Knicks · If your not building your team to play like these 4 teams your toast (page 3)
Some Knicks also feel that the offense is easy to defend. Opposing players have told the Knicks that they can predict where they’ll be when running the triangle, and one Eastern Conference coach last season told friends that defending the triangle was one of the easiest assignments in the league because of that.The return to the triangle is one reason why several veterans have started to lose faith in Hornacek recently, sources say.
Players talk to the opposing teams, and this has been said over and over again
NYKBocker wrote:The foundation of a championship caliber team has always been simple. You need 3 things from your players.
1. Shooting. You should have players than can shoot from the perimeter.
2. Defense. You need players that are 2 way players.
3. Hard Work. You need hard working players.These 3 things are true for all championship caliber teams in the history of the NBA. No matter what system they are using at that time.
Good points. Would also add that this is a superstars league. The teams that are succedding have multiple MVP/Elite type players. That allows them to succeed but to also attract integral pieces. Teams like GS, Spurs, Houston, Boston, Cavs will always have an easier time constructuing a team as FA's want to take less to play for them just to win a chip. Hard to compete with that.
As for thread topic, think its more about what I just said above. Dont think you can just put a whole bunch of 3pt. shooters together. You have to have an elite player that demands double teams so that those 3pt. shooters are left open. Ie, Thomas, LBJ, Irving, Harden, Thompson and Curry. You also need veteran stars that are looking to play lesser roles off the bench and take less money. If you look at our best year, we had an elite player, 3pt. shooters, and excellent Vets that were on our second unit. But I do agree that having at least 2 players on the floor that can knock down 3's makes you a tougher team to defend.
Nalod wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
He's not a fan of bad shots.
KP can take 3-5 bad shots a game, usually they are 3 point shots.
He's 7'3 who has a great midrange game.
He settles for the 3 point shot that he shot a lower and lower percentage on as the season went on.Is Phil wrong for wanting KP to play to his strengths?
It's not like KP shoots 3's like Curry. He's a 36% shooter from there. And after the first great month of shooting, he was more like a 32% shooter rest of the season.The thing is I sort of understand phils thinking, but the reality is what it is.
We are in a ERA where every position it's launching 3's at a extremely high rate, and a perfect example is MARC GASOL, he took a TOTAL of 63 three pointers in his first 8 seasons, this year he took 268 3's, and Robin lopez, and Cousins have similar stats. This is a copy cat league, everyone knows thatGreat line form someone who likes to take conjecture and validate it thru their own mind, then spew it back as fact with no basis.
When Phil made his statement about 3's, GSW had yet to win a chip. We had not see an offensive juggernut like GSW actually take it all the way to a chip. They were very fortunate along the way as injuries in the west really helped them. Cav's lost Kyrie in game one, an overtime win by GSW, and Cav's stil had a 2-1 lead. That was also Cav's without Kevin Love.
Im not taking anything away from them. They play to their personal which is an amazing tandem of long range shooters. They defied what we know up to then. Cav's won the next year. Still quite and accomplishment to play two finals in a row.As Martin said, don't always take everything Phil says as the ultimate final opinion. KP and Willy are not low post slumber giants of a past era. KP is not defined by his height. He is a true evolution of the stretch 5.
Most thought Rambis was the coach after last year and think Fan pushback was reason he went elsewhere. That's delusional.
If you read phils books, you start to scratch the surface, but you still don't know what he is thinking.
Agree. Dont think Phil saying KP needs to take less bad 3pt. shots is a judgment of his overall game. I have always knocked KP for his tendancy to settle for long 3's. Does not mean I dont want him to take the ones where he is open and in rythm. Also, any coach/GM/Prez would want his 7'3 guy to first take advantage of easier opportunities, if contested. Same thing for Melo, hate when he goes one on one behind the 3 point line and chucks. Players all need to play within their strenghts and need to get the best shot available. Settling for any contested long 3 is never a good look.
Do think that KP should and will develop a quick jump shot off a screen as well as a post up game. That will take his game to the next level. He just makes a short jumper off a screen look so easy. Hope he also cuts to the basket a bit more off screens instead of poping. But agree, before its all done, he may redefine the position.
knicks1248 wrote:The problem I have is when you here stuff like thisSome Knicks also feel that the offense is easy to defend. Opposing players have told the Knicks that they can predict where they’ll be when running the triangle, and one Eastern Conference coach last season told friends that defending the triangle was one of the easiest assignments in the league because of that.The return to the triangle is one reason why several veterans have started to lose faith in Hornacek recently, sources say.
Players talk to the opposing teams, and this has been said over and over again
Just ignore that stuff! First of all they overstate the case when it comes to being "easy to defend". That's only because of the level of talent and understanding of the Triangle that our players had. Once the Kids got a chance to play you could see that they executed FASTER and at a higher level. With more talented kids this offense should start humming.
