Knicks · The scary part about this team is... (page 6)
nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!
Why not look at the dynamics of everything..
Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.
No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.
Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..
Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!
This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.
The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.
OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..
Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!
TOUCH TIME RANGE GP G FREQ FGM FGA FG% EFG%http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shot...
Touch < 2 Seconds 71 71 42.0% 3.6 7.9 45.9 56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds 71 70 43.2% 3.3 8.1 41.2 43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds 71 68 14.8% 1.2 2.8 43.7 45.9Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!
STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.
Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!
This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!
Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.
Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.
Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?
You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.
Oh don't worry, I'm making it.
And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.
You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.
Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.
You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.
Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.
We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.
The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!
Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.
Buy into what? Hornacek's system didn't put Melo at the point forward, that's why his assists were done. Noah didn't score at the percentage Rolo did, that's why Melo's assists were down. Rose held the ball longer than Calderon and wasn't available for kick out threes, that's why Melo's assists were down. Are you telling me you really don't see these things on the court? You really just see the mess this roster is and your honest best guess to figure it out is that Melo and Rose don't want to win badly enough? Do Melo and Rose seem particularly happy about this season?
How does Melo and Rose's effort on defense have anything to do with the obvious structural issues this team has on D - as evidenced by how Boston picked the Knicks D apart last night?
Btw, speaking of Boston, how did Rose and Melo march into Boston without KP in January and win concincingly?
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=...
Did they decide to buy in for one night? Maybe KP's defense is a bigger problem than you understand.
And meanwhile, Shumpert and JR have been in the finals two years in a row, with a good shot to get there a third time. How was their play not sustainable? Maybe forcing them into the triangle wasn't sustainable.
There's a right way to play and a wrong way. No matter what you say it can't excuse Melo stopping the ball and not giving effort on D. It's not like Melo hasn't been told this the last 3 years. Melo still gets the same touches and shots but he's less of a Team Player this year.
Why do you insist on bringing up KP as if he's on the same level as Melo and Rose in terms of where they are in their careers? By now Melo should have adjusted his mentality to being more of a leader and teacher. More of a facilitator who makes things easier for his younger teammates. Show them how it's done. Win or Lose everyone would praise Melo for doing that but that isn't what he did this year.
It's not KP's fault or Melo's fault. Or even Rose's. It's the guy who assembled the clumsy ass roster and then made them play a system that didn't play to their strengths.
That said, this thread was made because the Knicks without Melo and Rose barely beat a tired, mediocre Heat team. So why is it not fair to note that they concincingly beat Boston without KP? A starter's experience in the league has no bearing on how much they impact the game. I'm as much a KP fan as anyone, but I've been saying all season that playing him and Melo at the forwards together next to a center was a recipe for defeat. They need to play small ball and they needed a better version of Lance Thomas starting next to them all season in the front court instead of Noah. Imagine if Phil had signed someone like that for $72m instead of Noah? But, no, easier to blame Melo for the teammates he didn't sign.
nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!
Why not look at the dynamics of everything..
Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.
No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.
Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..
Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!
This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.
The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.
OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..
Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!
TOUCH TIME RANGE GP G FREQ FGM FGA FG% EFG%http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shot...
Touch < 2 Seconds 71 71 42.0% 3.6 7.9 45.9 56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds 71 70 43.2% 3.3 8.1 41.2 43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds 71 68 14.8% 1.2 2.8 43.7 45.9Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!
STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.
Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!
This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!
Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.
Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.
Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?
You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.
Oh don't worry, I'm making it.
And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.
You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.
Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.
You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.
Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.
Make that thread. Awesome research. Phil trading Melo is a pretty scary prospect. In addition to bad roster construction, lack of player/coach continuity, and bad contracts, Phil sucks at getting anything close to value in most trades.That's not "awesome research"! That team no longer existed by the time Phil took over. What's the point of referring to it? Melo has a different role with the reduced talent than if he had great players around him. This is ALWAYS the case for great players in sports. Sure it's easy when you have a loaded team.
Why does Melo get the big bucks??? It's not for when things are easy! In the end the truth of who Melo is came out. He knew from last year what was needed and demanded by Phil. He was told and his response was to be a selfish and stubborn player rather than to buy in and be unselfish. We don't need that from our Star player.
