs. the Pacer. Melo played terribly and cost the Knicks any chance of an early series lead. Then he has 2 great games at the end of the series and guys like you cry "Melo has no help!"
Doesnt matter. Its done. Melo knows it. Everyone else knows it. Phil is Melo's scapegoat. He can go to LA, he will probably play well with guys like CP3, Jordan, Blake, whoever... you guys can post his box scores and take solace that his greatness survived the plane ride to LA.
nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:nixluva wrote:I don't know why this is so controversial since Phil said from day one he was going to try to win BUT at the same time he was going to have a future component and from the beginning that is what he did.neither are super impressive. KP and Willy are nice grabs. Its pretty thin after that. Keeping the picks is huge and I am grad we have a FO that above all else understands the importance of the draft.His plan to win by putting players around Melo failed but his plan to build for the future is growing and promising. As a fan this is good news cuz no past Prez/GM was able to accomplish this. There's still a long way to go but the process of rebuilding is already underway.
Certainly Phil has a LONG way to go before he can tout any success in rebuilding but I like where it's starting so far. Remembering he only had one 1st rd pick up to this point. Melo could easily have been a better mentor by buying in fully and continuing in the direction he was going last year!Melo was doing more than just scoring last year. Passing more and defending harder than this year. It's just that simple. Win or lose that's the right way to play and show the kids how to play.
Nix....Melo didn't change last year. Only his environment changed. Melo was being himself. He's a good player with the right vets around him. Surrounding Melo with vets fills all the leadership quality and mentoring abilities that Melo doesn't use. Frees up Melo to focus on....SCORING....And when he's able to do that, he will give you all the other stuff. This is why he loves going to the all star game......Even when he's injured (which I thought was selfish). This is why I question Phil's ability or over confidence to a fault. And I don't see phil has dipping his toe.....More like taking a quick bath. Melo, Rose, Noah and Phil proved the doubters right. Everybody said Phil only won because he had the best players. Noah and Rose was injury prone. Melo is now full time iso Melo....probably due to age and limited young knees like he used to have. Also, you don't pair Melo and Rose with a rookie coach, when they are known for being coach killers. It was a total bad mix all around. Yes he tried, just like all GM's....And yes he was able to keep his draft picks. That's great. But maybe I was expecting more from a coach known for being the greatest coach in NBA history. Rose the former MVP. Noah a former defensive player of the year. Melo who lead the league in scoring. Roll players like Jennings and others.....
I think where Phil messed up was not being involved and too much hands off when we had Fisher, who I think is a better coach than most people think. Same with Woodson.
fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
The jury is still out on this High-End talent...At this point, KP is the only intriguing young piece on this roster that has the potential to be a very good young player in the league. Hernangomez is a nice find..he is super crafty and understands the game but his lack of foot speed, athleticism and just time on the court makes it hard to say whether or not he can be a starter on a contending team. I'm really not sure if he's good enough yet but time will tell. Baker & Holiday are end of the bench guys and on a really good team are probably wearing suits on the bench. Hopefully, we strike gold in this upcoming draft. And Hopefully, we are taking the best player available, not the right fit for the triangle/system.
Uptown wrote:fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
The jury is still out on this High-End talent...At this point, KP is the only intriguing young piece on this roster that has the potential to be a very good young player in the league. Hernangomez is a nice find..he is super crafty and understands the game but his lack of foot speed, athleticism and just time on the court makes it hard to say whether or not he can be a starter on a contending team. I'm really not sure if he's good enough yet but time will tell. Baker & Holiday are end of the bench guys and on a really good team are probably wearing suits on the bench. Hopefully, we strike gold in this upcoming draft. And Hopefully, we are taking the best player available, not the right fit for the triangle/system.
