Knicks · Sign the "Fire Phil and Dolan" petition. (page 3)
Its the chemistry.
The NTC, well in my view Melo and his contract are similar in nature to Dolan like contracts. Phil inherited Melo. Would you have preferred Melo walk for nothing in return?
NOah is on Phil, but for once its not like we don't have a player in waiting. Willy fills the void where in the past we did not have assets growing.
In the past, we had bad deals, unproductive players, no picks, and no develping players.
This is why the current state of Knick is not a disaster.
blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:arkrud wrote:blkexec wrote:Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.
It is amazing that some bbal fans think that winning team can be build in 2-3 years after being the below bottom crap...
10 years is plausible... but not always works.
People just have no clue...Funny, are you not the guy who, every chance he gets, gets on Melo for not doing it in just one!
Who ever said we should be winning a chip? Phil broke up a 54 win team. Said he needed to get rid of players that "didn't play the right way" "weren't his kind of players". Two who went on to contribute to championship team. Two who, watching yesterday's Cavs game, are more athletic and better defenders than anyone we have. He signed Melo to max, under the impression he was building to win but went on to reset 3 times? His draft picks, in first 2 years, have all failed or most have been released/traded. Except for lotto Gaines pick and Gaines Wioly pick. ((Not so impressive as it was from same team he scouted) And handcuffed us for 4 years with his (classic young movement rebuild ) trade for that
injury free athletic Noah guy.PHil broke up 37 win team. Don't be silly.
Phil hired Gaines. So you think PHil made all the picks that failed, but Gaine picks stuck? Reality is the organization made all the picks.
Gaines is part of the process that drafted Early.Phil broke up
Bargnani, Melo, JR, Shump, Tyson, Felton.
Take out tyson and Felton, the core of Melo, JR, Shump Bargs won 17 games. Hired a coach in training after his first choice made a smart move to GSW. No fault of Phil's, it was just smart.
In my mind, Kerr's spinal fluid leak would have likley made him walk last year. You don't walk from a championship squad. IN any event Hornachek would be our coach.
I know you want and need to fulifl every crevice of your soul with Phil hate, but there are things your just ignoring over and over again.One is the 54 win team was not sustainable. Look at the month to month stats of some players and wins per month. You'll see the Knicks came out of training camp red hot. Sheed and Kidd were awesome. Then they both fell apart physically. Melo carried that team in april that season so they could get a great seed. Kudos!!! Best season of the Melo era!!!! It was fun, it was unexptected, and they made no noise in the playoffs. can't blame that on PHil.
Next season, 37 wins and Tyson wanted out, felton was toast, Bargs was a disaster, and the team was in decline BEFORE Phil was hired mid march of 2014.
Dont think anyone will disagree with you about Bags. Was a terrible subtraction. But doesnt that help my argument?
As he was not part of the 54 win year. Shump was hurt and Smith was suspended and had rough start. But yes 37 wins in spite what I have just mentioned. But how are players he got rid of doing? How are his first two years of free agents and draft picks doing? And please dont start with KP.EVERYTHING starts with KP!!! That's like saying we should ignore Duncan or Lebron. KP has the highest upside of any player we've drafted since Ewing. He needs much more development but KP is the starting point for the future of this team.
No one likes losing but that's generally necessary if you want to draft impact players. Unfortunately Phil didn't have the luxury of all his picks or perhaps this would look a lot better already. As it is Phil did a pretty good job with what he had.
For those Media and fans bashing Phil, we all saw Free Agency the last two years. Exactly who could the Knicks get that would've guaranteed success? Would keeping RoLo have guaranteed a playoff birth?
I can't think of any signings or move Phil had a legit chance to make that would guarantee success. Sometimes it just needs to be rebuilt. I think that's what we all learned.
Players like Jennings and others (ex ATL PG) was hopping the bright lights. Everybody wants a piece of the apple and the attention. But Phil and the triangle puts a dent into that. The Triangle gives off a bad perception right now, so dynamic players would rather go elsewhere. This is part of the reason why nobody wanted to come here. And it's not going to get any better.....In fact, it's already getting worse.
I'm not saying Phil can't attract anybody, but it's not like players will be lined up anymore. If the Triangle made D.Rose look suspect....and Jennings to run off to the Wizzards, these new age guards ain't ready! Phil needs a group of vets, with high IQ.
No he needs a group of YOUNG STUDS WITH HIGH IQ. Phil needs to keep going in the direction he's headed. I think he sees now that Old Heads won't work but kids are far more receptive to the coaching and give max effort. We don't need to worry about other team's players right now. If someone wants to be here they'll sign but we need to grow our own.
nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:arkrud wrote:blkexec wrote:Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.
It is amazing that some bbal fans think that winning team can be build in 2-3 years after being the below bottom crap...
10 years is plausible... but not always works.
People just have no clue...Funny, are you not the guy who, every chance he gets, gets on Melo for not doing it in just one!
