Knicks · RealGM: Rival Execs: Phil Jackson Harming Carmelo Anthony's Trade Value (page 2)

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

Bonn1997 wrote:

Chandler wrote:This is sooo retarded already; regurgitated criticisms

Phil is doing this because he's calling Melo out . Melo made the point that he doesn't want to stick around if he's not wanted here

It stands to reason that Phil has told him, in private, that he's better off elsewhere, and that Melo declined. My own suspicions is that it was a blow to his ego when teams weren't tripping over themselves to get him

Phil has upped the ante' by now publicly saying Melo is not part of the long term picture and he's doing it as politely as he can under the circumstances

I agree it would be better if none of this needed to be public but c'mon already. Isn't the situation obvious.

Melo is still a very talented picture; the biggest impediment is his contract and the problems it brings in the age of a (broken) salary cap

If that's the case, what a shitty, dysfunctional approach. After the bold part, a well-run organization would just accept that they're stuck with the player they gave the NTC to for 2 seasons IMO or continue to try to change the player's mind privately. They wouldn't try to change the player's mind by devaluing him publicly. This just makes us look even more ridiculous and undesirable to future players.

I suspect there are huge untold stories on both sides. we can debate whether the NTC was dumb idea forever. It happened. How both parties behaved this year is also far from perfect.

Personally, I think if Melo tried to be last year's Melo, Dadmelo or whatever, we'd be in a different boat and things would have proceeded as you suggest

My suspicion is that there was some serious dysfunction behind the scenes, which Phil has hinted at, and that crossed a line where the team felt he was undermining, disloyal, etc. I also suspect Dolan was aware of this and that's why he was public about supporting Phil etc.

If I were in charge, and if my above suspicions were correct, I would have just had him ride pine until his play and attitude improved. That failing, I would have then done what Phil is doing now.

fwk00 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Nothing good comes from talking down a player you're trying to trade, with an NTC. Nothing.

disagree. it might be the only way to get him off our books

I think so too.

For whatever reason, I think Melo has been playing a power game with Phil since mid-season or so. Phil has repeatedly said that he's spoken with Melo, that he attends practice to be available, and that he's contacted Melo both in person and using text messages.

Melo has denied that these things have happened. Phil is a no BS, straight shooter - why would we disbelieve him. Why would Melo be the exception of ALL the stars Phil has had official contact with be different? I think its because Melo heard something new to his experience - "ENOUGH. NO MORE!"

Phil also laments that news of mid-season trade talks leaked to the press. The Knicks have been very good at keeping confidentiality - methinks the "leak" came from a Melo-centric source.

So, IMO, when Melo shyly acted bewildered about what the Knicks might be thinking, he knew exactly what they were thinking. And so by publicly putting Phil on the spot by insisting over and over, "I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE KNICKS PLAN IS?" - he was not asking anything. He was insisting Phil say, "OH, its all about you Melo - nod, wink - you can keep F'n off while we lose because of that magic NTC."

That kind of ultimatum stance certainly opened the door for what Phil has been saying publicly. If Melo was going to publicly insist that he was innocently unaware of what Phil had in mind, Phil had every right to spell it out in public.

In the beginning of the season Melo was insulted that he was not ranked top 15. He is very good, but he thinks he's way better than he is. He wants to be Lebron-esque; build a team around me, let me play quasi-GM about players; and the ultimate power -- get a coach fired.

oops

Chandler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Nothing good comes from talking down a player you're trying to trade, with an NTC. Nothing.

disagree. it might be the only way to get him off our books

I think so too.

For whatever reason, I think Melo has been playing a power game with Phil since mid-season or so. Phil has repeatedly said that he's spoken with Melo, that he attends practice to be available, and that he's contacted Melo both in person and using text messages.

Melo has denied that these things have happened. Phil is a no BS, straight shooter - why would we disbelieve him. Why would Melo be the exception of ALL the stars Phil has had official contact with be different? I think its because Melo heard something new to his experience - "ENOUGH. NO MORE!"

Phil also laments that news of mid-season trade talks leaked to the press. The Knicks have been very good at keeping confidentiality - methinks the "leak" came from a Melo-centric source.

So, IMO, when Melo shyly acted bewildered about what the Knicks might be thinking, he knew exactly what they were thinking. And so by publicly putting Phil on the spot by insisting over and over, "I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE KNICKS PLAN IS?" - he was not asking anything. He was insisting Phil say, "OH, its all about you Melo - nod, wink - you can keep F'n off while we lose because of that magic NTC."

