Knicks · Rosen reviews Knicks season (page 1)
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At last, the New York Knicks’ third consecutive dismal season is over.How do we account for New York’s lack of success, despite having a probable future Hall of Famer (Carmelo Anthony), a one-time MVP (Derrick Rose), and a unicorn (Kristaps Porzingis)?
Not forgetting Joakim Noah, who has been the NBA’s most outstanding defender and also a past member of an All-NBA team (both in 2014).Plus Courtney Lee, one of the league’s most highly regarded complementary players. And Brandon Jennings, who was touted as being a contender for Sixth Man of the Year.
Here are the whys and wherefores.
— Let’s start with Carmelo Anthony.
It’s no secret that he’s always been a sticky-handed, shoot-first player who plays minimal defense.
Why then did Phil Jackson sign him to a lengthy, expensive and, most importantly, no-trade clause contract?
Because the triangle requires a go-to scorer who can create his own makeable shots when the offense is stymied and the shot clock is about to expire. While Anthony is not at the level of Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, he certainly fills the bill here.
It was also expected that Melo’s scoring could take the pressure off some of the young players whom Jackson had hoped to obtain and develop.
And granting Anthony that no-trade clause was the only way to get him to return to his home town.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.
In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
However, primarily because of his reluctance to triangularize his game, Melo simply became a ball-stopping, motion-freezing individual whose selfishness severely curtailed the development of the Knicks’ younger players.
Even so, the star-crazed Knick fans still cheered his every move.
— Trading for Derrick Rose on an expiring contract was a modest gamble. Perhaps he could stay healthy, return to his MVP form, and be the dynamic point guard who could invigorate the offense — any offense. And also add to the star-quality of the roster.
New York Knicks' Derrick Rose during the first half of an NBA basketball game against the Milwaukee Bucks Wednesday, March 8, 2017, in Milwaukee. (AP Photo/Aaron Gash)
AP Photo/Aaron GashOn the plus side, Rose was still able to attack the basket with speed, quickness, and a remarkable ability to score a variety of tricky layups.
Unfortunately, his jumper remained inadequate, he passed only under duress, and he routinely made costly mistakes on defense. His turbulent season ended with another knee surgery.
Expect Anthony and Rose to be playing elsewhere next season.
— Kristaps Porzingis was poised to have an All-Star season until he injured his Achilles on Christmas Day. For the rest of the season, KP was noticeably inconsistent and generally lacked the game-changing brilliance he had previously exhibited.
It should also be noted that from January 2016 to February 2017, Porzingis also suffered injuries to his groin, a shoulder, a foot, a leg, and an ankle.
Similarly super-sized NBA players have established a tradition of periodic injuries that have severely curtailed their effectiveness and often ended their careers. Think of Yao Ming, Ralph Sampson, Bill Walton, Sam Bowie, Greg Oden, Jonathan Bender, etc.
— Even though it was widely known that Joakim Noah’s body was breaking down and that he had lost a step laterally, he was still highly regarded as being a plus-plus presence in the locker room, and a hustling and still effective low-post- and team-defender.
Also, Noah could serve as a tutor to Porzingis and rookie Willy Hernangomez.
Moreover, Noah’s excellent passing ability made him the perfect center in the triangle. And if Noah was not a real threat to score in the pivot, neither was Luc Longley.
So, while Noah’s long-term contract was somewhat risky, the possible rewards were great.
Yet a variety of illnesses and injuries prevented Noah from getting into tip-top game shape and made some of his playing time downright embarrassing. He underwent a knee surgery that effectively ended his season, then was busted for violating the NBA’s drug policy, and now it appears he needs shoulder surgery.
— Courtney Lee lived up to his billing, but Brandon Jennings certainly did not. Jennings’ defense was always questionable, as was his jump shot, but his biggest failure was his insistence on engaging in screen/rolls situations to the detriment of any other possible offensive scheme. Jennings was released and wound up in the nation’s capital.