Who ever said we should be winning a chip? Phil broke up a 54 win team. Said he needed to get rid of players that "didn't play the right way" "weren't his kind of players". Two who went on to contribute to championship team. Two who, watching yesterday's Cavs game, are more athletic and better defenders than anyone we have. He signed Melo to max, under the impression he was building to win but went on to reset 3 times? His draft picks, in first 2 years, have all failed or most have been released/traded. Except for lotto Gaines pick and Gaines Wioly pick. ((Not so impressive as it was from same team he scouted) And handcuffed us for 4 years with his (classic young movement rebuild ) trade for that
injury free athletic Noah guy.PHil broke up 37 win team. Don't be silly.
Phil hired Gaines. So you think PHil made all the picks that failed, but Gaine picks stuck? Reality is the organization made all the picks.
Gaines is part of the process that drafted Early.Phil broke up
Bargnani, Melo, JR, Shump, Tyson, Felton.
Take out tyson and Felton, the core of Melo, JR, Shump Bargs won 17 games. Hired a coach in training after his first choice made a smart move to GSW. No fault of Phil's, it was just smart.
In my mind, Kerr's spinal fluid leak would have likley made him walk last year. You don't walk from a championship squad. IN any event Hornachek would be our coach.
I know you want and need to fulifl every crevice of your soul with Phil hate, but there are things your just ignoring over and over again.One is the 54 win team was not sustainable. Look at the month to month stats of some players and wins per month. You'll see the Knicks came out of training camp red hot. Sheed and Kidd were awesome. Then they both fell apart physically. Melo carried that team in april that season so they could get a great seed. Kudos!!! Best season of the Melo era!!!! It was fun, it was unexptected, and they made no noise in the playoffs. can't blame that on PHil.
Next season, 37 wins and Tyson wanted out, felton was toast, Bargs was a disaster, and the team was in decline BEFORE Phil was hired mid march of 2014.
Dont think anyone will disagree with you about Bags. Was a terrible subtraction. But doesnt that help my argument?
As he was not part of the 54 win year. Shump was hurt and Smith was suspended and had rough start. But yes 37 wins in spite what I have just mentioned. But how are players he got rid of doing? How are his first two years of free agents and draft picks doing? And please dont start with KP.EVERYTHING starts with KP!!! That's like saying we should ignore Duncan or Lebron. KP has the highest upside of any player we've drafted since Ewing. He needs much more development but KP is the starting point for the future of this team.
No one likes losing but that's generally necessary if you want to draft impact players. Unfortunately Phil didn't have the luxury of all his picks or perhaps this would look a lot better already. As it is Phil did a pretty good job with what he had.
For those Media and fans bashing Phil, we all saw Free Agency the last two years. Exactly who could the Knicks get that would've guaranteed success? Would keeping RoLo have guaranteed a playoff birth?
I can't think of any signings or move Phil had a legit chance to make that would guarantee success. Sometimes it just needs to be rebuilt. I think that's what we all learned.
My point was that I hoped you had more than one move to support Phil's accomplishments. Specially one made with a top 4 pick and one that was found by Gaines. I gave plenty why he has failed. And putting KP in the same category as Duncon or Lebron is not only unfair to KP but a huge reach this early.
Question, If no one was available in free agency, why would Phil choose to break up a roster? Surely a good GM knows which contracts are expiring and who may fit his plan. I know...because he was rebuilding. So getting rid of his own draft picks and first year free agents, is someone making good judgements and trying to rebuild? Signimg an injury prone 32 year old center to 4 years, is rebuilding? Maxing Melo to a max deal is rebuilding? Bringing in injury prone Rose? Oh yes, it was because he wanted to tank. Hard to believe that he made all these moves this past off season so they would help the team tank? Makes no sense to me. You guys can continue to think that was his plan. I will continue to believe he does not care about the Knicks. He will just continue to bring in guys that will help show the world his precious Triangle can still work. Luckily for Phil, we are so desperate that its okay if our GM comes in here and does a horrible job. Due to the possible draft pick. I hope you guys are right.
HofstraBBall wrote:nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Nalod wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:arkrud wrote:blkexec wrote:Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.
It is amazing that some bbal fans think that winning team can be build in 2-3 years after being the below bottom crap...
10 years is plausible... but not always works.
People just have no clue...Funny, are you not the guy who, every chance he gets, gets on Melo for not doing it in just one!
Who ever said we should be winning a chip? Phil broke up a 54 win team. Said he needed to get rid of players that "didn't play the right way" "weren't his kind of players". Two who went on to contribute to championship team. Two who, watching yesterday's Cavs game, are more athletic and better defenders than anyone we have. He signed Melo to max, under the impression he was building to win but went on to reset 3 times? His draft picks, in first 2 years, have all failed or most have been released/traded. Except for lotto Gaines pick and Gaines Wioly pick. ((Not so impressive as it was from same team he scouted) And handcuffed us for 4 years with his (classic young movement rebuild ) trade for that
injury free athletic Noah guy.PHil broke up 37 win team. Don't be silly.