That kind of ultimatum stance certainly opened the door for what Phil has been saying publicly. If Melo was going to publicly insist that he was innocently unaware of what Phil had in mind, Phil had every right to spell it out in public.

In the beginning of the season Melo was insulted that he was not ranked top 15. He is very good, but he thinks he's way better than he is. He wants to be Lebron-esque; build a team around me, let me play quasi-GM about players; and the ultimate power -- get a coach fired.

oops

Melo is like the fellow in the sneaker commercial who buys the size 17 sneakers and thinks he fills em up. He ain't all that.

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

It's not the Seller that dictates a players value, it's the BUYERS! There are more buyers now than at Mid Season. Teams know Melo can give them an offensive boost and they will be willing to Up their offers. Teams in contention want to add one of the very few players that has known scoring ability.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

It's not the Seller that dictates a players value, it's the BUYERS! There are more buyers now than at Mid Season. Teams know Melo can give them an offensive boost and they will be willing to Up their offers. Teams in contention want to add one of the very few players that has known scoring ability.

to a certain degree, yeah, but with The NTC, a ridiculous contract on its own and wanting to be on a contender, the options are very limited a best. Now if melo just wants to gtfo of dodge, then that gives more options, at this point he hasn't even said he willing to waive his NTC, so who knows what the hell he's thinking

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.
If there is just one suitor, they will tell PHil to shove it up his ass.
If there are three teams that are bidding then it will raise the price. Just like anything else.
The other thing is I would guess is that Melo has to approve the destination which starts with his list. He gets final I would also guess because he should be concerned about the team left after a trade.
Melo's Agent should be involved in the process as well and perhaps it then gets sold to Phil.

Tonite is the first step of any process. The playoff results might determine which team feels like it needs him if any. Then the draft itself. Free agency will also tell a tale.
When the teams have its assets in place, then it can formulate trades.

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

It's not the Seller that dictates a players value, it's the BUYERS! There are more buyers now than at Mid Season. Teams know Melo can give them an offensive boost and they will be willing to Up their offers. Teams in contention want to add one of the very few players that has known scoring ability.

to a certain degree, yeah, but with The NTC, a ridiculous contract on its own and wanting to be on a contender, the options are very limited a best. Now if melo just wants to gtfo of dodge, then that gives more options, at this point he hasn't even said he willing to waive his NTC, so who knows what the hell he's thinking

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

It's not the Seller that dictates a players value, it's the BUYERS! There are more buyers now than at Mid Season. Teams know Melo can give them an offensive boost and they will be willing to Up their offers. Teams in contention want to add one of the very few players that has known scoring ability.

to a certain degree, yeah, but with The NTC, a ridiculous contract on its own and wanting to be on a contender, the options are very limited a best. Now if melo just wants to gtfo of dodge, then that gives more options, at this point he hasn't even said he willing to waive his NTC, so who knows what the hell he's thinking

Melo is gonna waive the NTC based on the teams he's given Phil already! Melo's Agents have no doubt talked to other teams to gauge interest. Back channel communications are always going on.

the nightmare scenario is that no contender/winning program wants him at all -- you can run down the list and easily make that case.

As for other GMs talking about value they know exactly what the value is and what they have to give up they come calling they are the desperate ones. And they will come calling that is for sure. Whether Phil like the deal is up to him but make no mistake there is no desperation on the Knicks part they know their direction they are going in.

Chandler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

It's not the Seller that dictates a players value, it's the BUYERS! There are more buyers now than at Mid Season. Teams know Melo can give them an offensive boost and they will be willing to Up their offers. Teams in contention want to add one of the very few players that has known scoring ability.

to a certain degree, yeah, but with The NTC, a ridiculous contract on its own and wanting to be on a contender, the options are very limited a best. Now if melo just wants to gtfo of dodge, then that gives more options, at this point he hasn't even said he willing to waive his NTC, so who knows what the hell he's thinking

Melo is gonna waive the NTC based on the teams he's given Phil already! Melo's Agents have no doubt talked to other teams to gauge interest. Back channel communications are always going on.

the nightmare scenario is that no contender/winning program wants him at all -- you can run down the list and easily make that case.

Meh! I think you'd be surprised at just how many teams want Melo. They all know adding Melo would give them a big boost over what they have now in the Playoff Team Arms Race!

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.