I like Holiday....and I think he can grow into a solid rotational 2 way....3 D type of player. I also think Phil has the upper hand on getting Holiday's brother to run the point....Which could pave the way for Josh Jackson, if he's available. But Baker looks like an end of the bench type, but with potential to get better.....He looks like a hard worker, which is what we need in roll players. Players that understand their potential without being a locker room cancer, because they want to start or get more minutes, like Jennings.
fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Its funny that you blame the triangle and wish Melo got a shot to prove himself against "his peers." He hasnt played well enough to be considered peers with most of the guys you mentioned. Kevin Love is about right. Pair him with Lebron and you are OK. Build a team around him and you get about 30 wins a year.fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:who is casting blame? Or more importantly why does it upset you?fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
Yours and Nix are stupid arguments since we never had a competitive team..I more than anyone want to hold Melo to account..I'm dying to see if this guy can play or rise to the moment with a team around him...All our stupid front office personnel have failed...But it's even more frustrating listen to you guys cast blame...No one is stupid...I know our team sucked while he was here..Now Nix is talking about DadMelo BS..Grow up please...
Is this your first foray into following pro sports? Based on the things you say it seems it might be. Just in case you are new here is how blame generally works in pro sports:
1) the highest paid "star" player: In football this is the QB. In the NBA this is the "max" or "franchise" player your team is build around.
2) the coach. When fans think the players are good but the system stinks or they arent motivated.
3) the front office. They built this thing.So as we can see from the above it is very typical for the team's star player to shoulder much of the blame, warranted or not. This is often a result of accepting a monster contract and becoming one of the highest paid players in the league. You are compared to your peers and other "star" players. When the star player under performs fans rarely need to look past that as blame for a poor season or poor team. If the best guy isnt good or doesnt play well how can the other players?
Holfresh you seem to really struggle with this concept.
I guess I will struggle because I try to look at what's really went wrong in each individual case and not just one size fits all panacea...
I look for a little more than what usually expected, I'm sorry..I loved to see Steph Curry step up and overcome being down 2-1 twice in the playoffs amid detractors including Phil's stupid tweets...I loved that fact that I saw Blake Griffin cower in the moment..I want to see Harden in that moment as well where he failed with OKC but played better in Houston...KD definitely cowered in the moment against GS, it was a lame move going to GS after..LeBron overcame after losing to Dallas...I never thought KLove was the type of player to carry a team and I saw that..I just wanted to see where Melo stack up in this era of players..I never saw...We never tried...Our management had other plans...Oh well..
So we get Phil mofo Jackson and we don't go guns blazings to take on the world..We have 6 undrafted players on the roster with the weakest coaches imaginable....All just to run the triangle...The freaking triangle...Melo doesnt compare favorably with his playoff "peers" because Melo is a poor playoff performer and always has been. Melo has failed to shoot 40% in more than half the playoff games he's played in. It tells you 1 of 2 things: 1) Melo chokes and isnt good in the playoffs or 2) Melo's style of play is not sustainable in the playoffs. Could also be a combo of the two.
Kind of interesting to see you lament a player's chances, but when he's had his chances he's played poorly. I had to laugh when you guys mentioned the Pacer's series and the poor play of Melo's supporting cast. Nobody played poorer than Melo himself putting the team in the 3-1 hole vs. the Pacer. Melo played terribly and cost the Knicks any chance of an early series lead. Then he has 2 great games at the end of the series and guys like you cry "Melo has no help!"
Doesnt matter. Its done. Melo knows it. Everyone else knows it. Phil is Melo's scapegoat. He can go to LA, he will probably play well with guys like CP3, Jordan, Blake, whoever... you guys can post his box scores and take solace that his greatness survived the plane ride to LA.
Ha..Ok
blkexec wrote:Holiday and his brother are both FAs and want to play together. I dont see him sticking. Unless we give huge money to both I think they both play for NO. They cant lose talent to put around Cousins/Davis.Uptown wrote:fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
The jury is still out on this High-End talent...At this point, KP is the only intriguing young piece on this roster that has the potential to be a very good young player in the league. Hernangomez is a nice find..he is super crafty and understands the game but his lack of foot speed, athleticism and just time on the court makes it hard to say whether or not he can be a starter on a contending team. I'm really not sure if he's good enough yet but time will tell. Baker & Holiday are end of the bench guys and on a really good team are probably wearing suits on the bench. Hopefully, we strike gold in this upcoming draft. And Hopefully, we are taking the best player available, not the right fit for the triangle/system.