— Head coach Jeff Hornacek must also assume some responsibility for this disastrous season. He came to the Knicks with only two and a half seasons as an NBA coach — and with a record of 101-112. While it’s true that his Phoenix Suns roster was decimated by several foolish trades engineered by the franchise’s know-nothing management, Hornacek’s leftover players always competed and tried to play the right way.
Also, coming from Phoenix — certainly not one of the bright-light, headline cities in the NBA — to New York was something of a shock to Hornacek.
New York Knicks' head coach Jeff Hornacek argues with a referee during the first half of the NBA basketball game against the Boston Celtics, Sunday, April 2, 2017, in New York. (AP Photo/Seth Wenig)
AP Photo/Seth WenigHe certainly wasn’t used to the constant attention focused on him by the habitually skeptical New York media. And perhaps Hornacek reacted by trying to be even more agreeable and friendly than he naturally is.
This reaction had to have spilled over into his relationship with his players.
Also, Hornacek was torn between employing a high-speed, quick-shooting offense that he favored but his team was unqualified to run — and the triangle. His decision to run “elements” of the triangle was doomed to failure.
— Of course, Phil Jackson must assume the lion’s share of the blame. While his decisions were made for worthy reasons, too many of them either simply backfired or were decimated by a perpetual series of injuries to key components of his squad.
However, the Knicks’ fortunes could definitely improve next season. That’s because with Lee, Hernangomez, a stronger Porzingis, a healthier Lance Thomas, a valuable backup center in Kyle O’Quinn, and the continued development of Ron Baker, Mindaugas Kuzminskas, and Maurice Ndour, plus plenty of salary cap money available and a high first-round pick, the potential grounds for the first real steps on the team’s return to glory are already in place.
But this improvement and the Knicks’ long-term outlook relies on what Phil Jackson accomplishes in the offseason.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
We definitely have to be terrified by what NY fans are. Because we are exactly that - we love stars!!!
Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
I wish I can get the same compensation for learning on the Job... but I guess I have no rings and stuff to demand it.
All-in-all pretty fair and up-to-the-point assessment.
Lets see what he will do the next 2 years and if he can learn on his own mistakes, which he was great at as a coach.
Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Its absolutely true! NY is a starphuchers paradise! NY has little patience for a rebuild.
How is this true? You see it with our attendance in every night. This team can lose year in and year out and it sells out the arena!!!
What is pathetic and sad, and deeply misguided, and should terrify everyone is that some fans don't understand that the knicks are part of MSG and the buisness is "entertainment"!!
What should lend itself to some degree of hope is the development of youth and we have our inventory of first round picks.
When was the last time that happend?
So if you want a future in a hard cap world where free agent players rarely move, its important.
crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
don't forget to double down on Rambis. That usually is soothing to you.
crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
I don't agree about the drawback or the implication that Phil doesn't care about D. Triangle is "supposed" to be a full system, not just offense. It's supposed to provide balance so players get back. It usually had big guards as the first line of defense. And historically as a coach Phil was able to get his best players (i.e., MJ, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq) to play D at an elite level, as in defensive player of the year . As a president, his two best players (i.e., Melo and Rose) were liabilities on defense. Melo and Rose -- frankly -- were simply unwilling to play consistent D (plus other little things like box out, set screens etc) and that disease spread to others.
Oddly, the Knicks had the best 4th quarter defense -- or so it was mentioned the other night by Breen. There are a lot of reasons to question that stat (e.g., other teams is burning clock to protect lead), but be that as it may, we saw spurts even quarters where they could play very good D (even if it wasn't tops as that stat suggests).
We need action, not words, about commitment to defense. Phil can take the first step on that depending how he drafts and tries to upgrade via free agency. Jeff can take the second step by benching laggards regardless of their contract. all players need to be treated equally in that regard -- held accountable
crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.
Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
don't forget to double down on Rambis. That usually is soothing to you.
Seriously? Crzy is one of the best posters on here. I don't agree with everything he says and thinks his criticisms of Phil and Rambis are too strong, but they're not unreasoned.
If you think Rambis has done a good job with this organization I'd love to hear why
Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
don't forget to double down on Rambis. That usually is soothing to you.
