Knicks · How do Willy, Baker...etc. stack up in 2016 Draft? (disregard other thread!) (page 1)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/draf...

Some thoughts...Based on what we saw this year, how would our rookies have slotted into the 2016 draft? I think that based on what we saw, our guys did pretty well in a redraft.

And yes...I do know that some later picks are draft and stash players...I'm more interested in rookies who have competed in the NBA this year. And I know that Willy was officially in 2015.

Willy Hernangomez: Toronto took Poeltl with the 9th pick that they had gotten from us...Do you think he's a better looking player than Willy is at this time?...And remember Poeltl was an "older" rookie too- only 1.5 yrs older than Willy.
As the season ends, I think you can make a case that Willy has played like a lottery pick from the 2016 draft, and it looks like he has room...and the ability/desire...to improve his game.

Ron Baker Yes...his age has to be a consideration, but if he had been on a team without two established guards ahead of him for most of the season, I expect his stats would be much better, and I don't see why he could not have been a Brogdan-type player for this team, though his shot must become more consistent...something we all talkd about.
I think you can make a case that he would be a legitimate choice as an early to mid #2 if redrafting 2016 (maybe even pick 30/31 if the right team , and if he was 2 years younger you could have seen him picked up at the end of the first round.

Plumlee Another player where age is an issue to consider...but he could have been a late (50+))#2 based on what I have seen. If we had been in a rebuild and just played Willy and Plumlee from day one, we might have seen more from him. At the very least he is the kind of banger any team can use in certain situations.

Ndour Another older rookie...I considered him a very late #2 when we picked him up last year...pretty much the same for 2016, but he does turn 25 in June. If he ever gets consistency and confidence on his midrange jumper he can be a very solid role player. Looks like he can compete physically, despite a thin frame, and he seems to be as disruptive as any defender we have on the team.

RandleI have not seen enough to make a good judgment on Randle. I don't think he is as good of a ball handler as some of you seem to think he is. Might be a confidence issue, which always go hand in hand with limited playing time...just don't know. I would hope he's brought back for next year...would like to see if he can improve.
In the eyes of the Kicks brass, though, I expect the Baker vs Randle issue is probably settled.

Great thread

IMO

Willy - Top 10 for sure
Baker - 40s (2nd round)
Kuz - 40s (2nd round)
NDour - 50s (2nd round)

Randle, Plumlee undrafted again

we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

you make it seem like we have had all those things....we havent in years. At least now we are rebuilding the right way i know you dont believe in that but its simply time to try it this time

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

N'Dour is a glue guy. KP should get his chance to be a go to scorer, and show he can lead the team. Thats what we're waiting on. Willy has shown he can drop buckets as well.

Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

I actually like Willy in the top 15 easy. Baker and Randle are mid 2nd rounders IMO. Gotta remember that Baker is learning a new position and Randle came on board late. I see both improving quite a bit if they are rotation players coming into the season. I know both will score better and perform more consistently with work this summer and more of a role next year. Neither player is going to be a star and hopefully we can bring in a more talented PG but they can play well enough to fill out the rotation.

Willy definitely goes lottery, maybe top 10. Baker definitely gets drafted in the 2nd round. Everyone else probably goes undrafted.

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

Same record, but Willie has more potential then Lopez does. Baker has more potential then Calderon did as a Knick last season. And we will be adding a lottery level talent next season which we werent able to do this season despite the same record. If Me lo is gone then we will probably be adding a piece that will be apart of the team 3 years from now.

willy I think about 15th in the first round would be about right. I'd say given his limited playing time last year even at that spot he would still be a pleasant surprise!
Baker if younger would be late first round to mid second. What is very nice about him is he can feel the game at this level, makes a lot of good decisions, lack of turn overs and plays defense.
He gets a good shot this guy can be a 15 and 8 player, and thats money in this league!
Randle has the offensive game but not sure he "feels the game" like Baker does. He is a scorer but not strong finisher. He can shoot, and has a good handle to create space.
War PlumLord, I'd say strong fundamentals, very strong, hard hands and not much feel for offensive game. Sets a mean screen. Might be a keeper. If he can get a mid range jumper he can pull a rim defender out and create space. Seems to have a great attitude and good defense talker.
N'dour. Gaines likes him. Not sure we need him and Holiday

If your not a top 45th player taken, to me your not drafted. Amazing how a guy like Baker when given a chance can develop. So many players in the NBA are that good if not better than him. Imagine if Jimmer had everything Baker has, he'd be awesome!!! Baker needs Jimmers shot!!

WaltLongmire wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/draf...

Some thoughts...Based on what we saw this year, how would our rookies have slotted into the 2016 draft? I think that based on what we saw, our guys did pretty well in a redraft.