Phil hired Gaines. So you think PHil made all the picks that failed, but Gaine picks stuck? Reality is the organization made all the picks.
Gaines is part of the process that drafted Early.Phil broke up
Bargnani, Melo, JR, Shump, Tyson, Felton.
Take out tyson and Felton, the core of Melo, JR, Shump Bargs won 17 games. Hired a coach in training after his first choice made a smart move to GSW. No fault of Phil's, it was just smart.
In my mind, Kerr's spinal fluid leak would have likley made him walk last year. You don't walk from a championship squad. IN any event Hornachek would be our coach.
I know you want and need to fulifl every crevice of your soul with Phil hate, but there are things your just ignoring over and over again.One is the 54 win team was not sustainable. Look at the month to month stats of some players and wins per month. You'll see the Knicks came out of training camp red hot. Sheed and Kidd were awesome. Then they both fell apart physically. Melo carried that team in april that season so they could get a great seed. Kudos!!! Best season of the Melo era!!!! It was fun, it was unexptected, and they made no noise in the playoffs. can't blame that on PHil.
Next season, 37 wins and Tyson wanted out, felton was toast, Bargs was a disaster, and the team was in decline BEFORE Phil was hired mid march of 2014.
Dont think anyone will disagree with you about Bags. Was a terrible subtraction. But doesnt that help my argument?
As he was not part of the 54 win year. Shump was hurt and Smith was suspended and had rough start. But yes 37 wins in spite what I have just mentioned. But how are players he got rid of doing? How are his first two years of free agents and draft picks doing? And please dont start with KP.EVERYTHING starts with KP!!! That's like saying we should ignore Duncan or Lebron. KP has the highest upside of any player we've drafted since Ewing. He needs much more development but KP is the starting point for the future of this team.
No one likes losing but that's generally necessary if you want to draft impact players. Unfortunately Phil didn't have the luxury of all his picks or perhaps this would look a lot better already. As it is Phil did a pretty good job with what he had.
For those Media and fans bashing Phil, we all saw Free Agency the last two years. Exactly who could the Knicks get that would've guaranteed success? Would keeping RoLo have guaranteed a playoff birth?
I can't think of any signings or move Phil had a legit chance to make that would guarantee success. Sometimes it just needs to be rebuilt. I think that's what we all learned.
My point was that I hoped you had more than one move to support Phil's accomplishments. Specially one made with a top 4 pick and one that was found by Gaines. I gave plenty why he has failed. And putting KP in the same category as Duncon or Lebron is not only unfair to KP but a huge reach this early.
Question, If no one was available in free agency, why would Phil choose to break up a roster? Surely a good GM knows which contracts are expiring and who may fit his plan. I know...because he was rebuilding. So getting rid of his own draft picks and first year free agents, is someone making good judgements and trying to rebuild? Signimg an injury prone 32 year old center to 4 years, is rebuilding? Maxing Melo to a max deal is rebuilding? Bringing in injury prone Rose? Oh yes, it was because he wanted to tank. Hard to believe that he made all these moves this past off season so they would help the team tank? Makes no sense to me. You guys can continue to think that was his plan. I will continue to believe he does not care about the Knicks. He will just continue to bring in guys that will help show the world his precious Triangle can still work. Luckily for Phil, we are so desperate that its okay if our GM comes in here and does a horrible job. Due to the possible draft pick. I hope you guys are right.
It's really simple. NO ONE has ever said this was s pure rebuild from day one. Phil never said that and he also NEVER said this was going to be a 100% Win Now process. No, he said he wanted to protect the team's future and have a future component to this franchise. It's that simple.
Phil was always doing both. He never sold out to win now and how else do you explain the continual roster turnovers? Clearly he wasn't going ALL IN on Win Now. Not only does the team have about six rookies on the roster but they will be adding more young talent this summer and probably less vets going forward.
HofstraBBall wrote:Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:EnySpree wrote:Seriously get the fuck outta here with this threadYou get the fuck outta here. With your smart ass, no frills, no comment, simple agenda, no brain, no point making, toy dog barking ass!!
Your the moron responding, with zero counter point, to a thread you think has no point. Genius!!
Am I the only one who finds this hilarious?
Signed,
Grammar policeGood job Crabtree! You're life must be filled with tons of excitement combing through forums for typos!! Specially with auto correct and talk to text apps.
Actually my excitement is in finding ironic posts on forums but i guess you missed that!
Now I need the excitement of guessing at what you actually typed or said to yield such irony
Since Phil has been here, Dolan has taken a quiet back seat. THAT alone is reason enough to keep Phil in place if we tank for the next three years.
Secondly, before they off with their "fire Phil" advocacies, how about creating the alternative narrative to Phil. Who does Dolan trust enough to run the show for him? Name some names. And given those candidates, who you plan on bringing in who would make the same difference that Phil makes.
And by this I mean, who can stand up to both Dolan and the rabid-dog fan contingent so that we aren't back to trading our draft picks into the next century for instant gratification trades. Need an example? My guess is that there are still delusional fans out there who believe Melo can win it all with just a few more complementary playahs.