I like Holiday....and I think he can grow into a solid rotational 2 way....3 D type of player. I also think Phil has the upper hand on getting Holiday's brother to run the point....Which could pave the way for Josh Jackson, if he's available. But Baker looks like an end of the bench type, but with potential to get better.....He looks like a hard worker, which is what we need in roll players. Players that understand their potential without being a locker room cancer, because they want to start or get more minutes, like Jennings.
As for Willy I dont know where this lack of foot speed or athleticism is coming from. He has looked fantastic and is rated in the top 5 for rookies. You really couldnt ask for a better prospect there.
I agree about the other guys being end of bench but at least they are getting a long look. Considering how good KP has looked isnt it a shame Phil took over missing draft picks?
blkexec wrote:I blame Melo for being over confident and selfish when he forced his way to the Knicks. Eventhough we gave up mediocre players, they were bargaining chips and bench depth and the knicks are not great at building up a team....So I was worried we would be in trouble trying to build around Melo, which isn't easy. But Melo was over confident that his game and his superstar status would attract other stars to play with him in the big apple. But I don't blame Melo for his game.....Whatever you don't like about his game, you never like him before he came into the league. That's a different kind of hate. And I'm one of those fans that didn't like his game as an organized team player. But in street ball, Melo's game fits perfectly....I blame Phil for being over confident and selfish as well....He also came here thinking he could turn Melo into his triangle focus player like Kobe and MJ. And how he can build a championship around Melo, so he gives him a NTC and max money. He tried to use the big apple to provide that he can build a championship without having the best players in the world. And if he turned down that kind of money, it would've been foolish on his part. He's being paid like a vet GM, to learn on a job as a rookie GM. I would take the money too. He's getting paid to learn how to manage a team. Also Phil has been giving out money to rookie coaches like they are vets, just because they are part of his triangle fraternity.
I blame Dolan for making a rookie GM (Phil) one of the highest paid GM's in the NBA. Opening the door for the huge Melo trade....similar to the huge Marbury trade.....and all the bone headed block buster trades and money he's given to players in the past, just to have a reason to increase ticket sales. Yes, I rather have an owner with an open book policy. But he also needs to be surrounded by knowledgeable NBA minds, and place them in positions to succeed....Not just big names to sell tickets.
I blame the fans and the NY media for over hyping everything....And putting so much pressure on the knicks, that each GM and owner in the past never thought a true rebuild would work in NY. This atmosphere is not the best culture for cultivating rookies and building from scratch. Everybody wants a championship in a NY minute. And myself included, since I'm a fan and I hoped we could use Boston as the model of buying a championship, using a combination of vets surrounding a star like melo, similar to Paul Pierce. I still believe that's the only way melo will win in NY.....Otherwise, there was no point in bringing him back. He's not the type of mentor you want a rookie to follow....Unless you are grooming another young gunner!
Plenty of blame to go around after another lost season....And just like every season, there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. Lets hope that light is a little closer this year, now that we have a youth movement taking shape!
You play the blame game well.
Im not sure Phil thought he could build a contender in 3 years around melo. In short order he had to do a tear down in year one. If you take Phil at his word during his pressor when he was hired, then your gullible. Same for the Moby loving "coming home" act when Melo was traded here. Did he come to play with Amare? He was coming to Brooklyn if we didn't do the deal. He was coming one way or another.
As for being selfish, I don't fault him for taking the free agent route. He was due a surgery, there was a strike, and he had an opt out. It was just business. Nobody put a gun to Dolans head and made him trade for him as he did.
Phil knew he had to draft a cornerstone franchise type player and told us as much. With one pick in the next three years there was not much to work with.
Melo got to score a lot of points, and maybe he did think he would would work with MDA at first. But if it cost him "his game",we now know otherwise.
