Knicks · Sign the "Fire Phil and Dolan" petition. (page 4)
Nalod wrote:I phil were to be let go, then this mystical new guy would want his own coach's and scouts.
But that won't happen because Steve Mills will still be the GM, or promoted to President of basketball operations and many will still stay in place.Thats what some of you don't get. You want to rip it all apart and start fresh. That won't happen.
Teams that succeed have continued culture. They evolve form within. 3 years is not nearly enough to call this a failure.
Im sure If mills was the president and phil was the gm, phil would be fired.
JH would not be let go because everyone on the face of this earth who watches the Knicks, knows that he is not getting a Fair chance to do his own thing.
We have lost 50 games in each of the last 3 seasons, don't tell me 3 seasons is not enough to confirm what you should know by now. That hasn't been done by any president in franchise history...Like 70 years, that's like 4 generations. What more do you need to see.
knicks1248 wrote:Nalod wrote:I phil were to be let go, then this mystical new guy would want his own coach's and scouts.
But that won't happen because Steve Mills will still be the GM, or promoted to President of basketball operations and many will still stay in place.Thats what some of you don't get. You want to rip it all apart and start fresh. That won't happen.
Teams that succeed have continued culture. They evolve form within. 3 years is not nearly enough to call this a failure.Im sure If mills was the president and phil was the gm, phil would be fired.
JH would not be let go because everyone on the face of this earth who watches the Knicks, knows that he is not getting a Fair chance to do his own thing.
We have lost 50 games in each of the last 3 seasons, don't tell me 3 seasons is not enough to confirm what you should know by now. That hasn't been done by any president in franchise history...Like 70 years, that's like 4 generations. What more do you need to see.
Mills was hired to run the team. Mills was part of the new regime that was instigated when Dolan hired McKinesey. I suggest you do a little reading on this.
Dolan and Knicks are not trading picks anymore. Not until the team is contending I would guess. Mills as hired to run the kNicks. When Phil was wooed by money, ego, what ever seduction you wish to imply, Mills became the GM to report to Phil. Dolan had grabbed Mills before he was about to be hired by the NBA league office. Mills has a very good reputation around the league.
Your assumption is that Phil kind of ruined a good thing, and/or he purged the roster because he wants his Triangle and is not aware the league has moved on from the triangle.
Its also assumed "Well, phil had HOF talent and its why he won". Jordan was 27, a great scoring wing player with bad attitude and trust issues. Pippin was a young player not yet great. Phil and the triangle made them. Would they have gotten there anyway? For your argument Im sure you'd say so. Two sets of therapist with basically two different rosters except Pip and Jordan. 72 win season? Yes, great coach's need great players, and great players usually don't accomplish championships without great coaches. Phil had inherited a team that could not win the East.
Had a GM ever stayed in place after three bad seasons? Why not look it up and tell us?
My guess would be if Phil leaves, the buzz would not last long because Mills will be there to run the team. The Triangle? I don't know if that persists.
The triangle is very ambitious. I think thats a good thing to strive for.
HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:Let's sign a petition that the Phil haters stick their petition up their hoophole.Since Phil has been here, Dolan has taken a quiet back seat. THAT alone is reason enough to keep Phil in place if we tank for the next three years.
Secondly, before they off with their "fire Phil" advocacies, how about creating the alternative narrative to Phil. Who does Dolan trust enough to run the show for him? Name some names. And given those candidates, who you plan on bringing in who would make the same difference that Phil makes.
And by this I mean, who can stand up to both Dolan and the rabid-dog fan contingent so that we aren't back to trading our draft picks into the next century for instant gratification trades. Need an example? My guess is that there are still delusional fans out there who believe Melo can win it all with just a few more complementary playahs.
Phil haters don't need a petition, they need medication.
Having said all that. Phil hasn't been perfect but why demand we hold anyone accountable for not being perfect? Crazy.So you didn't like this trade or that signing? Give me an example of another team in our relative condition 3 years ago who got it all right. Okay, let's make it easier - put Melo on any of those teams and give us a credible narrative of how that team would have won something.
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. For the short term, Phil is more than good enough.
Never had anything up mine. Think guys that say stuff like that have more experience.
For a guy that writes so much, you read very little. I said several times it is not about one move or being perfect. It is about several bad decisions made, long term direction and plan for Knicks. As well as adding to the negative perception he has created with several questionable statements. And yes, "this bad move and that bad move" is pretty important in judging a GM's success. Btw, this is a fan forum where those kind of things are usually discussed.