Phil haters don't need a petition, they need medication.
Having said all that. Phil hasn't been perfect but why demand we hold anyone accountable for not being perfect? Crazy.
So you didn't like this trade or that signing? Give me an example of another team in our relative condition 3 years ago who got it all right. Okay, let's make it easier - put Melo on any of those teams and give us a credible narrative of how that team would have won something.
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. For the short term, Phil is more than good enough.
Lets go in order:
Jose Calderon 2014 Trade - Never really was the same Jose of the Raptors time. Good passer and shooter, nice teammates, but not a starter.
Aaron Affalo 2015 FA - Decent get but again not really a starting 2 at the point the Knicks got him
Joakim Noah 2016 FA - Bulls FO said it loud and clear. Proven this year he is no longer a starter.
Derrick Rose 2016 Trade - Probably best veteran player Phil got, still an outstanding individual talent but not a good fit or the player he once was.
Then there's Carmelo Anthony 2014 FA kept - given a NTC as part of negotiations to keep him. That was another mistake as Melo has declined each year since. Melo was a much better player in 2011 than he is today. Healthier, younger, better. Still a damn good player, a top 25 player, but not one you choose as the franchise player who gets a NTC.
The one veteran he did sign to a great deal, who was in his peak and playing like a player with fresh young legs that still had prime years head in Robin Lopez he traded away for Rose. That was a mistake in hindsight, even though Willy is a more skilled player than RoLo, we could have used RoLo more longterm. Oh and Courtney Lee was solid, but lets see how he looks in a year or two. So far Lee was a good move but only his first year of the deal.
Those are the mistakes in my book. Too many veterans brought in who couldn't play like they once could, who were paid like they were still able to play as if they were in their primes. All this talk about system, coaching, trade talk. Noah, Rose and Melo make a combined 65 million nearly. They don't even give half the value there. In my book, Melo's a 15 million a year player making 25. Rose is a 10 million year player making 21. Noah is a 6 million a year player in value making 18. Just bad bad moves by Phil.
He needs to clean up his "veteran" mess and continue to rebuild with more talent like Willy,and KP, Keep taking chances on D League or 2nd round picks like Holiday, Thomas, O'Quinn, Baker. NDour, Randle. Internationals like Kuz. I like that stuff plenty. I dislike the veteran moves just as much as I like these moves. He's got to clean this up, and it starts by trading Melo, letting Rose walk and drafting well in 2017 NBA draft. Then going out and making smart decisions in free agency and abandoning the declining veteran love fest (No more Afflalo, Calderon, Rose, Noah type of moves).
nyknickzingis wrote:Phil's problem has been the veterans he picks are all on decline, with the wheels kinda falling off for them and little gas left in the tank.Lets go in order:
Jose Calderon 2014 Trade - Never really was the same Jose of the Raptors time. Good passer and shooter, nice teammates, but not a starter.
Aaron Affalo 2015 FA - Decent get but again not really a starting 2 at the point the Knicks got him
Joakim Noah 2016 FA - Bulls FO said it loud and clear. Proven this year he is no longer a starter.
Derrick Rose 2016 Trade - Probably best veteran player Phil got, still an outstanding individual talent but not a good fit or the player he once was.Then there's Carmelo Anthony 2014 FA kept - given a NTC as part of negotiations to keep him. That was another mistake as Melo has declined each year since. Melo was a much better player in 2011 than he is today. Healthier, younger, better. Still a damn good player, a top 25 player, but not one you choose as the franchise player who gets a NTC.
The one veteran he did sign to a great deal, who was in his peak and playing like a player with fresh young legs that still had prime years head in Robin Lopez he traded away for Rose. That was a mistake in hindsight, even though Willy is a more skilled player than RoLo, we could have used RoLo more longterm. Oh and Courtney Lee was solid, but lets see how he looks in a year or two. So far Lee was a good move but only his first year of the deal.
Those are the mistakes in my book. Too many veterans brought in who couldn't play like they once could, who were paid like they were still able to play as if they were in their primes. All this talk about system, coaching, trade talk. Noah, Rose and Melo make a combined 65 million nearly. They don't even give half the value there. In my book, Melo's a 15 million a year player making 25. Rose is a 10 million year player making 21. Noah is a 6 million a year player in value making 18. Just bad bad moves by Phil.
He needs to clean up his "veteran" mess and continue to rebuild with more talent like Willy,and KP, Keep taking chances on D League or 2nd round picks like Holiday, Thomas, O'Quinn, Baker. NDour, Randle. Internationals like Kuz. I like that stuff plenty. I dislike the veteran moves just as much as I like these moves. He's got to clean this up, and it starts by trading Melo, letting Rose walk and drafting well in 2017 NBA draft. Then going out and making smart decisions in free agency and abandoning the declining veteran love fest (No more Afflalo, Calderon, Rose, Noah type of moves).