A talented PG in this draft and perhaps a FA PG with good 2 Way skills will help a lot. It's not the Offense but rather the execution and talent level of the players. As you increase both Talent and Execution this will be a non issue just as it's been for nearly 80 years since it was created by Sam Barry and enhanced by Barry's protege Tex Winter.
martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
That's trolling and I want it to step.
Bravo. While Phil's comments can be bold or provocative, it gets old when whatever he said is twisted into a bizarre theory of everything.
For everyone, opinions are fluid. We are bombarded by information all the time and it effects our opinions without question. But a barrage of misinformation is toxic and wastes everyone's time.
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.
Nalod wrote:So what have we learned?
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.
Nalod, what is absolutely befuddling is why the Phil-hating community believes this with absolute conviction. The executives and coaching staff either play with a royal flush every hand (transaction, trade, whatever) or they've failed. Why does it take them years to figure out that that can never happen, that there are pluses and minuses and unintended brain-farts along the way?
In retrospect, everything looks obvious. In real-time the fog of immediacy makes it much less so.
fwk00 wrote:Nalod wrote:So what have we learned?
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.Nalod, what is absolutely befuddling is why the Phil-hating community believes this with absolute conviction. The executives and coaching staff either play with a royal flush every hand (transaction, trade, whatever) or they've failed. Why does it take them years to figure out that that can never happen, that there are pluses and minuses and unintended brain-farts along the way?
In retrospect, everything looks obvious. In real-time the fog of immediacy makes it much less so.
That's why this is good Dolan is sticking with Phil. This management team is going to have learned from their mistakes and at this stage they are more clear on every aspect of what they want to do with this team.
The building of this roster has more focus after finding some prospects that worked and embody the principles Phil has wanted to instill. Kids giving Max Effort on both ends and playing team ball.
martin wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:martin wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Agreed. Need to be a 3pt shooting team to win today. The nice thing is, KP is a great 3pt shooting F/C. He's the ideal center for the future of basketball. Surround him with 4 guys who can shoot and defend and it's a good plan.true, But phil was thrilled about the game kp didn't take one 3 in a game. It's no secrete he's not a fan of that shot
Are you don't making the inane comments in the forum? I'm getting tired of it.
Phil has mocked teams that shoot a lot of 3s too. Hopefully he's watching and learning. I think 1248 raises a legitimate concern.No he doesn't Bonn, and if you can't read into the context of both what Phil said during his press conference I don't know what to say, but I do think you and knicks1248 are being purposely ignorant.
Yeah Phil sent out a dumbass tweet, probably while he was high, mocking GS when they had a bad game. So what? That's called trash talking, and it was foolish by Phil. Does that mean his complete strategy and understanding of the game is based off of one tweet? Thinking like that will get you nowhere.
Phil just made his one big splash in the one draft he had a high draft pick by nabbing the first unicorn known to the NBA, a sweet shooting, 3pt shooting, 7'3" center with mobility and zero post game. That should lend folks to more where his head is at. He also just hired a coached that most certainly had a very modern look to an offense in the NBA - lots of guards doing lots of spacing things.
And you and knicks1248 want me to think that Phil wants his Unicorn to shoot ZERO 3pointers? That's what we can get out of the press conference when it's probably obvious to everyone else that Phil was talking about bad shots versus good shots?
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.
IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?
To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
Exactly, I'm all for Jeffs thinking, but when phil said go back to basics and let rambis run things, thats when i lost even more respect for this phil. Then a guy like Rose who almost purposely didn't shoot 3's and there's mutual interest..wow phil is more enamored with his drives to the basket then the fact that he shoot less 3's then your center.
MY team would have at least 6 guys on the squad the can shoot 35 or above from downtown. Put it this way, I would take MDA's system over this triangle sht any day of the wk, any minute of the day
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
Exactly, I'm all for Jeffs thinking, but when phil said go back to basics and let rambis run things, thats when i lost even more respect for this phil. Then a guy like Rose who almost purposely didn't shoot 3's and there's mutual interest..wow phil is more enamored with his drives to the basket then the fact that he shoot less 3's then your center.
MY team would have at least 6 guys on the squad the can shoot 35 or above from downtown. Put it this way, I would take MDA's system over this triangle sht any day of the wk, any minute of the day
Once again you misinterpreted what Phil did. The Triangle refocus at that point was to simply make sure the team had some better fundamentals on the execution of the Half Court sets to fall back on when the Early Offense didn't generate anything. It wasn't Phil saying we're gonna drop all of Jeff's stuff and run Rambis style Pure Triangle!!! The Media and fans like yourself read that totally wrong!