So if you were made president of a company, you'd go out and pay top dollar for a master programmer and try to turn him into your HR director? Smart bosses put their employees in positions to succeed.
You're analogy is off. Melo was at his best last year and should've continued along that path and improved on that approach to the game. It's actually the case that his "smart boss" was right and Melo should've looked to be more of a facilitator and saved some energy for defense. That's what he did last year and we needed more of that this year. Instead he's passing less and defending less.
If Melo was at his best last season, why was it the second fewest wins of his career? Could it be... gasp... the players Phil surrounded him with?? Why does Melo have to change but not Phil? The game has changed. Melo has actually had some success playing the newer style the league does now. Why is Phil committed to proving his old fashioned way can work without Jordan or Kobe or Shaq? Pride goeth before the lottery.
The lineup was all wrong to win in the league as it plays now. Phil has been vainly trying to prove the Triangle can work. We were all told that wasn't the case when he signed Hornacek, but then he forced Hornacek to run the Triangle. It's a league wide joke. I can only hope it doesn't negatively effect the draft pick.
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!
Why not look at the dynamics of everything..
Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.
No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.
Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..
Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!
This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.
The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.
OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..
Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!
TOUCH TIME RANGE GP G FREQ FGM FGA FG% EFG%http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shot...
Touch < 2 Seconds 71 71 42.0% 3.6 7.9 45.9 56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds 71 70 43.2% 3.3 8.1 41.2 43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds 71 68 14.8% 1.2 2.8 43.7 45.9Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!
STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.
Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!
This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!
Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.
Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.
Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?
You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.
Oh don't worry, I'm making it.
And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.
You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.
Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.
You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.
Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.
We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.
The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!
Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.
Buy into what? Hornacek's system didn't put Melo at the point forward, that's why his assists were done. Noah didn't score at the percentage Rolo did, that's why Melo's assists were down. Rose held the ball longer than Calderon and wasn't available for kick out threes, that's why Melo's assists were down. Are you telling me you really don't see these things on the court? You really just see the mess this roster is and your honest best guess to figure it out is that Melo and Rose don't want to win badly enough? Do Melo and Rose seem particularly happy about this season?
How does Melo and Rose's effort on defense have anything to do with the obvious structural issues this team has on D - as evidenced by how Boston picked the Knicks D apart last night?
Btw, speaking of Boston, how did Rose and Melo march into Boston without KP in January and win concincingly?
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=...
Did they decide to buy in for one night? Maybe KP's defense is a bigger problem than you understand.
And meanwhile, Shumpert and JR have been in the finals two years in a row, with a good shot to get there a third time. How was their play not sustainable? Maybe forcing them into the triangle wasn't sustainable.
There's a right way to play and a wrong way. No matter what you say it can't excuse Melo stopping the ball and not giving effort on D. It's not like Melo hasn't been told this the last 3 years. Melo still gets the same touches and shots but he's less of a Team Player this year.
Why do you insist on bringing up KP as if he's on the same level as Melo and Rose in terms of where they are in their careers? By now Melo should have adjusted his mentality to being more of a leader and teacher. More of a facilitator who makes things easier for his younger teammates. Show them how it's done. Win or Lose everyone would praise Melo for doing that but that isn't what he did this year.
It's not KP's fault or Melo's fault. Or even Rose's. It's the guy who assembled the clumsy ass roster and then made them play a system that didn't play to their strengths.
That said, this thread was made because the Knicks without Melo and Rose barely beat a tired, mediocre Heat team. So why is it not fair to note that they concincingly beat Boston without KP? A starter's experience in the league has no bearing on how much they impact the game. I'm as much a KP fan as anyone, but I've been saying all season that playing him and Melo at the forwards together next to a center was a recipe for defeat. They need to play small ball and they needed a better version of Lance Thomas starting next to them all season in the front court instead of Noah. Imagine if Phil had signed someone like that for $72m instead of Noah? But, no, easier to blame Melo for the teammates he didn't sign.
Just like Melo you just don't get it. Regardless of Wins or Losses there's a right way to play the game and Melo departed from it this year. THAT is the most important thing to focus on. When your best player is playing in a manner that actually stifles the team play and weakens the defense then you can't win. Then you add in other players like Rose who just like Melo rebelled against the notion of playing Team Ball and giving Max Effort. That's how you lose 16 close games that you could easily have won.
