Knicks · If your not building your team to play like these 4 teams your toast (page 2)
Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.
Well if we are looking for consistency about how people felt about three point shooting we should probably review OP's comments from when D'Antoni was coaching and see how much he loved 3 point shooting then. I am betting you will find he ridiculed it quite as much as he ridicules the triangle now. While I don't particularly care what system we play, I do care about playing system basketball. And it's clear that the current roster is easily confused by system basketball and they want to "just play ball..."(code for iso heavy chucking). This was the exact thing D'Antoni tried to build with Melo as the centerpiece. The problem with our roster isn't what system or lack of we implement. We have gone through enough variations in the last 6 years the problem is with the personnel trying to implement it or in most cases not trying at all.
knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.
Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.
nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.
He makes 36% of his 3s and 44% of his mid-range 2s. That's not even remotely close in terms of efficiency. It's one thing if fans don't realize this but I sure hope Phil does.
knicks1248 wrote:Boston. Houston, Cave, GSW..Launching 3s at 40 to 50 of them per game, and running every chance you get..You remember when the playoffs became a half court grind out chess match..Ha. that seems like decades ago, because I'm watching these teams shoot 3s on almost every possessio no matter the shot clock, it could be 22 seconds or 2 seconds.Forget about defending it consistently, it's virtually impossible. The spurs, wizards jazz and Rapts are pretty much done, they dont have enough shooters to keep up. The only way to keep up is to do the same thing. The triangle is a half court game, At this point at least 75% of your roster should be able to hit a 3 at any given moment..
Boston and Hoston have made most people eat their words, because they didn't think MDAs attack would work in the playoffs, and they keep saying Isaiah is to small., yet they keep proving them wrong every game.
I wonder if a team was able to draft a young Shaq - would that change anything on folks perspectives?
nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.
The thing is I sort of understand phils thinking, but the reality is what it is.
We are in a ERA where every position it's launching 3's at a extremely high rate, and a perfect example is MARC GASOL, he took a TOTAL of 63 three pointers in his first 8 seasons, this year he took 268 3's, and Robin lopez, and Cousins have similar stats. This is a copy cat league, everyone knows that
knicks1248 wrote:Boston. Houston, Cave, GSW..Launching 3s at 40 to 50 of them per game, and running every chance you get..You remember when the playoffs became a half court grind out chess match..Ha. that seems like decades ago, because I'm watching these teams shoot 3s on almost every possessio no matter the shot clock, it could be 22 seconds or 2 seconds.Forget about defending it consistently, it's virtually impossible. The spurs, wizards jazz and Rapts are pretty much done, they dont have enough shooters to keep up. The only way to keep up is to do the same thing. The triangle is a half court game, At this point at least 75% of your roster should be able to hit a 3 at any given moment..
Boston and Hoston have made most people eat their words, because they didn't think MDAs attack would work in the playoffs, and they keep saying Isaiah is to small., yet they keep proving them wrong every game.
Yea so the triangle only won because of the the great players like Jordan and Pippen and Kobe and Shaq but these teams aren't winning because they have the best players in the NBA but because they shoot 3s.
Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.
He makes 36% of his 3s and 44% of his mid-range 2s. That's not even remotely close in terms of efficiency. It's one thing if fans don't realize this but I sure hope Phil does.
I haven't heard Phil saying he wanted KP settling for long 2s either. He wants the triangle motion to create easy scoring opportunities that's pretty much it. Don't matter if its an open 3, open long 2, layup/dunk. Use ball movement to beat the defense and get the best shot possible.
franco12 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Boston. Houston, Cave, GSW..Launching 3s at 40 to 50 of them per game, and running every chance you get..You remember when the playoffs became a half court grind out chess match..Ha. that seems like decades ago, because I'm watching these teams shoot 3s on almost every possessio no matter the shot clock, it could be 22 seconds or 2 seconds.Forget about defending it consistently, it's virtually impossible. The spurs, wizards jazz and Rapts are pretty much done, they dont have enough shooters to keep up. The only way to keep up is to do the same thing. The triangle is a half court game, At this point at least 75% of your roster should be able to hit a 3 at any given moment..
Boston and Hoston have made most people eat their words, because they didn't think MDAs attack would work in the playoffs, and they keep saying Isaiah is to small., yet they keep proving them wrong every game.
I wonder if a team was able to draft a young Shaq - would that change anything on folks perspectives?
The modern era is to shoot as many close shots to the basket and as many 3s as possible. So Shaq would fits within the first part and can pass to open 3 point shooters when he's double teamed. Players who took tons of midrange shots (not close 2s) are the ones who wouldn't fit as well.
newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.
He makes 36% of his 3s and 44% of his mid-range 2s. That's not even remotely close in terms of efficiency. It's one thing if fans don't realize this but I sure hope Phil does.I haven't heard Phil saying he wanted KP settling for long 2s either. He wants the triangle motion to create easy scoring opportunities that's pretty much it. Don't matter if its an open 3, open long 2, layup/dunk. Use ball movement to beat the defense and get the best shot possible.
KP's percentage on 2s plummets once he gets beyond 3 feet from the basket. It's not just an issue of "long" 2s. He's around 40% on 2s from beyond 3 feet.
Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.
No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
That's trolling and I want it to step.
martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
That's trolling and I want it to step.
I didn't say the bold things. I don 't think I said any of the things you're complaining about actually.
Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
That's trolling and I want it to step.
I didn't say the bold things. I don 't think I said any of the things you're complaining about actually.
knicks1248 did and this was your response:
I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.
Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
That's trolling and I want it to step.
I didn't say the bold things. I don 't think I said any of the things you're complaining about actually.
