fishmike wrote:Chandler wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Paris907 wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:We are still talking about this s***. Melo wasnt the first or last player that wanted his coach removed. Magic got westhead fired....The problem with MDA is he can only run his system. He couldnt adapt to his roster and that was his downfall. When Riley joined the Knicks, he didnt force Ewing and Oak to play in the showtime system. He built a system that fit the roster he had...
Not every coach is the same! Many of the MOST SUCCESSFUL coaches in sports have been System coaches. There's nothing inherently wrong with it if you know who you've hired and what he's about. Knicks failed to support MDA knowing he's a system coach.
System coaches are fine if you have the right pieces...If you have a roster and or your best player that doesn't fit your system, you adjust accordingly.
I love Don Nelson and his innovated rosters and line ups. He was ahead of his time; one of the first coaches to play position-less basketball, particularly with that 1987 and 88 Bucks team which is what most teams are doing in today's games. However, I didn't believe he had the right roster to play the system he wanted with Ewing, Oak etc. He should have adjusted to the roster...With that said, lets not pretend Ewing didn't have a hand in firing Nelson.
Ewing wanted Nelson gone because Nelson wanted the offense to run through Mason
Thats when we fired coaches for being just 7 games above .500, now w'ere pulling for coaches who who win 30 games..The Bar has sunk to embarrassing levels
know your history. Nelson lobbied for the Knicks to trade Ewing for Shaq. Shaq was leaving as a FA and Orlando would have accepted the trade as it was their only chance to get value. Ewing heard about it and pretty much quit on Nelson resulting in his termination.
Can we trade Melo for Shaq?
Honestly, I typically pride myself for basketball history, but didn't know (or forgot) the above.
whats amazing is Nellie was spot on. Imagine how the course of the Knicks change if we had Shaq? I love Ewing and always will but man...
Was it Nellie who also said the Knicks would never win with Ewing as their best player? Sounds familiar
Funny thing is the Knicks did surround Ewing with everyone they possibly could and still was not enough. There is a parallel to Melo in that, even if we had surrounded Melo with these mythical players (assume great but not greater than Melo) would we have been in the same boat of a great team, but not great enough
Anyway, hoping to clean house a bit and that KP comes back to jesus
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Paris907 wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:We are still talking about this s***. Melo wasnt the first or last player that wanted his coach removed. Magic got westhead fired....The problem with MDA is he can only run his system. He couldnt adapt to his roster and that was his downfall. When Riley joined the Knicks, he didnt force Ewing and Oak to play in the showtime system. He built a system that fit the roster he had...
Not every coach is the same! Many of the MOST SUCCESSFUL coaches in sports have been System coaches. There's nothing inherently wrong with it if you know who you've hired and what he's about. Knicks failed to support MDA knowing he's a system coach.
System coaches are fine if you have the right pieces...If you have a roster and or your best player that doesn't fit your system, you adjust accordingly.
I love Don Nelson and his innovated rosters and line ups. He was ahead of his time; one of the first coaches to play position-less basketball, particularly with that 1987 and 88 Bucks team which is what most teams are doing in today's games. However, I didn't believe he had the right roster to play the system he wanted with Ewing, Oak etc. He should have adjusted to the roster...With that said, lets not pretend Ewing didn't have a hand in firing Nelson.
Ewing wanted Nelson gone because Nelson wanted the offense to run through Mason
The difference is that Ewing took a team to the finals once and was part of the 2nd one. Melo gets people traded, canned and does nothing. IMO, this year, Phil tried to accomodate him with geting Rose and Noah and they stunk.....He does not lead. He cannot carry a team.
I agree and I think the fact that Melo seemed to effectively revolt from the team goals (contrary to last year where he at least tried) had Phil and Jeff fuming.
Chandler wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Paris907 wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:We are still talking about this s***. Melo wasnt the first or last player that wanted his coach removed. Magic got westhead fired....The problem with MDA is he can only run his system. He couldnt adapt to his roster and that was his downfall. When Riley joined the Knicks, he didnt force Ewing and Oak to play in the showtime system. He built a system that fit the roster he had...
Not every coach is the same! Many of the MOST SUCCESSFUL coaches in sports have been System coaches. There's nothing inherently wrong with it if you know who you've hired and what he's about. Knicks failed to support MDA knowing he's a system coach.
System coaches are fine if you have the right pieces...If you have a roster and or your best player that doesn't fit your system, you adjust accordingly.
