Knicks · How do Willy, Baker...etc. stack up in 2016 Draft? (disregard other thread!) (page 2)

Uptown wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Would most undrafted players (N'Dour) earn a double/double in their first start? Seems a bit harsh.
N'Dour has been getting very inconsistent minutes all season, all while the offense was trying to sort itself out. His first real chance to show what he can do and N'Dour delivers. That's someone worth drafting IMO.

The truth about the young Knicks performance may hurt some members feelings ....

The Knicks had 7 raw rookies in 2016-17 season ..
KP performance had huge regress from last season.
Ndour received his first full-season in the NBA receiving 10 minute per in 30 games.
Randle got the Knicks famous run around from injury to D.League to receiving 10 minute per in 17 games.
Plumlee receive 7 minute per of garbage time in just 20 games for the season.
Baker doesnt belong in the NBA until he put in a year in the D.league

Willy .. top 7
KP .. top 10
N'Dour .. top 20
Plumlee .. early 2nd round
Kuz .. early 2nd round
Randle .. late 2nd round
Baker .. late 2nd round

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

I don't even see Baker as a middle of the 2nd round player as debatable given what we saw from the 2016 draft. You're judging things by what came out of this draft...not some independent evaluations system.

This is about opportunity costs, and whether a player like Baker might have been preferable to a player picked in the second round.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

N'Dour is a glue guy. KP should get his chance to be a go to scorer, and show he can lead the team. Thats what we're waiting on. Willy has shown he can drop buckets as well.

Kp is not a leader and never will be, that's not his personality. Just like people thought one day melo would be that leader just because he's a good offensive player. You can see leadership qualities a mile away, and I never(since Syracuse) ever considered melo with those qualities.

If you don't have the ability or personality to demand your teammates to get it right, then that leading by example doesn't go a long way.

Phil Jackon wants system basketball which involves continuity, flipping your roster every season is counter productive, like water and oil.

I can call it on any of our young players because they are ridiculously inconsistent, good one day, and horrible the next, which is why we could not win back games since xmas.

As far as I'm concerned other than KP and Melo the rest of the players are a dime a dozen and could be replace quicker than a hooker on a Vegas strip, not one of them has impress me to say this least.

I'm not all that impress with willy because he reminds me too much of David Lee(who I was big on)when he was a knick. That little floater he's been using lately is not what I want form a big man(avoiding contact like Rose)I would rather post ups and drop steps.

Leadership is a strange thing...I was a coach in one way or another for over 25 years, and I know for a fact that people you never think of as leaders can emerge. A kid my assistant wanted to kick off the team as a freshman, became a team leader as a senior, an assistant coach later on, and then he replaced me.

Anthony emerged as a kind of leader last year, and even this year you can see him talking to younger players on the team about what they are doing. KP is young and has accepted Melo as the team leader. I think he also deffered to Rose.
Will he become a leader? I don't know, but to dismiss him this early seems a bit foolish at this point.

As someone pointed out, you can see KP directing things at times...I have also seen Baker trying to position players on offense at times because he seems to know the Triangle so well.

A leader will emerge...could be KP, could be someone else. Too early to say never about a 21 year old who has yet to come into his own...Might just want to wait and watch a little longer.

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

I don't even see Baker as a middle of the 2nd round player as debatable given what we saw from the 2016 draft. You're judging things by what came out of this draft...not some independent evaluations system.

This is about opportunity costs, and whether a player like Baker might have been preferable to a player picked in the second round.

I doubt many would think this way if he wasn't a knick. I liked Baker as an udfa coming out and he is spunky but the dude has steps before I would even consider him a real rotation player.

yellowboy90 wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

I don't even see Baker as a middle of the 2nd round player as debatable given what we saw from the 2016 draft. You're judging things by what came out of this draft...not some independent evaluations system.

This is about opportunity costs, and whether a player like Baker might have been preferable to a player picked in the second round.

I doubt many would think this way if he wasn't a knick. I liked Baker as an udfa coming out and he is spunky but the dude has steps before I would even consider him a real rotation player.

That's fine but you have to at least acknowledge that he wasn't a PG and he's actually getting better and better at running the team. I see Baker making a nice jump next year. He's going to have all kinds of incentives to work on his game this summer.

The fact that Jeff believes in Baker says a LOT! From what I see Baker has a deeper understanding of his role than BJ or Rose demonstrated. He's MOST DEFINITELY a rotation player.

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Would most undrafted players (N'Dour) earn a double/double in their first start? Seems a bit harsh.
N'Dour has been getting very inconsistent minutes all season, all while the offense was trying to sort itself out. His first real chance to show what he can do and N'Dour delivers. That's someone worth drafting IMO.

Not really...Renaldo Balkman put up some impressive numbers in some select games his rookie campaign aswell...He still wasn't worthy of a 1st round pick...

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Would most undrafted players (N'Dour) earn a double/double in their first start? Seems a bit harsh.
N'Dour has been getting very inconsistent minutes all season, all while the offense was trying to sort itself out. His first real chance to show what he can do and N'Dour delivers. That's someone worth drafting IMO.

Not really...Renaldo Balkman put up some impressive numbers in some select games his rookie campaign aswell...He still wasn't worthy of a 1st round pick...