As for giving away draft picks, he has given away draft picks. Let's see if you can figure out which ones?Everyone who comes here that has a brain understands it takes 5-7 years to turn a team around and the chances of doing so are thin. Look at the NBA historically to see how true that is. And go back a decade, look up Larry Brown's teams to see it play out.
The conundrum is that it is easy to just squeeze into the playoffs. Cheap thrills for the fans (we're an eternal year away from better than mediocre). Teams that do that enter a perpetual purgatory of mediocrity. They get lousy draft picks and don't get the pick of the litter FAs. Each year the contract constraints cements that even more.
NY is in the eye of this storm. What makes keeping Phil compelling is that he has tried to walk the tightrope of both making the playoffs but not getting trapped in the cycle of mediocrity that squeaking in can trigger. Phil has had no problem cutting bait on seasons that were going in that direction (e.g. tanking). There is both a logic and payoff to that strategy.
Now fans such as yourself look at the record and assume its representative of abject failure instead of seeing the strategy. Phil and co are smart enough to recognize that the lottery is a crap shoot and it is the art of recognizing talent and not necessarily lottery position is what's important.
This is the only way left to build up a winner.
So let's go back to that idea of a reasonable timeframe to build out a winner - 5-7 years. When we get to that point you can argue accountability is an issue. But to argue halfway into a long process that the process is not working because we're not there yet sounds like a child who will wet their pants if they don't get their way.
Losing is an unfortunate cost of improving. Yes, it absolutely sucks. But its a methodology and not a reflection on the architects.
Lets contrast the Knicks with the Clippers. Do the Clips suck because of Ballmer? Doc Rivers? A loaded roster? They are in the cycle of mediocrity. Aging. No draft picks. And so on. Are Dolan/Phil/et al *THAT* awful in comparison? You see its not about the individuals its about individuals trying to beat a system intended to keep 20+ teams down.
Lastly, Phil has taken out the garbage. Period. Call them bad trades but we have three undrafted rookies taking the place of those ever so valuable deep bench players you cherish so much who we should have gotten so much more for. The Hardaways and Grants of the NBA world are a dime a dozen. Some will get it together, some won't. Which was going to turn our season into playoff gold?We have popular players now who will soon be gone if the assets we need are at stake. Its just the way this stuff works. Nothing more.
Fair question...Does it make sense to you that you are saying to judge Phil not on what he has done and what direction the franchise is heading but rather on what will happen in 7 years? I agree that it takes several years to turn things around. But thats only if the ones heading the rebuild are making good decisions each and every year. But no one has a crystal ball. The only thing that can give us any clue of what may happen, is someones current performance and how many goals he has met. I have listed my reasons why I have no confidence in the direction. Maybe its because I have seen it before. You can keep thinking someone is trying "to right the ship" . But we have seen that decade after decade of falling short, we have just not had the right people steering. Think Dolan is not someone to trust. And Phil, may have been, 20 years ago. But at least Dolan took a big step by finally taking a back seat. I'm hoping he now picks a younger driver with less of an ego who gives his coach the same freedom to do his job.
You need to separate the direction the team is going [younger, smarter, more skilled] from the record [another failed Melo campaign - unfortunate but obligatory given the rhetoric around resigning Melo].
I think everyone who is fair minded sees the direction of the team as being spot on [not utopian but reasonably positive].
The team record Melo owns. If he wanted to win then he should have sat Rose and Jennings down and said, "I'm buying into the system, you damned well better too or I'm going to make noise]. Instead he mounted a stealth, "Fire Phil" campaign with his band of knuckleheads.
Secondly, good business practice is not about absolute meeting of goals [say, wins]. These days its about milestones that help management correct course rather than blame people. A milestone that has not been reached is solving the PG position - Rose was not the answer. A milestone that has been surpassed is the development of Hernangomez at the center position and the richness of depth there. Plumlee or O'Quinn could be moved during the draft or later for a prospect or a positional need.
Another milestone exceeded is player development. The kids got run and showed up.
Fiscally, there is no damage to next year's FA money. Noah was and is a sunk asset. Moving Melo will be a milestone based on this year's chemistry problems.
You can see positive feedback loops throughout this year's season - many, unfortunately, uncovered by the losing and Melo's indifference to team synergy.
Nor can you claim that success is measured "only if the ones heading the rebuild are making good decisions each and every year". This is nonsense that almost reads as satire. Progress is always a combination of successes and failures
that move you to a better place. And that better place is not always what you believed it to be when you started.
When Phil started he expected a Melo-led winning basketball team. These days he looks to KP and company.
Phil's age or anyone else's has NOTHING to do with anything. The man is a basketball genius YOU don't understand and so your excuse is that he's old and you're not short-sighted.