And yes...I do know that some later picks are draft and stash players...I'm more interested in rookies who have competed in the NBA this year. And I know that Willy was officially in 2015.

Willy Hernangomez: Toronto took Poeltl with the 9th pick that they had gotten from us...Do you think he's a better looking player than Willy is at this time?...And remember Poeltl was an "older" rookie too- only 1.5 yrs older than Willy.
As the season ends, I think you can make a case that Willy has played like a lottery pick from the 2016 draft, and it looks like he has room...and the ability/desire...to improve his game.

Ron Baker Yes...his age has to be a consideration, but if he had been on a team without two established guards ahead of him for most of the season, I expect his stats would be much better, and I don't see why he could not have been a Brogdan-type player for this team, though his shot must become more consistent...something we all talkd about.
I think you can make a case that he would be a legitimate choice as an early to mid #2 if redrafting 2016 (maybe even pick 30/31 if the right team , and if he was 2 years younger you could have seen him picked up at the end of the first round.

Plumlee Another player where age is an issue to consider...but he could have been a late (50+))#2 based on what I have seen. If we had been in a rebuild and just played Willy and Plumlee from day one, we might have seen more from him. At the very least he is the kind of banger any team can use in certain situations.

Ndour Another older rookie...I considered him a very late #2 when we picked him up last year...pretty much the same for 2016, but he does turn 25 in June. If he ever gets consistency and confidence on his midrange jumper he can be a very solid role player. Looks like he can compete physically, despite a thin frame, and he seems to be as disruptive as any defender we have on the team.

RandleI have not seen enough to make a good judgment on Randle. I don't think he is as good of a ball handler as some of you seem to think he is. Might be a confidence issue, which always go hand in hand with limited playing time...just don't know. I would hope he's brought back for next year...would like to see if he can improve.
In the eyes of the Kicks brass, though, I expect the Baker vs Randle issue is probably settled.

its a good thread. Some have taken to using Phil for a whipping post in every thread but I think when you look at the list above you can see he's working multiple angles and build with a talent pool we never invested in in the past. I like the type of guys we are looking at. While guys like Thanasis and Early didnt pan out we work on guys and seem to invest here. I like it. I see growth.

Willy: easy lottery pick. Range 5-8. 21 year old. Very strong body, great on the glass, quickness to make plays on defense, can finish through contact, a willing passer and very advanced footwork in the post and P&R comparable to Okfor showed in college. Finished #5 on the NBA rookie ladder. Puts up 8ppg and 7rebs in just 18 mins/game. Obviously needs some reps on defense but now is the time to take lumps and learn what his big weaknesses are.

Baker: Late 1, early 2. Range: 26-40. One of those late uninspiring picks by a team that won 50+ games and without pomp and circumstance draft a player who is a useful rotation guy in the NBA. Not sure if Baker is there yet but he's shown enough to get a good chance in this league and earn this draft bump.

Rest: UDFAs as they should be, but some of those pop as well. I like that many look like good system type guys. Ball movers who will bring it on defense and play a role. Hopefully as the top of the roster materializes some of these types stick and help us. Im glad Phil is looking at this talent pool, but its a low yield prospect. Still it shows we are looking.

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

Perhaps you meant this for a different thread. Waaaayyyy off topic man

Phil was relatively aggressive in looking to find UDFA's that fit his ideals. Willy was a very smart move cuz he's the kind of player that the Spurs usually find. The good news is these guys have at least shown something that says they should be in strong consideration to bring back until we find someone clearly better. That's about all you can ask for in this process. Keep trying to have worthy prospects in the pipeline. Especially since Phil didn't have all his picks the last 3 years.

Knixkik wrote:Willy definitely goes lottery, maybe top 10. Baker definitely gets drafted in the 2nd round. Everyone else probably goes undrafted.

I agree. Baker was supposed to be drafted in the 30's if he came out after his junior year. They both should make an all rookie team.

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

N'Dour is a glue guy. KP should get his chance to be a go to scorer, and show he can lead the team. Thats what we're waiting on. Willy has shown he can drop buckets as well.

Kp is not a leader and never will be, that's not his personality. Just like people thought one day melo would be that leader just because he's a good offensive player. You can see leadership qualities a mile away, and I never(since Syracuse) ever considered melo with those qualities.

If you don't have the ability or personality to demand your teammates to get it right, then that leading by example doesn't go a long way.

Phil Jackon wants system basketball which involves continuity, flipping your roster every season is counter productive, like water and oil.

I can call it on any of our young players because they are ridiculously inconsistent, good one day, and horrible the next, which is why we could not win back games since xmas.

As far as I'm concerned other than KP and Melo the rest of the players are a dime a dozen and could be replace quicker than a hooker on a Vegas strip, not one of them has impress me to say this least.