I love Don Nelson and his innovated rosters and line ups. He was ahead of his time; one of the first coaches to play position-less basketball, particularly with that 1987 and 88 Bucks team which is what most teams are doing in today's games. However, I didn't believe he had the right roster to play the system he wanted with Ewing, Oak etc. He should have adjusted to the roster...With that said, lets not pretend Ewing didn't have a hand in firing Nelson.
Ewing wanted Nelson gone because Nelson wanted the offense to run through Mason
The difference is that Ewing took a team to the finals once and was part of the 2nd one. Melo gets people traded, canned and does nothing. IMO, this year, Phil tried to accomodate him with geting Rose and Noah and they stunk.....He does not lead. He cannot carry a team.
I agree and I think the fact that Melo seemed to effectively revolt from the team goals (contrary to last year where he at least tried) had Phil and Jeff fuming.
The Knicks had plenty of talent this year to be a playoff team. I ca't begin to express the contempt I feel about Melo. Goes off to play the Olympics and comes back wholly unprepared to win with the Knicks as if he did his bit and now its a matter of collecting checks.
I could care less what Melo brings back... get him the hell out of here.
The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KP
knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KP
Melo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
fwk00 wrote:Chandler wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Paris907 wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:We are still talking about this s***. Melo wasnt the first or last player that wanted his coach removed. Magic got westhead fired....The problem with MDA is he can only run his system. He couldnt adapt to his roster and that was his downfall. When Riley joined the Knicks, he didnt force Ewing and Oak to play in the showtime system. He built a system that fit the roster he had...
Not every coach is the same! Many of the MOST SUCCESSFUL coaches in sports have been System coaches. There's nothing inherently wrong with it if you know who you've hired and what he's about. Knicks failed to support MDA knowing he's a system coach.
System coaches are fine if you have the right pieces...If you have a roster and or your best player that doesn't fit your system, you adjust accordingly.
I love Don Nelson and his innovated rosters and line ups. He was ahead of his time; one of the first coaches to play position-less basketball, particularly with that 1987 and 88 Bucks team which is what most teams are doing in today's games. However, I didn't believe he had the right roster to play the system he wanted with Ewing, Oak etc. He should have adjusted to the roster...With that said, lets not pretend Ewing didn't have a hand in firing Nelson.
Ewing wanted Nelson gone because Nelson wanted the offense to run through Mason
The difference is that Ewing took a team to the finals once and was part of the 2nd one. Melo gets people traded, canned and does nothing. IMO, this year, Phil tried to accomodate him with geting Rose and Noah and they stunk.....He does not lead. He cannot carry a team.
I agree and I think the fact that Melo seemed to effectively revolt from the team goals (contrary to last year where he at least tried) had Phil and Jeff fuming.
The Knicks had plenty of talent this year to be a playoff team. I ca't begin to express the contempt I feel about Melo. Goes off to play the Olympics and comes back wholly unprepared to win with the Knicks as if he did his bit and now its a matter of collecting checks.
I could care less what Melo brings back... get him the hell out of here.
There were a # of reasons why this squad didn't make the playoffs. Melo is far from the only reason...
fwk00 wrote:Chandler wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Paris907 wrote:Uptown wrote:nixluva wrote:Uptown wrote:We are still talking about this s***. Melo wasnt the first or last player that wanted his coach removed. Magic got westhead fired....The problem with MDA is he can only run his system. He couldnt adapt to his roster and that was his downfall. When Riley joined the Knicks, he didnt force Ewing and Oak to play in the showtime system. He built a system that fit the roster he had...
Not every coach is the same! Many of the MOST SUCCESSFUL coaches in sports have been System coaches. There's nothing inherently wrong with it if you know who you've hired and what he's about. Knicks failed to support MDA knowing he's a system coach.
System coaches are fine if you have the right pieces...If you have a roster and or your best player that doesn't fit your system, you adjust accordingly.
I love Don Nelson and his innovated rosters and line ups. He was ahead of his time; one of the first coaches to play position-less basketball, particularly with that 1987 and 88 Bucks team which is what most teams are doing in today's games. However, I didn't believe he had the right roster to play the system he wanted with Ewing, Oak etc. He should have adjusted to the roster...With that said, lets not pretend Ewing didn't have a hand in firing Nelson.
Ewing wanted Nelson gone because Nelson wanted the offense to run through Mason
The difference is that Ewing took a team to the finals once and was part of the 2nd one. Melo gets people traded, canned and does nothing. IMO, this year, Phil tried to accomodate him with geting Rose and Noah and they stunk.....He does not lead. He cannot carry a team.
