Knicks · Revisiting the Derrick Rose Trade (page 1)

Two roads

A) Rose plays lights out and make a huge impact FOR ONE YEAR. In which case the Knicks are pressured to give a max deal to a low positional value player who doesn't play team ball, can't hit a 3 at a league average rate, doesn't care about defense, has off the court issues and has an injury history. And the contract would likely encompass his clear decline phase.

B) He's mediocre to bad, in which case the Knicks will let him walk, with NO COMPENSATION, after trading 3 cost controlled years of Jerian Grant ( he's not working out for the Bulls, but this is a "principle" issue) and 3 bargain rate years of a center who wanted to be here, was durable, and would have retained his trade value through his entire contract, while helping the team now and in the future in Robin Lopez.

The fallout was signing Noah to cover for Lopez's loss.

This fundamentally a horrible trade on all levels.

My guess is no one else wanted Rose and no one else would have paid much for him, as he's a huge contract and has all these drawbacks, but the Knicks gave something far more for him than most other teams.

The whey protein you see in stores for guys who lift, it was a byproduct of producing other dairy products. They used to, long ago, throw them away. Those "buffalo wings", the reason bars had them was no one wanted them at one point, they were dirt cheap, and thus were easy snack food to encourage more drinking. Obviously those things are worth something more now. What you didn't see was a bar paying 2017 prices for wings for 1985 prices for wings.

Rose was crap the Bulls were likely going to just let loose for nothing. Then the Knicks paid the premium price for him.

"Why would you throw that away when I'll give you my daughters virginity and my pride and these 1000 gold coins for it? Why?"

Trading for Rose, when the Knicks did, would be just as insane as the Jets trading for Tony Romo right now, knowing full well the Cowboys are going to have to cut that dude in a few weeks anyway.

This was a lose/lose trade from the beginning. If Rose worked out, it offered lots of future risk and problems. If it ended badly, which was more predictable, it offered loss of assets with no return and hurting the actual morale and chemistry of the team.

Would Daryl Morey make this trade? No
Would Danny Ainge make this trade? No
Would Pat Riley make this trade? No
Would Rich Cho make this trade? No
Would Sam Presti make this trade? No
Would rookie Sean Marks make this trade? No
Would RC Buford make this trade? No
Would Bob Myers make this trade? No
Would Masaj Ujiri make this trade? No

Would Vlade Divac make this trade? Maybe.

This trade has ripple that hurts the Knicks for THE NEXT THREE YEARS.

You can say "live and learn" in the NFL, when you can just cut dudes with no mercy and often with no long term impact on your cap. In the NBA, with GUARANTEED CONTRACTS, this kind of stuff is brutal.

Do you know why Jackson made this trade? He had a long relationship with Bill Paxton, that's it. Because he's clearly too busy to scout college players or answer phone calls.

Mark Cuban did something no other owner in the NBA has ever done. When Nash walked in FA and Dampier dogged it and Mike Finley was rotting on his roster, he said - Blame me. It's my fault. I made some bad decisions and no one else is to blame and this franchise will suffer for years because of it. But the flip side was you could see the base reasoning in risking big money on a center, and a wing who had previously produced.

There is just no logical reasoning for signing Noah and trading for Rose. There is no win/win scenario in either case. It was a move by a lazy dumb inexperienced team president looking to cash his comfy big retirement checks.

Where Phil completely failed was to not grab Rubio for Rose at the deadline and run away as fast as he could. One of the more confusing failings of his entire tenure.

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And Lopez's #s are pretty much the same - plays every game, puts up decent, but unexceptional numbers.

Bulls are fighting for the 8 seed, we're fighting for completely different seeding.

smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

nykshaknbake wrote:Hard to say. The players from either side really haven't lit their teams on fire. Justin holiday has a chance to be a lasting piece. We already have players at Chang, so I don't necessarily miss Lopez. I think u have to view it separately from the noah signing. That one is its own blunder.