I blame the knicks.
Uptown wrote:fishmike wrote:holfresh wrote:Both have failed. Not like the Isiah disaster but both have failed. Melo proved doubters right. He's not the player he was and he's not a star anymore. He's not a build around player. Phil tried to build around him and failed. However their continues to be a silver lining as we aquire high end talent as a result of the losses. So while Phil's hope of build a playoff team around Melo was both not realistic and failed, he will have something to show for it whether he stays or its the next guy here.nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:If you look at what Phil has done and is doing, it's much different than it's being portrayed by the Media and some fans. Phil tried to win, but he never made the exact same mistake as the past GM's who sold our souls to the Devil just to try and win now. Phil only dipped his toe in the water on a Win Now roster. He never jumped in completely. Now that may have been a large part of the failure to make the playoffs but it also was likely the best thing to have happened cuz in truth it's allowed us to pretty much start a rebuild in possibly the only way we could, by trying to win a little but all the while preparing much more for the future.People wanna say he lucked into a rebuild but that's not actually fully true. Phil NEVER 100% committed to Win Now. Since he got here he was very much planning for a future team and trying to build a developmental program underneath the Win Now portion of the roster. If Phil was 100% behind Win Now he would never have 6 rookies on the opening day roster. It's crystal clear that Phil really has been looking towards the future the entire time and not just the present.
The same thing goes for the Coach. Phil didn't go for the Win Now coach. He's brought in developmental coaches like Fish and even Jeff. Some may not like it but you have to understand that this is important to Phil's long term vision. He really does want to mold and build a lasting legacy and as we keep moving forward that will become more and more a reality. His coaches. His Players. All growing together.
So he bought in a developmental coach then signed Melo, Noah and Lee then traded for Rose knowing he is building for the future???..Please stop...He bought in only guys that would listen to his triangle concepts...But he refuses to own the failure of the product..
Phil has never said it's not his fault that the team has lost. The thing is that he wants his players to play Team Ball and is unhappy when Melo doesn't do that. Noah and Lee are vets that know what to do and should be good leaders on a mostly young team. If you notice Phil has a lot of young players on the roster which you normally wouldn't expect if this was 100% Win Now.I don't understand what's so hard to grasp when it's clear that Phil was looking for a coach that would be open to his ideas and mentoring. Jeff has been much more receptive than Fish, which is what Phil wanted. In the end Phil has more investment in Jeff, KP, Willy and the future than he does to Melo. That's obvious from everything Phil has done.
Melo is your scapegoat...It's complete BS...Which is why I have zero respect for Phil...Everyone knows Melo isn't the reason we are losing..You sound like a broken record that's always wrong...
Thank god we have moved away from the past mistakes made by prior idiots. How anyone thought Isiah was anything but a crooked waste of low class space is beyond me.
The jury is still out on this High-End talent...At this point, KP is the only intriguing young piece on this roster that has the potential to be a very good young player in the league. Hernangomez is a nice find..he is super crafty and understands the game but his lack of foot speed, athleticism and just time on the court makes it hard to say whether or not he can be a starter on a contending team. I'm really not sure if he's good enough yet but time will tell. Baker & Holiday are end of the bench guys and on a really good team are probably wearing suits on the bench. Hopefully, we strike gold in this upcoming draft. And Hopefully, we are taking the best player available, not the right fit for the triangle/system.
I think fandom have different goals...Some fans want players to cheer for while others want their team to compete...The threshold for successes are different...So in many of these discussions, you end up talking past each other...
No Boogie! This guy if toxic might drive Jrue away. I know they all are giving it their best shot and will say all the right things.
Holl, I think PHil thought he could build on the fly and compete. KP is the future, but can still be a piece of the machine. Rose was an opportunity that cost little.
The formula of "Three stars", ie: Melo, KP and Rose as value. All healthy! Add CLee as a decent 2 and Noah as the glue guy you had a very solid concept at the time. The concern was the bench which carried little experience and injuries to the starters.