Okay, reasonable criticism even if I disagree.
I forget the nitty gritty details of the Calderon exchange but my memory is that Phil inherited a mess of bad attitude in Chandler, a media storm in Felton-a gun-and an angry wife, no draft picks and so on. The same fans criticizing Phil now claimed that "no one wants these players", blah, blah, blah. But Phil *did* get rid of them admittedly at a steep discount. Calderon was never anything more that a stopgap transition from Felton to whatever future PG will eventually shine. To claim that Calderon was expected to be anything more is just not plausible.
Afflalo was a buddy of Melo's and was signed as another good buddy move that all the teams make these days after the Wade-LeBron-Bosh threesome in Miami. I do think a lot more was expected of him. In retrospect a disappointing signing but perfectly understandable at the time.
Rose/Noah was yet another buddy signing that again, all things considered, was a known risk but one worth taking. Rose is off the books, Noah remains as an albeit expensive but great team player - lots of energy and emotion. The broader and most important target that no one talks about is Holiday. He's a keeper with the most future of any of that bunch.
Was RoLo too much to pay? Not really. A great teammate and personality. He was good but not great. Our record this year would have likely been no better and the rooks would not have gotten the floor time they have. Is any of this reason to crucify Phil? Its a dubious argument, IMO.
The Melo signing was a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" proposition. Melo held the cards and Phil believed Melo was serious about becoming a world-class star. Water under the bridge.
The money is NBA funny money. I don't lose a wink of sleep over who makes what. There are SO MANY bad contracts out there in the NBA that to criticize the few we own now is disingenuous.
You accurately credit Phil with the youth movement he was building all along under the covers. It will blossom in a year or two which is, by all reasonable expectations, how long rebuilding a team takes if on a fast track (see: Philly).
None of it adds up to the malicious hate speech against Phil, Dolan, or their administrators.
Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Chandler wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:EnySpree wrote:Seriously get the fuck outta here with this threadYou get the fuck outta here. With your smart ass, no frills, no comment, simple agenda, no brain, no point making, toy dog barking ass!!
Your the moron responding, with zero counter point, to a thread you think has no point. Genius!!
Am I the only one who finds this hilarious?
Signed,
Grammar policeGood job Crabtree! You're life must be filled with tons of excitement combing through forums for typos!! Specially with auto correct and talk to text apps.
Actually my excitement is in finding ironic posts on forums but i guess you missed that!
Now I need the excitement of guessing at what you actually typed or said to yield such irony
Great job. That's sounds like fun. Now do you have anything to say on topic? If not, heard of some great typos on the "Guys that have nothing to do" thread. Think you started that one.
fwk00 wrote:Let's sign a petition that the Phil haters stick their petition up their hoophole.Since Phil has been here, Dolan has taken a quiet back seat. THAT alone is reason enough to keep Phil in place if we tank for the next three years.
Secondly, before they off with their "fire Phil" advocacies, how about creating the alternative narrative to Phil. Who does Dolan trust enough to run the show for him? Name some names. And given those candidates, who you plan on bringing in who would make the same difference that Phil makes.
And by this I mean, who can stand up to both Dolan and the rabid-dog fan contingent so that we aren't back to trading our draft picks into the next century for instant gratification trades. Need an example? My guess is that there are still delusional fans out there who believe Melo can win it all with just a few more complementary playahs.
Phil haters don't need a petition, they need medication.
Having said all that. Phil hasn't been perfect but why demand we hold anyone accountable for not being perfect? Crazy.So you didn't like this trade or that signing? Give me an example of another team in our relative condition 3 years ago who got it all right. Okay, let's make it easier - put Melo on any of those teams and give us a credible narrative of how that team would have won something.
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. For the short term, Phil is more than good enough.
Never had anything up mine. Think guys that say stuff like that have more experience.
For a guy that writes so much, you read very little. I said several times it is not about one move or being perfect. It is about several bad decisions made, long term direction and plan for Knicks. As well as adding to the negative perception he has created with several questionable statements. And yes, "this bad move and that bad move" is pretty important in judging a GM's success. Btw, this is a fan forum where those kind of things are usually discussed.
As for giving away draft picks, he has given away draft picks. Let's see if you can figure out which ones?
HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:Let's sign a petition that the Phil haters stick their petition up their hoophole.Since Phil has been here, Dolan has taken a quiet back seat. THAT alone is reason enough to keep Phil in place if we tank for the next three years.
Secondly, before they off with their "fire Phil" advocacies, how about creating the alternative narrative to Phil. Who does Dolan trust enough to run the show for him? Name some names. And given those candidates, who you plan on bringing in who would make the same difference that Phil makes.
And by this I mean, who can stand up to both Dolan and the rabid-dog fan contingent so that we aren't back to trading our draft picks into the next century for instant gratification trades. Need an example? My guess is that there are still delusional fans out there who believe Melo can win it all with just a few more complementary playahs.
Phil haters don't need a petition, they need medication.