I for one am tired of watching this crap. No it's not all Melo's fault but was he a force for positive change??? Did Melo do everything in his power to help the team succeed this year??? HELL F'n NO!!! I'M DONE!!! Why defend a player who should be leading us to the playoffs when he's dogging it like that?
nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!
Why not look at the dynamics of everything..
Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.
No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.
Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..
Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!
This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.
The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.
OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..
Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!
TOUCH TIME RANGE GP G FREQ FGM FGA FG% EFG%http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shot...
Touch < 2 Seconds 71 71 42.0% 3.6 7.9 45.9 56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds 71 70 43.2% 3.3 8.1 41.2 43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds 71 68 14.8% 1.2 2.8 43.7 45.9Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!
STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.
Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!
This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!
Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.
Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.
Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?
You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.
Oh don't worry, I'm making it.
And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.
You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.
Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.
You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.
Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.
We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.
The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!
Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.
Buy into what? Hornacek's system didn't put Melo at the point forward, that's why his assists were done. Noah didn't score at the percentage Rolo did, that's why Melo's assists were down. Rose held the ball longer than Calderon and wasn't available for kick out threes, that's why Melo's assists were down. Are you telling me you really don't see these things on the court? You really just see the mess this roster is and your honest best guess to figure it out is that Melo and Rose don't want to win badly enough? Do Melo and Rose seem particularly happy about this season?
How does Melo and Rose's effort on defense have anything to do with the obvious structural issues this team has on D - as evidenced by how Boston picked the Knicks D apart last night?
Btw, speaking of Boston, how did Rose and Melo march into Boston without KP in January and win concincingly?
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=...
Did they decide to buy in for one night? Maybe KP's defense is a bigger problem than you understand.
And meanwhile, Shumpert and JR have been in the finals two years in a row, with a good shot to get there a third time. How was their play not sustainable? Maybe forcing them into the triangle wasn't sustainable.
There's a right way to play and a wrong way. No matter what you say it can't excuse Melo stopping the ball and not giving effort on D. It's not like Melo hasn't been told this the last 3 years. Melo still gets the same touches and shots but he's less of a Team Player this year.
Why do you insist on bringing up KP as if he's on the same level as Melo and Rose in terms of where they are in their careers? By now Melo should have adjusted his mentality to being more of a leader and teacher. More of a facilitator who makes things easier for his younger teammates. Show them how it's done. Win or Lose everyone would praise Melo for doing that but that isn't what he did this year.
It's not KP's fault or Melo's fault. Or even Rose's. It's the guy who assembled the clumsy ass roster and then made them play a system that didn't play to their strengths.
That said, this thread was made because the Knicks without Melo and Rose barely beat a tired, mediocre Heat team. So why is it not fair to note that they concincingly beat Boston without KP? A starter's experience in the league has no bearing on how much they impact the game. I'm as much a KP fan as anyone, but I've been saying all season that playing him and Melo at the forwards together next to a center was a recipe for defeat. They need to play small ball and they needed a better version of Lance Thomas starting next to them all season in the front court instead of Noah. Imagine if Phil had signed someone like that for $72m instead of Noah? But, no, easier to blame Melo for the teammates he didn't sign.
Just like Melo you just don't get it. Regardless of Wins or Losses there's a right way to play the game and Melo departed from it this year. THAT is the most important thing to focus on. When your best player is playing in a manner that actually stifles the team play and weakens the defense then you can't win. Then you add in other players like Rose who just like Melo rebelled against the notion of playing Team Ball and giving Max Effort. That's how you lose 16 close games that you could easily have won.I for one am tired of watching this crap. No it's not all Melo's fault but was he a force for positive change??? Did Melo do everything in his power to help the team succeed this year??? HELL F'n NO!!! I'M DONE!!! Why defend a player who should be leading us to the playoffs when he's dogging it like that?
If Melo is stifling the team, why did they win in Boston so convincingly? Based on your childish argument, isn't there more evidence KP is actually stifling the team with his 7% assist rate and too many dumb fouls and terrible D? I'm trying to give you a bigger picture, but if you want to blame one player, KP is probably more to blame than Melo. Tell me about KP's defense this season. Please. I'll wait.