The point is the general concern that Phil doesn't understand the modern nba offense is a legitimate discussion topic, and enough has happened in Phil's time to raise serious questions. Yes, every concern could be "explained away" if you take a generous interpretation on everything that Phil has done and said.
martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
That's trolling and I want it to step.
I didn't say the bold things. I don 't think I said any of the things you're complaining about actually.knicks1248 did and this was your response:
I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.
I just added a new reply but I was referring to the overall question marks about Phil not to every specific claim 1248 made. Regardless, 1248 did not say exactly what you're saying: that he wants KP to never shoot a 3 pointer.
knicks1248 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.The thing is I sort of understand phils thinking, but the reality is what it is.
We are in a ERA where every position it's launching 3's at a extremely high rate, and a perfect example is MARC GASOL, he took a TOTAL of 63 three pointers in his first 8 seasons, this year he took 268 3's, and Robin lopez, and Cousins have similar stats. This is a copy cat league, everyone knows that
Great line form someone who likes to take conjecture and validate it thru their own mind, then spew it back as fact with no basis.
When Phil made his statement about 3's, GSW had yet to win a chip. We had not see an offensive juggernut like GSW actually take it all the way to a chip. They were very fortunate along the way as injuries in the west really helped them. Cav's lost Kyrie in game one, an overtime win by GSW, and Cav's stil had a 2-1 lead. That was also Cav's without Kevin Love.
Im not taking anything away from them. They play to their personal which is an amazing tandem of long range shooters. They defied what we know up to then. Cav's won the next year. Still quite and accomplishment to play two finals in a row.
As Martin said, don't always take everything Phil says as the ultimate final opinion. KP and Willy are not low post slumber giants of a past era. KP is not defined by his height. He is a true evolution of the stretch 5.
Most thought Rambis was the coach after last year and think Fan pushback was reason he went elsewhere. That's delusional.
If you read phils books, you start to scratch the surface, but you still don't know what he is thinking.
Bonn1997 wrote:franco12 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Boston. Houston, Cave, GSW..Launching 3s at 40 to 50 of them per game, and running every chance you get..You remember when the playoffs became a half court grind out chess match..Ha. that seems like decades ago, because I'm watching these teams shoot 3s on almost every possessio no matter the shot clock, it could be 22 seconds or 2 seconds.Forget about defending it consistently, it's virtually impossible. The spurs, wizards jazz and Rapts are pretty much done, they dont have enough shooters to keep up. The only way to keep up is to do the same thing. The triangle is a half court game, At this point at least 75% of your roster should be able to hit a 3 at any given moment..
Boston and Hoston have made most people eat their words, because they didn't think MDAs attack would work in the playoffs, and they keep saying Isaiah is to small., yet they keep proving them wrong every game.
I wonder if a team was able to draft a young Shaq - would that change anything on folks perspectives?
The modern era is to shoot as many close shots to the basket and as many 3s as possible. So Shaq would fits within the first part and can pass to open 3 point shooters when he's double teamed. Players who took tons of midrange shots (not close 2s) are the ones who wouldn't fit as well.
I remeber the Lakers adding Horry for the same principals of given Shaq as much space as possible and Horry hitting game winning 3s off that space, All within the triangle
Bonn1997 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.
He makes 36% of his 3s and 44% of his mid-range 2s. That's not even remotely close in terms of efficiency. It's one thing if fans don't realize this but I sure hope Phil does.I haven't heard Phil saying he wanted KP settling for long 2s either. He wants the triangle motion to create easy scoring opportunities that's pretty much it. Don't matter if its an open 3, open long 2, layup/dunk. Use ball movement to beat the defense and get the best shot possible.
KP's percentage on 2s plummets once he gets beyond 3 feet from the basket. It's not just an issue of "long" 2s. He's around 40% on 2s from beyond 3 feet.
KP should get way more dunks and layups then he does but we dont move the ball. More Val movement would create these easier looks.
This is CLEARLY what Phil stated so can we stop with the false statements and assumptions about what Phil is doing?
“I let Jeff do what he wanted to do — an agreement to try to blend what we call whatever that flow, fastbreak, early shooting offense into something formatted,’’ Jackson said. “We kind of let it roll until things didn’t roll well before we [said it] looks like we need some more fundamentals, more function towards the end of a game. They showed at the end of season they started being able to do some of that.’’http://nypost.com/2017/04/15/phil-jackso...
“I like the backbone of what we have,’’ Jackson added later in the session. “You can see what we’ve got. Guys like Ron [Baker] and Chasson [Randle] and Willy Hernangomez, and the kids we’re bringing into this organization have a certain sense of how to play in the structure, the way we want to play.“I think we’re moving in that direction. It’s not fast enough, obviously to carry the day, but I think we’re going to get there.’’
What fans should expect to see out of the Knicks next season: “Playing hard like we played the last five, six games. Guys getting up into people, playing hard, pick up full court at times. You know, ball movement, activity instead of standing. Those type of things. That’s what they’re going to see more of.’’
1. Shooting. You should have players than can shoot from the perimeter.
2. Defense. You need players that are 2 way players.
3. Hard Work. You need hard working players.
These 3 things are true for all championship caliber teams in the history of the NBA. No matter what system they are using at that time.
Some Knicks also feel that the offense is easy to defend. Opposing players have told the Knicks that they can predict where they’ll be when running the triangle, and one Eastern Conference coach last season told friends that defending the triangle was one of the easiest assignments in the league because of that.The return to the triangle is one reason why several veterans have started to lose faith in Hornacek recently, sources say.
Players talk to the opposing teams, and this has been said over and over again