Having said all that. Phil hasn't been perfect but why demand we hold anyone accountable for not being perfect? Crazy.So you didn't like this trade or that signing? Give me an example of another team in our relative condition 3 years ago who got it all right. Okay, let's make it easier - put Melo on any of those teams and give us a credible narrative of how that team would have won something.
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. For the short term, Phil is more than good enough.
Never had anything up mine. Think guys that say stuff like that have more experience.
For a guy that writes so much, you read very little. I said several times it is not about one move or being perfect. It is about several bad decisions made, long term direction and plan for Knicks. As well as adding to the negative perception he has created with several questionable statements. And yes, "this bad move and that bad move" is pretty important in judging a GM's success. Btw, this is a fan forum where those kind of things are usually discussed.
As for giving away draft picks, he has given away draft picks. Let's see if you can figure out which ones?
Everyone who comes here that has a brain understands it takes 5-7 years to turn a team around and the chances of doing so are thin. Look at the NBA historically to see how true that is. And go back a decade, look up Larry Brown's teams to see it play out.
The conundrum is that it is easy to just squeeze into the playoffs. Cheap thrills for the fans (we're an eternal year away from better than mediocre). Teams that do that enter a perpetual purgatory of mediocrity. They get lousy draft picks and don't get the pick of the litter FAs. Each year the contract constraints cements that even more.
NY is in the eye of this storm. What makes keeping Phil compelling is that he has tried to walk the tightrope of both making the playoffs but not getting trapped in the cycle of mediocrity that squeaking in can trigger. Phil has had no problem cutting bait on seasons that were going in that direction (e.g. tanking). There is both a logic and payoff to that strategy.
Now fans such as yourself look at the record and assume its representative of abject failure instead of seeing the strategy. Phil and co are smart enough to recognize that the lottery is a crap shoot and it is the art of recognizing talent and not necessarily lottery position is what's important.
This is the only way left to build up a winner.
So let's go back to that idea of a reasonable timeframe to build out a winner - 5-7 years. When we get to that point you can argue accountability is an issue. But to argue halfway into a long process that the process is not working because we're not there yet sounds like a child who will wet their pants if they don't get their way.
Losing is an unfortunate cost of improving. Yes, it absolutely sucks. But its a methodology and not a reflection on the architects.
Lets contrast the Knicks with the Clippers. Do the Clips suck because of Ballmer? Doc Rivers? A loaded roster? They are in the cycle of mediocrity. Aging. No draft picks. And so on. Are Dolan/Phil/et al *THAT* awful in comparison? You see its not about the individuals its about individuals trying to beat a system intended to keep 20+ teams down.
Lastly, Phil has taken out the garbage. Period. Call them bad trades but we have three undrafted rookies taking the place of those ever so valuable deep bench players you cherish so much who we should have gotten so much more for. The Hardaways and Grants of the NBA world are a dime a dozen. Some will get it together, some won't. Which was going to turn our season into playoff gold?
We have popular players now who will soon be gone if the assets we need are at stake. Its just the way this stuff works. Nothing more.
HofstraBBall wrote:EnySpree wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:EnySpree wrote:Seriously get the fuck outta here with this threadYou get the fuck outta here. With your snag ass, no comment, simple agenda brain, no point making, toy dog barking ass!!
Your the moron responding, with zero point, to a thread you think has no point. Genius!!
That's exactly how I would respond if this was my thread....
Fire Phil in the middle of a rebuild is the wrong move. He needs to ride out his contract and then then they need to transition someone.
And you can't Fire a owner... He can be forced to sell if he's caught being racist, sexist, homophobic or something crazy. Everyone wants him gone, but you can't force an owner to sell because they aren't winning. That's not how it works. It's a dead argument...
Now proceed to get the fuck outta here with this bullshit... tank yer
Dolan is the Chairman, as it is a corporation and it has a board not owner. If season ticket sales were drastically hurt, the board would make a move. Problem is, Knicks season ticket holders are mostly held by non Knick fan corporate entities looking to get their faces on page six of the Post. Kinda like you looking to be noticed on fan forums by shouting shit that you think is loud but makes no sense and has no point.
Phil on the other hand will be gone in 2019 and should be let go asap. Replaced by a young GM who we know will be here for next 10 years. Dolan suckered all the simple minded fans by hiring another starphuck name to sell tickets with. Phil has done nothing special and has made us more of a joke. But your a smart guy. Does it make sense having a guy pushing a system, to our rebuilding yoots, that no one else plays, is antiquated and will probably have to be replaced in a couple of years? But I know, everyone who gets hiss head stuck up his ass amd sees KP up there, thinks it will be ok.
Dolan to KP in 2019. "Hey KP just want to thank you for your great play the last few years. Sorry we have had horrible seasons. I know your probably starting to think about your future in the NBA. Think NY will be a good place to continue your career. BTW, you will need to forget everything you have learned up until now as we are no longer running the Triangle, Also, all the draft picks are not working out, as we thought they would, and I know free agents think this is the worst place to come to but we want to know how you feel about continuing our tanking tradition for the next 5 years?."