One way you can tell is that the Team NEVER went 100% Triangle. It was just re-emphasized so that they could get better at it for when it was needed. They still ran Jeff's Schemes Early in the Shot clock. The team was really executing once the kids got more time and were able to develop confidence. They started to execute much faster which is important with the Triangle. Up til now the Knicks were always slow and methodical, which what you're complaints are based on IMO.
As for the Rose thing once again you're taking it too far. This team does need penetration. PHIL IS NOT ANTI 3 POINT SHOTS! Did you just not watch basketball when Phil was coaching that you somehow missed on the Great 3 pt shooters he had. Yes the game has changed over the decades but Phil always had 3 pt shooting the corner 3pt shot was a staple of the Triangle. Hodges, Paxson, Kerr, Armstrong... It's a total misread of what Phil is talking about. He just isn't a big fan of wildly jacking up 3's as opposed to good offense.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
Bad means the type of shot typically has a low point return for the team, right? Look at KP's percentages. He probably takes 1 bad 3 for every 10 bad 2 point shots. And if Phil understands modern NBA offense, I don't even get why Rose at over $20 mil a year would be on the roster or why half the cap would be spent on two volume scorers or why he'd ever mock 3 point shooting. I know Martin said maybe he was high when he made the tweets. Maybe he was high when he made all his trades and FA signings too then.
fwk00 wrote:Nalod wrote:So what have we learned?
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.Nalod, what is absolutely befuddling is why the Phil-hating community believes this with absolute conviction. The executives and coaching staff either play with a royal flush every hand (transaction, trade, whatever) or they've failed. Why does it take them years to figure out that that can never happen, that there are pluses and minuses and unintended brain-farts along the way?
In retrospect, everything looks obvious. In real-time the fog of immediacy makes it much less so.
Can you give an example of any criticisms of Phil's decisions Yellowboy or I or others who look at the metrics are making now that we did not make *prospectively* (rather than "in retrospect")? I can already tell you the answer is no. This "hindsight" or "retrospect" excuse some keep making is just fans who are in denial about how bad the thinking was *at the time of* Phil's major trades and signings. It's not clear to me how someone who really was using the best available modern analytics and understood things like player offensive efficiency, player aging curves, probability and statistics, and the defensive metrics would be making the decisions he makes.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
Bad means the type of shot typically has a low point return for the team, right? Look at KP's percentages. He probably takes 1 bad 3 for every 10 bad 2 point shots. And if Phil understands modern NBA offense, I don't even get why Rose at over $20 mil a year would be on the roster or why half the cap would be spent on two volume scorers or why he'd ever mock 3 point shooting. I know Martin said maybe he was high when he made the tweets. Maybe he was high when he made all his trades and FA signings too then.
here is my question- what produces more points, 10 bad 3 pt shots or 10 good 2 pt shots?
All depends on how you define bad and good.
I did a google search for a good mid range percentage - brought up an article about mid range shooters- #10 was LaMarcus Aldrige - he shot about 41% from mid range
so, 10 shots, he produces 8 points.
So now, the question is - a bad 3pt- I'm not thinking hail mary heave. Perhaps a contested shot? What percentage can we use?
Can we use the Net's 3pt percentage as a team? They clearly stink. But they shot 33.8% - and that produces 9 points.
KP is 7'3". He should be able to shoot over just about anyone guarding him.
Imagine what he would do on Golden State?
franco12 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
Bad means the type of shot typically has a low point return for the team, right? Look at KP's percentages. He probably takes 1 bad 3 for every 10 bad 2 point shots. And if Phil understands modern NBA offense, I don't even get why Rose at over $20 mil a year would be on the roster or why half the cap would be spent on two volume scorers or why he'd ever mock 3 point shooting. I know Martin said maybe he was high when he made the tweets. Maybe he was high when he made all his trades and FA signings too then.here is my question- what produces more points, 10 bad 3 pt shots or 10 good 2 pt shots?
All depends on how you define bad and good.
I did a google search for a good mid range percentage - brought up an article about mid range shooters- #10 was LaMarcus Aldrige - he shot about 41% from mid range
so, 10 shots, he produces 8 points.
So now, the question is - a bad 3pt- I'm not thinking hail mary heave. Perhaps a contested shot? What percentage can we use?
Can we use the Net's 3pt percentage as a team? They clearly stink. But they shot 33.8% - and that produces 9 points.
KP is 7'3". He should be able to shoot over just about anyone guarding him.
Imagine what he would do on Golden State?
Well, it depends on how bad the 3s and how good the 2s were. You do raise a good question, though. I wish more data was available. Even though almost all players in the league have bad percentages on mid-range shots, I suspect a few have good percentages on *open* mid-range shots. I haven't actually found data on this though. But that would mean that some players probably should be taking 1 or 2 voluntary (not just shot-clock expiring) open mid range shots a game. KP is brutal from 3 to 10 feet and 16 to 23 feet but he actually shot 48% from 10 to 16 feet. That's 0.96 points per shot, which is not good. but he probably was way below 48% on contested shots from that area and way above it on open shots.