I agree and I think the fact that Melo seemed to effectively revolt from the team goals (contrary to last year where he at least tried) had Phil and Jeff fuming.
The Knicks had plenty of talent this year to be a playoff team. I ca't begin to express the contempt I feel about Melo. Goes off to play the Olympics and comes back wholly unprepared to win with the Knicks as if he did his bit and now its a matter of collecting checks.
I could care less what Melo brings back... get him the hell out of here.
The knicks had 6 rookies on their roster, 5 were undrafted and one was a second round pick. They had 8 undrafted players and only 5 guys taken in the first round when they were drafted after Jennings left. I am not sure how you can classify that as 'plenty of talent' but I would love to here an explanation.
CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:That has always been speculated but when the new gm hires his college roommate to be the associate head coach in charge of defense, amnesties your point guard, signs a marquee traditional center and gives you Toney Douglas to run your system for the last year of the deal the writing is on the wall.
Imcredible addition to a thread on Melo.
Yeah sometimes the details around the situation are important. But who needs details if it doesn't fit with what you hope happened.
LOL - your denial is about as pathetic as your weak attemlts at deflection.
So you thought Grunwald was all in with Dantoni? What made you come to that conclusion?
Nah, I just think you are/were all in woth Melo. I also think D'Antoni had proved he can win and that his system works at least to the extent of seeing success in the playoffs, Melo has proved exactly nothing, but yeah it's everyone else's fault as usual.
Walsh had a vision and a plan. Perhaps Lebron had blessed MDA and it would be considered as part of him coming.
The lure and instant formation of the "Heatles" under Riley was a better option.
Starphuchers we are, we go get Amare and then Melo. Walsh was neutered by then and enter the lost years of Grunwald (good man BTW) but with limited access to assets what was is what became.
Since its all about blame, its about Dolan having lost "Rasputin" (Isiah) to guide him into the abyss figured he'd just do it himself this time.
What befuddles me is what did Melo see besides the bright lights of broadway that would have him believe that he'd find a successful on court situation? Did he think he'd attract other players and create a sort of "Heatles" knockoff but with CP3 and some other super friend? Did the CAA mafia think it could make it happen?
There is enough blame to go around from Melo's empty Rolodex, to Dolan's enabling, and La La's booty. Bottom line is not Walsh failing to move up a spot, but never falling far enough and trading picks as part of a lame decision making process.
Nalod wrote:Walsh had a vision and a plan. Perhaps Lebron had blessed MDA and it would be considered as part of him coming.
The lure and instant formation of the "Heatles" under Riley was a better option.
Starphuchers we are, we go get Amare and then Melo. Walsh was neutered by then and enter the lost years of Grunwald (good man BTW) but with limited access to assets what was is what became.Since its all about blame, its about Dolan having lost "Rasputin" (Isiah) to guide him into the abyss figured he'd just do it himself this time.
What befuddles me is what did Melo see besides the bright lights of broadway that would have him believe that he'd find a successful on court situation? Did he think he'd attract other players and create a sort of "Heatles" knockoff but with CP3 and some other super friend? Did the CAA mafia think it could make it happen?
There is enough blame to go around from Melo's empty Rolodex, to Dolan's enabling, and La La's booty. Bottom line is not Walsh failing to move up a spot, but never falling far enough and trading picks as part of a lame decision making process.
Walsh execution of his plan was poor. The amount of assets he gave away to execute his plan. Had he executed properly we would have still had assets after the Melo trade.
Melo saw Amare and Billups and thought he would be apart of a big 3.
But even if Melo's decision wasnt pure, Its up to the Knicks brass to decide if the juice is worth the sqeeze. Caclulate fit amoung coaches and players. Formulate a plan of action going forward on how they wanted to build the team etc.
meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:That has always been speculated but when the new gm hires his college roommate to be the associate head coach in charge of defense, amnesties your point guard, signs a marquee traditional center and gives you Toney Douglas to run your system for the last year of the deal the writing is on the wall.
Imcredible addition to a thread on Melo.
Yeah sometimes the details around the situation are important. But who needs details if it doesn't fit with what you hope happened.
LOL - your denial is about as pathetic as your weak attemlts at deflection.
So you thought Grunwald was all in with Dantoni? What made you come to that conclusion?