I'm not all that impress with willy because he reminds me too much of David Lee(who I was big on)when he was a knick. That little floater he's been using lately is not what I want form a big man(avoiding contact like Rose)I would rather post ups and drop steps.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

Perhaps you meant this for a different thread. Waaaayyyy off topic man

A little bit

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

N'Dour is a glue guy. KP should get his chance to be a go to scorer, and show he can lead the team. Thats what we're waiting on. Willy has shown he can drop buckets as well.

Kp is not a leader and never will be, that's not his personality. Just like people thought one day melo would be that leader just because he's a good offensive player. You can see leadership qualities a mile away, and I never(since Syracuse) ever considered melo with those qualities.

If you don't have the ability or personality to demand your teammates to get it right, then that leading by example doesn't go a long way.

Phil Jackon wants system basketball which involves continuity, flipping your roster every season is counter productive, like water and oil.

I can call it on any of our young players because they are ridiculously inconsistent, good one day, and horrible the next, which is why we could not win back games since xmas.

As far as I'm concerned other than KP and Melo the rest of the players are a dime a dozen and could be replace quicker than a hooker on a Vegas strip, not one of them has impress me to say this least.

I'm not all that impress with willy because he reminds me too much of David Lee(who I was big on)when he was a knick. That little floater he's been using lately is not what I want form a big man(avoiding contact like Rose)I would rather post ups and drop steps.

Ive seen KP barking out orders to teammates, leading in talk and example at times this season. He's been on a squad with a former scoring champion, defensive player of the year, and an MVP. All multiple All-Stars. No one was expecting Porzingis in his second season to tell all of them, (including the coach) "this is my team, get the F out of the way". KP had to be respectful of the vets. Even if they didn't act like they deserved it at times.

Another reason KP didn't have the leap that some fans expected is because he had to defer to players who for the most part were looking for their own shot. Noticed it from preseason. Melo, Rose gone, will hopefully change that.

You seem to looking for any confirmation of your less than favorable view of Porzingis. All these records he set wasn't enough, the monster games he has had at times wasn't enough. Expecting a fully formed player 2 years out of Europe, is setting the bar ridiculously high.

I believe I was the first person on this board to compare Willy to David Lee. Again, first season in the NBA. Unlike Lee, Hernangomez has been very upfront about his need to improve his D. Lee was just about padding his stats. I dont get that vibe with Willy.

You need good role players on any team, N'Dour and Baker have shown that ability at times. With all these players its about consistency. That takes time. Feels like you wont be happy until every player is an all star.

KP literally said he wants to take on more leadership next season! He spoke out early this year about the team not really playing well despite the winning record. This is our 21 yr old talking like this. We have to allow these younger players a chance to grow and mature.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we are in the lottery and finishing with basically the same record as last season, which means this roster was just as bad as the last roster, only thing that changed was the faces.

I really don't think anything will be different regardless to who's on this roster next season, and im not being pessimistic, I'm just going off what I have experience so far under this regime..

Things we don't have that's so essential

1)No leader
2)no 6th man avg double digits
3)If melo is gone, no go to scorer
4)other than melo, no one draws double teams, kp is a face up scorer, cant double him at all
5)No glue guy

N'Dour is a glue guy. KP should get his chance to be a go to scorer, and show he can lead the team. Thats what we're waiting on. Willy has shown he can drop buckets as well.

Kp is not a leader and never will be, that's not his personality. Just like people thought one day melo would be that leader just because he's a good offensive player. You can see leadership qualities a mile away, and I never(since Syracuse) ever considered melo with those qualities.

If you don't have the ability or personality to demand your teammates to get it right, then that leading by example doesn't go a long way.

Phil Jackon wants system basketball which involves continuity, flipping your roster every season is counter productive, like water and oil.

I can call it on any of our young players because they are ridiculously inconsistent, good one day, and horrible the next, which is why we could not win back games since xmas.

As far as I'm concerned other than KP and Melo the rest of the players are a dime a dozen and could be replace quicker than a hooker on a Vegas strip, not one of them has impress me to say this least.

I'm not all that impress with willy because he reminds me too much of David Lee(who I was big on)when he was a knick. That little floater he's been using lately is not what I want form a big man(avoiding contact like Rose)I would rather post ups and drop steps.

These are precisely the reason to get rid of Melo. If KP demands this and that out of teammates wouldn't that be stepping in Melo's shoes. He can't demand this and that out of veterans. But if Melo is gone it becomes KP's team and there is no room left for doubts.

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Uptown wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Willy top 8 and everyone else undrafted.

Pretty much...Baker could sneak into the late second round.

Would most undrafted players (N'Dour) earn a double/double in their first start? Seems a bit harsh.
N'Dour has been getting very inconsistent minutes all season, all while the offense was trying to sort itself out. His first real chance to show what he can do and N'Dour delivers. That's someone worth drafting IMO.