So when you're buying a home, do you say to the seller, "Please tell me what the lowest offer you'll accept is"? Of course, not. There's a difference between what Phil wants and the minimum he'll require.

When your buying a home, the price is listed. Seller sets the price.
If its on the market for while you drop the price. If there are multiple bids, the price goes up.

If Melo was a house, he will be worth more to some than others, but if nobody wants him, the price goes down.

Bonn1997 wrote:How could it not hurt his trade value?

What trade value?? Why on earth would anyone trade anything of value for low IQ, no defense one dimensional chucker? I mean it's a very expensive way to get your coach fired but other than that what do they have to gain?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Chandler wrote:This is sooo retarded already; regurgitated criticisms

Phil is doing this because he's calling Melo out . Melo made the point that he doesn't want to stick around if he's not wanted here

It stands to reason that Phil has told him, in private, that he's better off elsewhere, and that Melo declined. My own suspicions is that it was a blow to his ego when teams weren't tripping over themselves to get him

Phil has upped the ante' by now publicly saying Melo is not part of the long term picture and he's doing it as politely as he can under the circumstances

I agree it would be better if none of this needed to be public but c'mon already. Isn't the situation obvious.

Melo is still a very talented picture; the biggest impediment is his contract and the problems it brings in the age of a (broken) salary cap

If that's the case, what a shitty, dysfunctional approach. After the bold part, a well-run organization would just accept that they're stuck with the player they gave the NTC to for 2 seasons IMO or continue to try to change the player's mind privately. They wouldn't try to change the player's mind by devaluing him publicly. This just makes us look even more ridiculous and undesirable to future players.

You want this self serving selfish jerk around KP and the kids for another two years? Players come here for money, not for looks.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

This. What Phil did is far from best practice.

Shaming was needed to motivate. The writing is on the wall as he said, the question was would he respond in kind.
If need be, repost the "insults".
Whats insulting is thinking his value would be predicated on Phil's comments. Anyone video coordinator can pick his game apart far more than any words Phil has.

He said melo should WANT to leave.

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

and for being the #four hundred and whatever worse defender in the league, and for posting career lows in various stats... we can do this all day.

When teams are deciding if or what they want to offer for Melo what are the factors? What Melo does on the court? Or what Phil Jackson says? I mean the suggestions here are beyond stupid.

When deciding whether they want Melo, they'll look at what Melo does on the court.
When deciding what to offer for Melo, they'll try to figure out how much Phil will demand in a trade and make sure they don't offer anything more. This is where what Phil says matters.

They won't "TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH PHIL WILL DEMAND"......They will just ask Phil what he wants.

So when you're buying a home, do you say to the seller, "Please tell me what the lowest offer you'll accept is"? Of course, not. There's a difference between what Phil wants and the minimum he'll require.

When your buying a home, the price is listed. Seller sets the price.
If its on the market for while you drop the price. If there are multiple bids, the price goes up.

If Melo was a house, he will be worth more to some than others, but if nobody wants him, the price goes down.

Thanks, finally someone who understands simple economics

All I know is Phil let Melo know the direction of the team. It would serve Melo best to join another team to chase a ring and establish himself as one of the better players in NBA history.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:Melo turning 33 hurts his trade value... case closed.

IF YOU have no use for a car, and need money desperately, I don't care if it's a 100k car, im going to low ball you and give you $50k cash.

Phil didn't say anything really negative about melo, he just makes it seem like he has no use for him at all....IMO that was the devalue part,

If he at least said he would be ok on keeping him in a more reduce role if he wants to stay and play out his contract, but base on his time line and where the franchise is at today, he maybe better off playing for a more serious contender. That to me would sound so much better

It's not the Seller that dictates a players value, it's the BUYERS! There are more buyers now than at Mid Season. Teams know Melo can give them an offensive boost and they will be willing to Up their offers. Teams in contention want to add one of the very few players that has known scoring ability.

to a certain degree, yeah, but with The NTC, a ridiculous contract on its own and wanting to be on a contender, the options are very limited a best. Now if melo just wants to gtfo of dodge, then that gives more options, at this point he hasn't even said he willing to waive his NTC, so who knows what the hell he's thinking

Melo is gonna waive the NTC based on the teams he's given Phil already! Melo's Agents have no doubt talked to other teams to gauge interest. Back channel communications are always going on.

Who have you confirm this with, you spoke to phil or anyone in melo's camp, or are you just hoping and praying that this is the case