KP to Dolan: "EJ DIRST!!!"
And I have said it many times to you before. "You get the fuck out of here!"
So after that rant... I'm wondering why you are still here.
Tell me how it's better to fire everyone and then what? Trade all the youth to starphuch like we been doing all these years?
Listen, you need to leave the premises before I call security.
EnySpree wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:EnySpree wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:EnySpree wrote:Seriously get the fuck outta here with this threadYou get the fuck outta here. With your snag ass, no comment, simple agenda brain, no point making, toy dog barking ass!!
Your the moron responding, with zero point, to a thread you think has no point. Genius!!
That's exactly how I would respond if this was my thread....
Fire Phil in the middle of a rebuild is the wrong move. He needs to ride out his contract and then then they need to transition someone.
And you can't Fire a owner... He can be forced to sell if he's caught being racist, sexist, homophobic or something crazy. Everyone wants him gone, but you can't force an owner to sell because they aren't winning. That's not how it works. It's a dead argument...
Now proceed to get the fuck outta here with this bullshit... tank yer
Dolan is the Chairman, as it is a corporation and it has a board not owner. If season ticket sales were drastically hurt, the board would make a move. Problem is, Knicks season ticket holders are mostly held by non Knick fan corporate entities looking to get their faces on page six of the Post. Kinda like you looking to be noticed on fan forums by shouting shit that you think is loud but makes no sense and has no point.
Phil on the other hand will be gone in 2019 and should be let go asap. Replaced by a young GM who we know will be here for next 10 years. Dolan suckered all the simple minded fans by hiring another starphuck name to sell tickets with. Phil has done nothing special and has made us more of a joke. But your a smart guy. Does it make sense having a guy pushing a system, to our rebuilding yoots, that no one else plays, is antiquated and will probably have to be replaced in a couple of years? But I know, everyone who gets hiss head stuck up his ass amd sees KP up there, thinks it will be ok.
Dolan to KP in 2019. "Hey KP just want to thank you for your great play the last few years. Sorry we have had horrible seasons. I know your probably starting to think about your future in the NBA. Think NY will be a good place to continue your career. BTW, you will need to forget everything you have learned up until now as we are no longer running the Triangle, Also, all the draft picks are not working out, as we thought they would, and I know free agents think this is the worst place to come to but we want to know how you feel about continuing our tanking tradition for the next 5 years?."
KP to Dolan: "EJ DIRST!!!"
And I have said it many times to you before. "You get the fuck out of here!"
So after that rant... I'm wondering why you are still here.
Tell me how it's better to fire everyone and then what? Trade all the youth to starphuch like we been doing all these years?
Listen, you need to leave the premises before I call security.
LOL. Is this Dolan? Cuz only fat little cowards that don't know anything about basketball say stuff like that. Thought I told you to stay out with your little dog barking. But I do see you used all you cerebral strength to make a point on the topic. Fair enough....
That's right, I said get rid of all the yoots. No. Not like Phil has. (Grant, THJ, Early, Thanasis,)
I would continue to take advantage of Phils bad roster moves and make my high draft pick. Would then hold them for more than a couple of years. If they did not work out after a few years, i would not trade them for scraps. I would never sign guys that were crippled to the roster(Noah/Rose). And i would bring in a sense of a true proffesional sports franchise during my tenure. That and not throwing your players and coaches under the bus, like a Kardashian, on the internet.
Its a perfect time to fire Phil as he has only 2 years left before his permanent retirement. (Opposed to his last 3 of temporary). Easy to hire a young guy that is made to commit to the young movement and will not be in a senior citizen facility within a couple of years. One that will also let his scouts make the draft picks. (Do hope we have hired a new NCAA scout though. Gaines has Spain covered.) One that will not push his 20 year old system. One that will let his coach actually coach. But Dolan and so many just cant let go of the Phil fantasy bail put to see that.
fwk00 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:Let's sign a petition that the Phil haters stick their petition up their hoophole.Since Phil has been here, Dolan has taken a quiet back seat. THAT alone is reason enough to keep Phil in place if we tank for the next three years.
Secondly, before they off with their "fire Phil" advocacies, how about creating the alternative narrative to Phil. Who does Dolan trust enough to run the show for him? Name some names. And given those candidates, who you plan on bringing in who would make the same difference that Phil makes.
And by this I mean, who can stand up to both Dolan and the rabid-dog fan contingent so that we aren't back to trading our draft picks into the next century for instant gratification trades. Need an example? My guess is that there are still delusional fans out there who believe Melo can win it all with just a few more complementary playahs.
Phil haters don't need a petition, they need medication.
Having said all that. Phil hasn't been perfect but why demand we hold anyone accountable for not being perfect? Crazy.So you didn't like this trade or that signing? Give me an example of another team in our relative condition 3 years ago who got it all right. Okay, let's make it easier - put Melo on any of those teams and give us a credible narrative of how that team would have won something.
