Knicks · Melo dumped Dantoni (page 4)
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KPMelo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?Whether it’s ignoring the numbers and defending isolation basketball, waving off the coach’s play call, or barely moving without the ball, there’s no way around it: Anthony hasn’t fully committed to the triangle offense.http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/16/new-yo...The fact that Anthony ranked No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus is all you need to know about his effort on defense.
Actually it seems Melo ended the year #420 out of 468! Rose was #441
And that's half of the entire cap.
mlby1215 wrote:This is probably why I wrote so.When a team loses, there is a reason and the players/coach/management often have something to do with it and have to be responsible with it. But how do we decide who should take the blame? It is about judgment and in general it can never be done objectively so I am not going to do that.
However, I just want to point out that we tend to put the blame on the one we dislike little bit more. It is just human nature. If a player or a coach should not take responsibility of losing then we think twice when we assume the management sometime has to. I am not saying Phil is good (or bad), I just think if a team wins and players/coaches get the most credits then when the team loses, they should get the most blame.
There's no reason to assign blame at all. I like Phil's approach of simply identifying what might work better and what empirically hasn't worked. In Phil's presser he didn't "blame" Melo - he simply said that it wasn't working and that if Melo's [emphatic public] pseudo-demand was that Phil should commit the team to yet another Melo-centric run at "winning", Phil was recalibrating a strategy that didn't include a Melo-centric strategy. ERGO, Melo should consider other options.
The problem with blame games is that the baby is always thrown out with the bath water.
And the difference between continuous improvement and the blame game is a subtle one. By speaking about Melo in particular, it can be taken as a slam instead of as a process point that's exhausted its cost-effective potential to improve.
By recalibrating the answer to the question of "How do the Knicks get better?", one of the potential answers HAS TO BE to trade Melo for a different set of more complementary assets. A potential answer must take into consideration how far the team is from winning a ring and how much time Melo has to contribute at the level required two, three, or four years down the road. Taking Melo's desires into consideration the burning question is, "Where can Melo fulfill his desire to win a ring, NY or elsewhere?"
In a blame game, its little more than a finger-pointing exercise that is nothing more than judgmental. Some set of reasonable or unreasonable expectations has not been fulfilled, therefore... its *that* person's fault.
If the metric for success is going to predominantly be wins and losses then naturally the players have to take responsibility for conforming to and performing to the best of their ability what's being asked of them qualified by the quality of the talent pool. This is simply a minimum criteria for examination. This is what they are paid to do. And this doesn't change if we broaden the definition of success to include quality of play, maturity, year-to-year general team talent threshold, or whatever.
In fact there's a very steep ladder to climb to claim that a VP, President, or Owner are more responsible that the players and coaches.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KPMelo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?Whether it’s ignoring the numbers and defending isolation basketball, waving off the coach’s play call, or barely moving without the ball, there’s no way around it: Anthony hasn’t fully committed to the triangle offense.http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/16/new-yo...The fact that Anthony ranked No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus is all you need to know about his effort on defense.
Actually it seems Melo ended the year #420 out of 468! Rose was #441
And that's half of the entire cap.
You guys are focused on the wrong thing. You need "star" players to win. Its the job of their teammates to play defense and keep the plus-minus shit straight. The problem with the Knicks is Phil's tweeting, Dolan's meddling, Jeff's coaching, bad roster, not enough talent, bad media, bad fans, no one to "carry the load". Instead of that you are asking these guys to play defense? C'mon man. Isn't it enough that they "sacrificed" their point totals per game for a miserable 27 million a year?
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KPMelo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?Whether it’s ignoring the numbers and defending isolation basketball, waving off the coach’s play call, or barely moving without the ball, there’s no way around it: Anthony hasn’t fully committed to the triangle offense.http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/16/new-yo...The fact that Anthony ranked No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus is all you need to know about his effort on defense.
Actually it seems Melo ended the year #420 out of 468! Rose was #441
And that's half of the entire cap.
Phil had to be convinced in his new approach after watching the Spurs Defense! I was glad to hear Phil say his scouts will focus on On Ball Defenders from now on. Kawhi, Green and Simmons displayed some serious on ball and help D!!!
nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KPMelo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?Whether it’s ignoring the numbers and defending isolation basketball, waving off the coach’s play call, or barely moving without the ball, there’s no way around it: Anthony hasn’t fully committed to the triangle offense.http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/16/new-yo...The fact that Anthony ranked No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus is all you need to know about his effort on defense.
Actually it seems Melo ended the year #420 out of 468! Rose was #441
And that's half of the entire cap.Phil had to be convinced in his new approach after watching the Spurs Defense! I was glad to hear Phil say his scouts will focus on On Ball Defenders from now on. Kawhi, Green and Simmons displayed some serious on ball and help D!!!
Phil has a new approach now?