Who said anything about a first round pick? You always hated N'Dour, even as a child.....

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Would most undrafted players (N'Dour) earn a double/double in their first start? Seems a bit harsh.
N'Dour has been getting very inconsistent minutes all season, all while the offense was trying to sort itself out. His first real chance to show what he can do and N'Dour delivers. That's someone worth drafting IMO.

Not really...Renaldo Balkman put up some impressive numbers in some select games his rookie campaign aswell...He still wasn't worthy of a 1st round pick...

Who said anything about a first round pick? You always hated N'Dour, even as a child.....

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Would most undrafted players (N'Dour) earn a double/double in their first start? Seems a bit harsh.
N'Dour has been getting very inconsistent minutes all season, all while the offense was trying to sort itself out. His first real chance to show what he can do and N'Dour delivers. That's someone worth drafting IMO.

Not really...Renaldo Balkman put up some impressive numbers in some select games his rookie campaign aswell...He still wasn't worthy of a 1st round pick...

Who said anything about a first round pick? You always hated N'Dour, even as a child.....

Like a David Lynch movie, lol.

Are you guys referencing the 2016 draft before you post?

EnySpree wrote:Are you guys referencing the 2016 draft before you post?

I don't think they are...and that was the entire point of this thread...

It was a pretty weak draft, but one we had NO picks in...I was just trying to put our rookies into a proper perspective...

Kemet wrote:The truth about the young Knicks performance may hurt some members feelings ....

The Knicks had 7 raw rookies in 2016-17 season ..
KP performance had huge regress from last season.
Ndour received his first full-season in the NBA receiving 10 minute per in 30 games.
Randle got the Knicks famous run around from injury to D.League to receiving 10 minute per in 17 games.
Plumlee receive 7 minute per of garbage time in just 20 games for the season.
Baker doesnt belong in the NBA until he put in a year in the D.league

Willy .. top 7
KP .. top 10
N'Dour .. top 20
Plumlee .. early 2nd round
Kuz .. early 2nd round
Randle .. late 2nd round
Baker .. late 2nd round

In what way did KP have a huge regress from last season?

If Baker doesen't get drafted in last years draft, then how does he get drafted in this years?

WaltLongmire wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Are you guys referencing the 2016 draft before you post?

I don't think they are...and that was the entire point of this thread...

It was a pretty weak draft, but one we had NO picks in...I was just trying to put our rookies into a proper perspective...

i have mixed feelings on the draft. i think it was sold as a weaker draft than it actually was.

Having said that, ndour and baker for sure are playing better and show more than many drafted players who i think may never play a minute in the league. Saying their talent level is UDFA (after seeming them play) is simply and demonstrably wrong. We found value in these guys and that's exactly how you build a team, piece by piece

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

+1. Willy might be more like top 12 IMO but I agree overall.

Chandler wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Are you guys referencing the 2016 draft before you post?

I don't think they are...and that was the entire point of this thread...

It was a pretty weak draft, but one we had NO picks in...I was just trying to put our rookies into a proper perspective...

i have mixed feelings on the draft. i think it was sold as a weaker draft than it actually was.

Having said that, ndour and baker for sure are playing better and show more than many drafted players who i think may never play a minute in the league. Saying their talent level is UDFA (after seeming them play) is simply and demonstrably wrong. We found value in these guys and that's exactly how you build a team, piece by piece

Ironically...the KP draft was sold as a very strong draft, and yet you can make a case, based on the second year, that it was a just slightly above average at best, though I think you need to wait 3-4 years before making a final decision.

Last year to this year - both are done for all practical purposes. Yet our future has improved considerably.
Willy & KP may be a tandem for years. If Melo is gone you're right we won't have a go to scorer but anyone that
Can shoot better than 40%!in the 4th and play D will be an improvement. Obviously either Jackson or Jayson would fill that void but I feel a court lease is mandatory. Someone who runs the show can impact pace, steal the ball, penetrate and score as required. That's Fox. So what I see is fox KP and Wily, Kuz and OQuinn, Holiday (if he stays)Randle and Baker, Lee and if we can secure a let first rounder via trade or otherwise, id like to see a Caleb Swanigan. Someone who can stick a jumper, board all day and play tough D.

Willy probably near the end of a top10 pick. Randle, Baker and N'Dour: late 2nd round or undrafted, Plumlee undrafted. Kuz mid 2nd round.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Chandler wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Are you guys referencing the 2016 draft before you post?

I don't think they are...and that was the entire point of this thread...

It was a pretty weak draft, but one we had NO picks in...I was just trying to put our rookies into a proper perspective...

i have mixed feelings on the draft. i think it was sold as a weaker draft than it actually was.

Having said that, ndour and baker for sure are playing better and show more than many drafted players who i think may never play a minute in the league. Saying their talent level is UDFA (after seeming them play) is simply and demonstrably wrong. We found value in these guys and that's exactly how you build a team, piece by piece

Ironically...the KP draft was sold as a very strong draft, and yet you can make a case, based on the second year, that it was a just slightly above average at best, though I think you need to wait 3-4 years before making a final decision.

I'm just happy we didn't draft okafor, Stein or Winslow... we'd be screwed