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. For the short term, Phil is more than good enough.
Never had anything up mine. Think guys that say stuff like that have more experience.
For a guy that writes so much, you read very little. I said several times it is not about one move or being perfect. It is about several bad decisions made, long term direction and plan for Knicks. As well as adding to the negative perception he has created with several questionable statements. And yes, "this bad move and that bad move" is pretty important in judging a GM's success. Btw, this is a fan forum where those kind of things are usually discussed.
As for giving away draft picks, he has given away draft picks. Let's see if you can figure out which ones?Everyone who comes here that has a brain understands it takes 5-7 years to turn a team around and the chances of doing so are thin. Look at the NBA historically to see how true that is. And go back a decade, look up Larry Brown's teams to see it play out.
The conundrum is that it is easy to just squeeze into the playoffs. Cheap thrills for the fans (we're an eternal year away from better than mediocre). Teams that do that enter a perpetual purgatory of mediocrity. They get lousy draft picks and don't get the pick of the litter FAs. Each year the contract constraints cements that even more.
NY is in the eye of this storm. What makes keeping Phil compelling is that he has tried to walk the tightrope of both making the playoffs but not getting trapped in the cycle of mediocrity that squeaking in can trigger. Phil has had no problem cutting bait on seasons that were going in that direction (e.g. tanking). There is both a logic and payoff to that strategy.
Now fans such as yourself look at the record and assume its representative of abject failure instead of seeing the strategy. Phil and co are smart enough to recognize that the lottery is a crap shoot and it is the art of recognizing talent and not necessarily lottery position is what's important.
This is the only way left to build up a winner.
So let's go back to that idea of a reasonable timeframe to build out a winner - 5-7 years. When we get to that point you can argue accountability is an issue. But to argue halfway into a long process that the process is not working because we're not there yet sounds like a child who will wet their pants if they don't get their way.
Losing is an unfortunate cost of improving. Yes, it absolutely sucks. But its a methodology and not a reflection on the architects.
Lets contrast the Knicks with the Clippers. Do the Clips suck because of Ballmer? Doc Rivers? A loaded roster? They are in the cycle of mediocrity. Aging. No draft picks. And so on. Are Dolan/Phil/et al *THAT* awful in comparison? You see its not about the individuals its about individuals trying to beat a system intended to keep 20+ teams down.
Lastly, Phil has taken out the garbage. Period. Call them bad trades but we have three undrafted rookies taking the place of those ever so valuable deep bench players you cherish so much who we should have gotten so much more for. The Hardaways and Grants of the NBA world are a dime a dozen. Some will get it together, some won't. Which was going to turn our season into playoff gold?We have popular players now who will soon be gone if the assets we need are at stake. Its just the way this stuff works. Nothing more.
Fair question...Does it make sense to you that you are saying to judge Phil not on what he has done and what direction the franchise is heading but rather on what will happen in 7 years? I agree that it takes several years to turn things around. But thats only if the ones heading the rebuild are making good decisions each and every year. But no one has a crystal ball. The only thing that can give us any clue of what may happen, is someones current performance and how many goals he has met. I have listed my reasons why I have no confidence in the direction. Maybe its because I have seen it before. You can keep thinking someone is trying "to right the ship" . But we have seen that decade after decade of falling short, we have just not had the right people steering. Think Dolan is not someone to trust. And Phil, may have been, 20 years ago. But at least Dolan took a big step by finally taking a back seat. I'm hoping he now picks a younger driver with less of an ego who gives his coach the same freedom to do his job.
Nalod wrote:Just remember, when you sign the Fire Phil petition, Mills is the GM.
Wasn't Mills the one who hired Glen Grunwald?
knicks1248 wrote:Nalod wrote:Just remember, when you sign the Fire Phil petition, Mills is the GM.Wasn't Mills the one who hired Glen Grunwald?
The president of Basketball operations in 2006 was Isiah Thomas. Walsh kept him on.
But that won't happen because Steve Mills will still be the GM, or promoted to President of basketball operations and many will still stay in place.
Thats what some of you don't get. You want to rip it all apart and start fresh. That won't happen.
Teams that succeed have continued culture. They evolve form within. 3 years is not nearly enough to call this a failure.
Nalod wrote:I phil were to be let go, then this mystical new guy would want his own coach's and scouts.
But that won't happen because Steve Mills will still be the GM, or promoted to President of basketball operations and many will still stay in place.Thats what some of you don't get. You want to rip it all apart and start fresh. That won't happen.
Teams that succeed have continued culture. They evolve form within. 3 years is not nearly enough to call this a failure.
Im sure If mills was the president and phil was the gm, phil would be fired.
JH would not be let go because everyone on the face of this earth who watches the Knicks, knows that he is not getting a Fair chance to do his own thing.
We have lost 50 games in each of the last 3 seasons, don't tell me 3 seasons is not enough to confirm what you should know by now. That hasn't been done by any president in franchise history...Like 70 years, that's like 4 generations. What more do you need to see.