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:holfresh wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!
Why not look at the dynamics of everything..
Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.
No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.
Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..
Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!
This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.
The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.
OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..
Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!
TOUCH TIME RANGE GP G FREQ FGM FGA FG% EFG%http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shot...
Touch < 2 Seconds 71 71 42.0% 3.6 7.9 45.9 56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds 71 70 43.2% 3.3 8.1 41.2 43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds 71 68 14.8% 1.2 2.8 43.7 45.9Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!
STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.
Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.
STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!
This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!
Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.
Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.
Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?
You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.
Oh don't worry, I'm making it.
And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.
You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.
Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.
You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.
Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.
We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.
The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!
Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.
Buy into what? Hornacek's system didn't put Melo at the point forward, that's why his assists were done. Noah didn't score at the percentage Rolo did, that's why Melo's assists were down. Rose held the ball longer than Calderon and wasn't available for kick out threes, that's why Melo's assists were down. Are you telling me you really don't see these things on the court? You really just see the mess this roster is and your honest best guess to figure it out is that Melo and Rose don't want to win badly enough? Do Melo and Rose seem particularly happy about this season?
How does Melo and Rose's effort on defense have anything to do with the obvious structural issues this team has on D - as evidenced by how Boston picked the Knicks D apart last night?
Btw, speaking of Boston, how did Rose and Melo march into Boston without KP in January and win concincingly?
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=...
Did they decide to buy in for one night? Maybe KP's defense is a bigger problem than you understand.
And meanwhile, Shumpert and JR have been in the finals two years in a row, with a good shot to get there a third time. How was their play not sustainable? Maybe forcing them into the triangle wasn't sustainable.
There's a right way to play and a wrong way. No matter what you say it can't excuse Melo stopping the ball and not giving effort on D. It's not like Melo hasn't been told this the last 3 years. Melo still gets the same touches and shots but he's less of a Team Player this year.
Why do you insist on bringing up KP as if he's on the same level as Melo and Rose in terms of where they are in their careers? By now Melo should have adjusted his mentality to being more of a leader and teacher. More of a facilitator who makes things easier for his younger teammates. Show them how it's done. Win or Lose everyone would praise Melo for doing that but that isn't what he did this year.
It's not KP's fault or Melo's fault. Or even Rose's. It's the guy who assembled the clumsy ass roster and then made them play a system that didn't play to their strengths.
That said, this thread was made because the Knicks without Melo and Rose barely beat a tired, mediocre Heat team. So why is it not fair to note that they concincingly beat Boston without KP? A starter's experience in the league has no bearing on how much they impact the game. I'm as much a KP fan as anyone, but I've been saying all season that playing him and Melo at the forwards together next to a center was a recipe for defeat. They need to play small ball and they needed a better version of Lance Thomas starting next to them all season in the front court instead of Noah. Imagine if Phil had signed someone like that for $72m instead of Noah? But, no, easier to blame Melo for the teammates he didn't sign.
Just like Melo you just don't get it. Regardless of Wins or Losses there's a right way to play the game and Melo departed from it this year. THAT is the most important thing to focus on. When your best player is playing in a manner that actually stifles the team play and weakens the defense then you can't win. Then you add in other players like Rose who just like Melo rebelled against the notion of playing Team Ball and giving Max Effort. That's how you lose 16 close games that you could easily have won.I for one am tired of watching this crap. No it's not all Melo's fault but was he a force for positive change??? Did Melo do everything in his power to help the team succeed this year??? HELL F'n NO!!! I'M DONE!!! Why defend a player who should be leading us to the playoffs when he's dogging it like that?
If Melo is stifling the team, why did they win in Boston so convincingly? Based on your childish argument, isn't there more evidence KP is actually stifling the team with his 7% assist rate and too many dumb fouls and terrible D? I'm trying to give you a bigger picture, but if you want to blame one player, KP is probably more to blame than Melo. Tell me about KP's defense this season. Please. I'll wait.