Not necessarily, we did not know if KOQ would step up as he did this year or Willy would be this good.
Again, at the time you sign Noah, he perhaps demonstrates a good health and over his injuries. really, he had an awful year but no major injury! Not to say they don't matter. They do, they are like the ones an out of shape player would get.
I would assume the chemistry gains form Rose and Noah could have been good.
WE haven only frustration to show for signing Noah.

They were one of the better front lines in the league. Pretty sure KP would have shown more progress if Lopez were still here.

Willy can score in the paint like nobody's business, but he also gives up buckets like nobody's business. Lopez could have helped smooth the transition over the next few years, while Willy expands his game on offense and defense. Not to mention, it was a great contract for the Knicks.

Rose was a one year rental, spent most of the season looking for his own shot. Phil was on the right track, was no need to get Noah and Rose. We still need an above average defender in the paint, in addition to a PG. Holiday is a nice addition, hope he sticks around, but in the end, he is the only player acquired through trade (or signing) from the Bulls who held up their end of the bargain.

Nalod wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Hard to say. The players from either side really haven't lit their teams on fire. Justin holiday has a chance to be a lasting piece. We already have players at Chang, so I don't necessarily miss Lopez. I think u have to view it separately from the noah signing. That one is its own blunder.

Not necessarily, we did not know if KOQ would step up as he did this year or Willy would be this good.
Again, at the time you sign Noah, he perhaps demonstrates a good health and over his injuries. really, he had an awful year but no major injury! Not to say they don't matter. They do, they are like the ones an out of shape player would get.
I would assume the chemistry gains form Rose and Noah could have been good.
WE haven only frustration to show for signing Noah.

True, but the thread is talking in retrospect. I thought originally the trade was fine to somewhat good. Rose should have had more of an impact as a penetrating guard. Didn'the think we would lose that much D compared to Calderon. I say the Noah signing is in isolation because he wasn't the only option we could have gone with at C.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

Really Dude? One of the reason why we are getting a high draft pick this year is because that trade backfire, that trade WAS NOT done with the intent of tanking, the high pick is a result of the Knicks poor season and VERY POOR DECISIONS.

KnicksFE wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

Really Dude? One of the reason why we are getting a high draft pick this year is because that trade backfire, that trade WAS NOT done with the intent of tanking, the high pick is a result of the Knicks poor season and VERY POOR DECISIONS.

So you'd rather we had a worse pick? What are you complaining about the trade for? Who cares if it backfired if we end up with a top pick?

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

yellowboy90 wrote:How about trading Lopez for picks and then plan for the tank that way you don't give Noah 17m and Lee. 11m to play on a team that's going no where.

smackeddog wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I would happily trade Lopez & Grant for Rose (expiring), Holiday and a top 3 pick in this years draft- if we end up rising in the lottery then the trade was great.

Is this going to be the basis for evaluating every decision? Why don't we just give max contracts to guys like Calderon? That will help make sure we keep getting high lottery picks.

You can't have your cake and eat it, you can't say we need to rebuild via high draft picks but at the same time complain when we lose. If we kept Lopez maybe we wouldn't of sucked as much, but then we'd have a worse draft pick. Now which would you rather have? What is the priority at this point- high first round picks or role players who help you win? You can't have both.

Really Dude? One of the reason why we are getting a high draft pick this year is because that trade backfire, that trade WAS NOT done with the intent of tanking, the high pick is a result of the Knicks poor season and VERY POOR DECISIONS.

So you'd rather we had a worse pick? What are you complaining about the trade for? Who cares if it backfired if we end up with a top pick?

Who’s to say we wouldn’t have a better draft position? That’s a poor defense since RoLo is not an impact player.
Now let me tell what the Knicks would have, they would have two players on a friendly contract (tradable assets) and a high draft pick. Instead you have over paid players and a high draft pick. See the difference.