Wait, I don't understand - so you think Rambis has done a good job? Or wait, we shouldn't question him at all because it's all Melo? Do you have a point?
holfresh wrote:It's pretty hard to take a guy seriously who thought LeBron would be an average player..Outside of hearing what Phil really thinks, his readings is of little value...
and yet I would prefer to read a thousand of his posts over one of yours
Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.
$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.
Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Its absolutely true! NY is a starphuchers paradise! NY has little patience for a rebuild.
How is this true? You see it with our attendance in every night. This team can lose year in and year out and it sells out the arena!!!
What is pathetic and sad, and deeply misguided, and should terrify everyone is that some fans don't understand that the knicks are part of MSG and the buisness is "entertainment"!!
What should lend itself to some degree of hope is the development of youth and we have our inventory of first round picks.
When was the last time that happend?
So if you want a future in a hard cap world where free agent players rarely move, its important.
The method to hire intermediate star to feed the NY crowed while team sucks while rebuilding is nothing new.
Rangers employed Jagr, Gaborik , and Nash alike for exactly that.
So if corporation has successful practices why in the world it will not reuse them over and over.
Melo knows what he was and is paid for. And if he like he can continue to be paid for just that.
Team is at best 2 years from being entertaining on its own merit so the windows looks perfect for him and Knicks.
So I do not see any drama except of fans wanting to eat the cake, and have it too.
crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.
$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.
this is hindsight. At the time, Melo was clearly the best option. He needed an elite player and that was the only guy he could get. If you're going to fault Phil on this it should be that he was overly optimistic in thinking Melo would play defense and pass. There are things to criticize Phil for but this to me is revisionism
Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:It's pretty hard to take a guy seriously who thought LeBron would be an average player..Outside of hearing what Phil really thinks, his readings is of little value...and yet I would prefer to read a thousand of his posts over one of yours
Let me know when you become a must read...
Chandler wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.
$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.
this is hindsight. At the time, Melo was clearly the best option. He needed an elite player and that was the only guy he could get. If you're going to fault Phil on this it should be that he was overly optimistic in thinking Melo would play defense and pass. There are things to criticize Phil for but this to me is revisionism
I agree signing Melo was only real option. And one of his failures is not being able to sell Melo on the Triangle... and of course that's partially on Melo, too.
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BUT - to me it is inarguable that he failed with his stated goal of bringing in "Triangle" players in free agency. He thought he could convince LaMarcus Aldridge or even Greg Monroe, but couldn't get anyone worth keeping over two years with $30M each year. Courtney Lee is the only keeper he has brought in Free Agency. $60M in cap space over two years - almost $200M in long term deals given out to Afflalo, DWill, Rolo, Jennings, Noah, and Lee and CLee is the only keeper and he's 31, has called the coaching staff "Dumb and Dumber" and said the team this year was "beyond pep talks"... I like CLee, but he's clearly miserable here. I sort of assume he'll ask for a trade this off-season.
Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Its absolutely true! NY is a starphuchers paradise! NY has little patience for a rebuild.
How is this true? You see it with our attendance in every night. This team can lose year in and year out and it sells out the arena!!!
What is pathetic and sad, and deeply misguided, and should terrify everyone is that some fans don't understand that the knicks are part of MSG and the buisness is "entertainment"!!
What should lend itself to some degree of hope is the development of youth and we have our inventory of first round picks.
When was the last time that happend?
So if you want a future in a hard cap world where free agent players rarely move, its important.
The Garden is actually a pretty nice destination for the family, and kids especially, in terms of entertainment...My son loves it...Seems like a safe environment for kids...
holfresh wrote:Chandler wrote:holfresh wrote:It's pretty hard to take a guy seriously who thought LeBron would be an average player..Outside of hearing what Phil really thinks, his readings is of little value...and yet I would prefer to read a thousand of his posts over one of yours
Let me know when you become a must read...
I don't pretend to be, and I don't post on a thread simply to stir up shit
if you thought Rosen said something wrong then say so and explain, but to categorically say Rosen's writings are of little value is simply trolling