"The journey to build this team for the upcoming season and beyond continues," Jackson said. "We have added players with this move that will fit right in to our system while maintaining future flexibility."That is from when he traded Tyson.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:The knicks entire roster is trash..top to bottom..except for KPMelo didnt make his annual all star trip but I wouldnt call him trash. Overpaid maybe
Didn't you post that he was 418th out of 418 (or something like that) on defense? Combine that with shooting worse from the field than the worst team in the league, and what are you left with?Whether it’s ignoring the numbers and defending isolation basketball, waving off the coach’s play call, or barely moving without the ball, there’s no way around it: Anthony hasn’t fully committed to the triangle offense.http://dailyknicks.com/2017/04/16/new-yo...The fact that Anthony ranked No. 418 in the NBA in Defensive Real Plus-Minus is all you need to know about his effort on defense.
Actually it seems Melo ended the year #420 out of 468! Rose was #441
And that's half of the entire cap.Phil had to be convinced in his new approach after watching the Spurs Defense! I was glad to hear Phil say his scouts will focus on On Ball Defenders from now on. Kawhi, Green and Simmons displayed some serious on ball and help D!!!
Phil has a new approach now?"The journey to build this team for the upcoming season and beyond continues," Jackson said. "We have added players with this move that will fit right in to our system while maintaining future flexibility."That is from when he traded Tyson.
The 3rd Accidental New approach...
It is little bit off-topic (and long) but I agree with that Melo has to be traded. However, I don't think we would get better in this way. It is quite possible we will be worse, and a motivated Melo in another team would do everything he could to prove that Knicks management sucks in the way that he starts playing the right way. Yeah, it is very sad that the only few things you can motivate Melo is about power struggle.
Phil talked a lot about culture, systems and teamwork, and I am pretty sure lot of us didn't truly believe in it. It is not that we don't believe in him, we just do not think basketballs can be won in this way. they would argue "If it is true, why would every nba champ team has multiple all-stars?" To many of us. Culture, systems and teamwork are just fancy words you could use when you win and you have talents, like the word "determination", "killer sense", and "willpower".
If (1) talents are very important, (2) Melo is a great talent and (3)I would never believe in tank (for unrelated reasons), why would I still think we should trade him?
It is because Melo is too good offensively and he alone would change the system. As long as he is on the floor, players will tend to change the way they play in order to cooperate with him. It is just like OKC and Westbrook, he is so good that he is the offense of OKC and the offense of OKC is him.
But Westbrook could not play 48 mins and Melo surely cannot. When Westbrook was on the bench, the OKC offense took a rest as well. It is not that other players suck (while they may not be very good), it is just that they always play a certain way for 39 mins and then of course they have a little clue in other 9 mins because they don't have a framework to fall back on.
This is why Phil really wants Bball system, triangle or not, and this is why Spur could win even without its best player and its starting PG. They have a system, and they did not panic.
When Melo is here, players rely on him rather than the system to score. He is the offense, and he changes everything. Melo is just that good. When he runs around, then the defense have to change as well. (too bad he does not like to run around)
On the court, Melo is not bad. He is too good and that is why he has to go this time. He is too old to waste time here, and every Knicks player has to learn the system and embrace it totally.
fwk00 wrote:There's no reason to assign blame at all. I like Phil's approach of simply identifying what might work better and what empirically hasn't worked. In Phil's presser he didn't "blame" Melo - he simply said that it wasn't working and that if Melo's [emphatic public] pseudo-demand was that Phil should commit the team to yet another Melo-centric run at "winning", Phil was recalibrating a strategy that didn't include a Melo-centric strategy. ERGO, Melo should consider other options.The problem with blame games is that the baby is always thrown out with the bath water.
And the difference between continuous improvement and the blame game is a subtle one. By speaking about Melo in particular, it can be taken as a slam instead of as a process point that's exhausted its cost-effective potential to improve.
By recalibrating the answer to the question of "How do the Knicks get better?", one of the potential answers HAS TO BE to trade Melo for a different set of more complementary assets. A potential answer must take into consideration how far the team is from winning a ring and how much time Melo has to contribute at the level required two, three, or four years down the road. Taking Melo's desires into consideration the burning question is, "Where can Melo fulfill his desire to win a ring, NY or elsewhere?"
In a blame game, its little more than a finger-pointing exercise that is nothing more than judgmental. Some set of reasonable or unreasonable expectations has not been fulfilled, therefore... its *that* person's fault.
If the metric for success is going to predominantly be wins and losses then naturally the players have to take responsibility for conforming to and performing to the best of their ability what's being asked of them qualified by the quality of the talent pool. This is simply a minimum criteria for examination. This is what they are paid to do. And this doesn't change if we broaden the definition of success to include quality of play, maturity, year-to-year general team talent threshold, or whatever.
In fact there's a very steep ladder to climb to claim that a VP, President, or Owner are more responsible that the players and coaches.