The amount of "bad" 3s that KP would have to eliminate to go from being a good (36%) to elite (40%) 3 point shooter is pretty small though. That just means 1 less miss out of every 25 shots. That's like 2 or 3 fewer misses a month. In contrast, he's taking about 5 to 7 low percentage 2 point shots a game.
franco12 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:
you gotta be kidding me, I never said anything about Phil not wanting KP to shoot any 3's, and that's exactly why you took this for trolling.IDK man, it seems like when phil says something, some look at it different. Just like when he said he didn't think he criticize melo, some scratched their heads like (yeah you kind of did) but whatever, no biggie.
At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more 3's unless they change the rules of the game, and players are going to want to play like that. You saw the all star game, how many mid range shots went up, over 50% of the shots were 3's, it was ridiculous.
So when phil say it's a cheap lazy shot, He's 100% RIGHT and I totally agree, but what are going to do, everyone's doing it, and having lot's of success, and the players seem to be on the same page with that style. Isn't this a players league
The problem is that you're interpreting Phil's comments to be a problem. It's not a problem. Phil wants his players to play SMART. Too often KP was taking bad shots from 3pt range. There's no reason to ever take a bad 3pt shot when you can run the offense and get a GOOD 3pt shot. KP is 7-3 and really good close to the rim so why not get some shots up in there as opposed to just jacking 3's with no rhythm?To further my point Jeff was BEGGING Rose to take 3's and badgering CLee to shoot more and be more aggressive attack off the dribble. If Rose and BJ were actually taking the 3's that were there for them the Knicks attempts would easily be higher. It wasn't a scheme problem just a personnel problem. We need more 3pt shooters. Jeff's Triangle featured a lot of Spread PnR with 3pt spacing so it's not what you describe at all.
Bad means the type of shot typically has a low point return for the team, right? Look at KP's percentages. He probably takes 1 bad 3 for every 10 bad 2 point shots. And if Phil understands modern NBA offense, I don't even get why Rose at over $20 mil a year would be on the roster or why half the cap would be spent on two volume scorers or why he'd ever mock 3 point shooting. I know Martin said maybe he was high when he made the tweets. Maybe he was high when he made all his trades and FA signings too then.here is my question- what produces more points, 10 bad 3 pt shots or 10 good 2 pt shots?
All depends on how you define bad and good.
I did a google search for a good mid range percentage - brought up an article about mid range shooters- #10 was LaMarcus Aldrige - he shot about 41% from mid range
so, 10 shots, he produces 8 points.
So now, the question is - a bad 3pt- I'm not thinking hail mary heave. Perhaps a contested shot? What percentage can we use?
Can we use the Net's 3pt percentage as a team? They clearly stink. But they shot 33.8% - and that produces 9 points.
KP is 7'3". He should be able to shoot over just about anyone guarding him.
Imagine what he would do on Golden State?
We also have to factor in what happens when a poorly timed 3 is missed and the long rebound leads to a score on the other end. This is about more than just the % on offense. Phil is thinking about floor balance too. A good 3 is coming when the defense is off balance and comes in the rhythm for the offense.
Jeff actually increased the number of 3's per game but it was limited by Rose refusing to take them. I believe the Knicks will show an increase in 3pt attempts if we replace Rose with a PG that actually looks to shoot those wide open 3's he passed up.
Bonn1997 wrote:fwk00 wrote:Nalod wrote:So what have we learned?
If you add allstars to the roster without deleting any assets, either via draft or free agency, or by superior trading opportunity then the team is better?
Phuching "A" brilliant concept!!!! Im sure it took years of study to figure that one out.Nalod, what is absolutely befuddling is why the Phil-hating community believes this with absolute conviction. The executives and coaching staff either play with a royal flush every hand (transaction, trade, whatever) or they've failed. Why does it take them years to figure out that that can never happen, that there are pluses and minuses and unintended brain-farts along the way?
In retrospect, everything looks obvious. In real-time the fog of immediacy makes it much less so.
Can you give an example of any criticisms of Phil's decisions Yellowboy or I or others who look at the metrics are making now that we did not make *prospectively* (rather than "in retrospect")? I can already tell you the answer is no. This "hindsight" or "retrospect" excuse some keep making is just fans who are in denial about how bad the thinking was *at the time of* Phil's major trades and signings. It's not clear to me how someone who really was using the best available modern analytics and understood things like player offensive efficiency, player aging curves, probability and statistics, and the defensive metrics would be making the decisions he makes.
FWK disappeared?