Right cuz we should be holding KP to the same standard as guys like Melo and Rose? KP is not expected to be leading the charge at this stage. The fact that you think it's a valid argument is surprising. KP shouldn't even have been able to do as well as he has with his underdeveloped body and overall game. He's got so much to learn and so much growing to do. Melo is a GROWN ASS MAN!
I don't know how many times we have to say this but no one is saying it's ALL ON MELO in terms of W/L's but he's a MAJOR contributor to that end. Melo as the centerpiece has to do a better job or there is no point of having him in that role. So at this point i'm praying for him to ask for a trade. Not because I think the team suddenly becomes a great team without him. That's just a stupid argument. I just think Melo sets the wrong example and he's controlling too much of what the team does for him to play selfish and lazy ball like he has. The same goes for Rose. Both of them were guilty of the same things.
Nobody wins except the person with a singular focus that an abstract concept is always better.
"A better version of Lance"....Poof, I win!!!
"Imagine if Phil put $72million to someone like that!!!
Like who? "Poof, Nalod wins".......
Same thing......
Insert "we got nothing in return for Tyson, Shump, JR....ETC"..........
Then say "Sean Mark's could be our GM!!, he is better!!!"
Then forget we have a GM, his name is Mills.
Then insert "Yeah, but he meddling old fool!".......Is that quantifiable? The team was doing so well before Phil and his Three sided friends came to town?
"We won 54 games!
Nalod and the rest remind that the season was book ended by a great start with Sheed and Kidd, and finished with maybe the best month of Melo's career, and a one round victory in the playoffs.
Bonn1997 wrote:blkexec wrote:The scary part about this team is.....Dolan is still here!
Yeah OR
The scary thing is...
Dolan finally let a president have full autonomy. And the record is even worse!
Ha ha! Dolan's interference pre-Phil was artificially inflating our record all these years.
crzymdups wrote:TPercy wrote:On a side note. I was going through synergy stats on Nba.com and guess who is 3rd in the league in isolation possession???Kobe Bryant in 2009?
No, no wait - Michael Jordan in 1997!
Haha no. This Knicks team as a whole. We are trying to create a team oreinted environment yet we iso more thn most of the NBA. I wonder why??
TPercy wrote:crzymdups wrote:TPercy wrote:On a side note. I was going through synergy stats on Nba.com and guess who is 3rd in the league in isolation possession???Kobe Bryant in 2009?
No, no wait - Michael Jordan in 1997!
Haha no. This Knicks team as a whole. We are trying to create a team oreinted environment yet we iso more thn most of the NBA. I wonder why??
KP's 7% assist rate?
Ball is moving tonight with KP and Rose out. Guess Melo wasn't the problem after all!
(Note: I am joking, but I also find the premise of this thread to be silly)
knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Bunch of D-Leaguers?
KP a deleaguer?
Willy a deleaguer?
Rose a dleaguer?
Lee a deleaguer?
How about KOQ, Holiday, BJ, etc...?
Second, Melo isn't the centerpiece of this team. This team dosen't revolve around Melo or quite frankly anyone for that matter. It revolves around trying to put together an environment of system basketball and Melo( despite the fact that isolation basketball is very inefficient in today's game) still persists.
Nevertheless, This shouldn't detract from the fact that Phil has failed to create that enviornment of system basketball.
TPercy wrote:knicks1248 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?
I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.
Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.
Good post crush
I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.
Bunch of D-Leaguers?
KP a deleaguer?
Willy a deleaguer?
Rose a dleaguer?
Lee a deleaguer?
How about KOQ, Holiday, BJ, etc...?Second, Melo isn't the centerpiece of this team. This team dosen't revolve around Melo or quite frankly anyone for that matter. It revolves around trying to put together an environment of system basketball and Melo( despite the fact that isolation basketball is very inefficient in today's game) still persists.
Nevertheless, This shouldn't detract from the fact that Phil has failed to create that enviornment of system basketball.
+100000000000000000000
Totally on point, while I'm not a Melo fan, I have to admit that as a player Melo made the playoff pretty much every year in Denver (before coming to the Knicks). Now Phil had a lot success as a coach, but in the front office, aside from KP and WH none of his signings and trades have make the Knicks any better. He keeps trading away NBA role players for broken ones and he keeps losing. The only thing the Knicks got it going on right now is the lottery pick and he is screwing that too.