Nah, I just think you are/were all in woth Melo. I also think D'Antoni had proved he can win and that his system works at least to the extent of seeing success in the playoffs, Melo has proved exactly nothing, but yeah it's everyone else's fault as usual.
I was never a D'antoni fan but that team was set up for the next guy after D'Antoni that year. You don't give D'Antoni no point guard to work with. Also, he had come out and said that he did not like playing with a traditional center because they slowed the game down and the Knicks amnestied his point guard to sign Tyson Chandler. The writing was on the wall. I thought it was a better look when he said he did what was best for the team when he resigned with pay for the final month and a half of the season. The team rallied and went 18-6 after he left.
mlby1215 wrote:Looks like Phil is a victim too. 
It must be Dolan.arkrud wrote:Melo and MDA are both victims of the dysfunctional organization led by inept mindless owner and Gulag-like bureaucracy.
But both of them choose money over winning and greatness. Both of them shoot themselves in the foot and wasted years of their life for nothing but $$$.
MDA moved on and he has long way to go but Melo stuck and his time with bbal is coming to the end.
Knicks fans get nothing but frustration and broken promises.
Still many are fixated on looking for scapegoat in Melo, MDA, or whatever even if it is painfully clear whom to blame.
And the real reason of all this past, current, and future sucking is not going anywhere.
Phil is a man of his own.
He was looking for the challenge. He get it and also get paid for it a lot.
Will he do good about it or write it off in his future book as a mistake and failure on his part to understand what he getting into?
This will be seen soon enough.
ESOMKnicks wrote:How come Dolan's Rangers are not similarly screwed up?Although I have just looked up at how they have been doing and understand that the timing for raising this question is unfortunate.
Rangers are fine.
They have team which will contend for years to come.
The Cup is a big luck on top of good team.
They may get in in 15 try or so when all planets will line up.
They are doing good because Dolan lost all interest in hockey long time back.
Too much fundamentals and too much traditions to make it a corporate show.
meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:CrushAlot wrote:That has always been speculated but when the new gm hires his college roommate to be the associate head coach in charge of defense, amnesties your point guard, signs a marquee traditional center and gives you Toney Douglas to run your system for the last year of the deal the writing is on the wall.
Imcredible addition to a thread on Melo.
Yeah sometimes the details around the situation are important. But who needs details if it doesn't fit with what you hope happened.
LOL - your denial is about as pathetic as your weak attemlts at deflection.
So you thought Grunwald was all in with Dantoni? What made you come to that conclusion?
Nah, I just think you are/were all in woth Melo. I also think D'Antoni had proved he can win and that his system works at least to the extent of seeing success in the playoffs, Melo has proved exactly nothing, but yeah it's everyone else's fault as usual.
Ummm....you were saying? No Parker, Leonard and LA with a bumb knee and Dantoni could not figure out a way to win. MDA supporters just have what cpus of been scenarios to fall back on. This will be yet another one.
newyorknewyork wrote:Nalod wrote:Walsh had a vision and a plan. Perhaps Lebron had blessed MDA and it would be considered as part of him coming.
The lure and instant formation of the "Heatles" under Riley was a better option.
Starphuchers we are, we go get Amare and then Melo. Walsh was neutered by then and enter the lost years of Grunwald (good man BTW) but with limited access to assets what was is what became.Since its all about blame, its about Dolan having lost "Rasputin" (Isiah) to guide him into the abyss figured he'd just do it himself this time.
What befuddles me is what did Melo see besides the bright lights of broadway that would have him believe that he'd find a successful on court situation? Did he think he'd attract other players and create a sort of "Heatles" knockoff but with CP3 and some other super friend? Did the CAA mafia think it could make it happen?
There is enough blame to go around from Melo's empty Rolodex, to Dolan's enabling, and La La's booty. Bottom line is not Walsh failing to move up a spot, but never falling far enough and trading picks as part of a lame decision making process.
Walsh execution of his plan was poor. The amount of assets he gave away to execute his plan. Had he executed properly we would have still had assets after the Melo trade.
Melo saw Amare and Billups and thought he would be apart of a big 3.
But even if Melo's decision wasnt pure, Its up to the Knicks brass to decide if the juice is worth the sqeeze. Caclulate fit amoung coaches and players. Formulate a plan of action going forward on how they wanted to build the team etc.
I don't blame Walsh for the poor execution. Very often we don't consider the directive the GM's are given by their owners. Ted Lanois of the Wiz stuck with Grunfeld because Earnie had insisted a young core needs veteran leadership to grow. He was right, and when they blended in some experienced talent they started to emerge. Nene was a big part of that as was moving on from McGee.
Earnie survived in part because he was doing what the owner wanted.
Walsh, like many don't always get to set the direction of the team. I have said this many times, its the owner who signs the checks and the 100million dollar contracts are no joke. This is why when you consider the influence of an owner, like Sterling in LA who did not spend until the team was debt free which was one reason they were awful for years among other elements. Bad Elements. Glen Taylor in Minny is notorious for meddling. he finally saw the light and bought back flip to install a plan and execute it.
Michael Heisley who owned the Grizz for years was not a good owner and struggled. When he decided to sell the team, he figured winning brings in more money and he finally spend some money and made them a good franchise and got a better price to sell. He had to trade Pau to make that happen.
Walsh didn't want melo. I can't blame him for Amare either. That is a move that Walsh never makes in Indy for many reasons, money being a big one but Pacers, while no chips were contenders for years. Walsh was shoved down Dolans throat and I believe was ordered to clear the cap for Lebron. When you do that, you have to give away assets.
Kharma is a B. D'Antoni was at what might be the pinnacle of his career, things were going great for him this year. Instead of taking the high road, MDA chooses to pile on Melo in an interview. He did this knowing that Anthony has gone through maybe the worst year of his personal and professional life, and MDA had one of his best.
fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KP
Melo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?
GustavBahler wrote:Kharma is a B. D'Antoni was at what might be the pinnacle of his career, things were going great for him this year. Instead of taking the high road, MDA chooses to pile on Melo in an interview. He did this knowing that Anthony has gone through maybe the worst year of his personal and professional life, and MDA had one of his best.
How exactly did he pile on melo? In the article he said Melo is a good guy and he still talks to him. All he said is that they wanted to play different styles and melo pretty much won out which was true.
Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KP
Melo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?
Whether it’s ignoring the numbers and defending isolation basketball, waving off the coach’s play call, or barely moving without the ball, there’s no way around it: Anthony hasn’t fully committed to the triangle offense.The fact that Anthony ranked No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus is all you need to know about his effort on defense.
http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/16/new-yo...Actually it seems Melo ended the year #420 out of 468! Rose was #441 
This is probably why I wrote so.
When a team loses, there is a reason and the players/coach/management often have something to do with it and have to be responsible with it. But how do we decide who should take the blame? It is about judgment and in general it can never be done objectively so I am not going to do that.
However, I just want to point out that we tend to put the blame on the one we dislike little bit more. It is just human nature. If a player or a coach should not take responsibility of losing then we think twice when we assume the management sometime has to. I am not saying Phil is good (or bad), I just think if a team wins and players/coaches get the most credits then when the team loses, they should get the most blame. 
arkrud wrote:mlby1215 wrote:Looks like Phil is a victim too. It must be Dolan.arkrud wrote:Melo and MDA are both victims of the dysfunctional organization led by inept mindless owner and Gulag-like bureaucracy.
But both of them choose money over winning and greatness. Both of them shoot themselves in the foot and wasted years of their life for nothing but $$$.
MDA moved on and he has long way to go but Melo stuck and his time with bbal is coming to the end.
Knicks fans get nothing but frustration and broken promises.
Still many are fixated on looking for scapegoat in Melo, MDA, or whatever even if it is painfully clear whom to blame.
And the real reason of all this past, current, and future sucking is not going anywhere.
Phil is a man of his own.
He was looking for the challenge. He get it and also get paid for it a lot.
Will he do good about it or write it off in his future book as a mistake and failure on his part to understand what he getting into?
This will be seen soon enough.
StarksEwing1 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Kharma is a B. D'Antoni was at what might be the pinnacle of his career, things were going great for him this year. Instead of taking the high road, MDA chooses to pile on Melo in an interview. He did this knowing that Anthony has gone through maybe the worst year of his personal and professional life, and MDA had one of his best.
How exactly did he pile on melo? In the article he said Melo is a good guy and he still talks to him. All he said is that they wanted to play different styles and melo pretty much won out which was true.
They have crossed paths on Olympic teams. We fans think its all about personalities. Its business.
MDA was at his contracts end. It was no big deal.
I don't think melo is all that out of sorts either. He has his health, his kids healthy and his marriage has been on the rocks for years. He has choices in life. Remember, "La La is married, Carmelo is not"!!
So why would be be upset with his marriage?
