Knicks · Knicks draft plan: Pick The dirty dozen (page 1)

Talent, potential and measurables are fine but they often obscure things like toughness and other intangibles.

Tough guys
• Do the dirty work on both sides of the ball.
• Are already tough inside, they don't need coaches to bring it out of them.
• Get the most out of their talent.
• Want to win above everything else.

First round plans
I've got no problem picking 8 ,as we're not going to get the so called top guys, forcing us to dig deeper in player evaluations. I found the recent coverage on clarence gaines encouraging and my best case scenario on draft night is for his unorthodox scouting to combine with some bolder maneuvering by the knicks front office. With 3 picks and a fair chance with a decent asset like KOQ to dangle for another one, this team can expect to improve and equally as important, not swing and miss in the lottery.

Of the "talent" guys who might be there at 8, the only one I could see as a can't miss is Monk. ( Fox is our guy but he's gone thanks to that fateful final week). I don't know if Monk is tough or not ( he definitely has big stones), or if NY is going to eat him up, or if is he particularly likable, but I do know he can shoot the hell out of it and that's good enough for the 8th spot. Isaac, Smith , Frank Nitty all have enough missing in the games, or heads, to not gamble on that high, and none strike me as guys who are particularly gritty players.

Frank is the hardest one to pass on, as he seems like a good kid and you can imagine him having his defensive moments at the garden. But how many pure ball hawks at PG are there in the NBA right now , who have questionable first steps, handle, shot, and seem to be lacking that alpha dog personality? Please don't let the triangle blind you. For the knicks to take him, they would have had to seen more than what Frank has shown so far and I'd be happy to be wrong about him.

If monk isn't there, the next best case is to trade back (if you can) and get as many tough guys as possible. If you can't, then forget the rankings and perceived value at a particular spot , make whatever moves you need to make, and pull those triggers. This is where Clarence comes in. He's on his own wavelength. Stick to his board , Phil and you may not get run out of town.

Who's tough in this draft that we can reasonably target?

Tier 1: Frank Mason, OG, donovan mitchell
Tier 2: Justin jackson, josh hart, Semi, jordan bell
Tier 3: derrick white, Sindarious, Caleb, juwan evans,deonte burton

I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

lol oh man that some nail biting stuff there go gaines go

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

The above strategy and many players on his list is pretty much exactly what I have envisioned in terms of what we should do. I have said lets get best value for 8 doesnt mean we need to pick 8 Ill also agree with him on Monk as Ive come full circle--the bottom line is Monk can shoot nd that is a big time NBA skill

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

The above strategy and many players on his list is pretty much exactly what I have envisioned in terms of what we should do. I have said lets get best value for 8 doesnt mean we need to pick 8 Ill also agree with him on Monk as Ive come full circle--the bottom line is Monk can shoot nd that is a big time NBA skill

the only thing that will derail Monk from being a good NBA player is he gets hurt. He posted the same #s Curry did at the same age. He's a shooter/slasher who can rain 3s and has a 42 inch vert and a good head on his shoulders. At the very worse he's going to be a guy who can give you scoring and shooting. I mean the Knicks are not so far along where they need to worry too much about how perfectly he fits, they need impact talent. Monk surely has that but I am leaning towards Dennis Smith JR but there is a good chance its one or the other as one is prob off the board at 8

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss
2015-stanley Johnson
2014-nic stauskus
2013-terrence ross
2012-cadwell pope
2011-brandon McKnight
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss
2015-stanley Johnson
2014-nic stauskus
2013-terrence ross
2012-cadwell pope
2011-brandon McKnight
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

that doesnt mean the trend will automatically continue

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss
2015-stanley Johnson
2014-nic stauskus
2013-terrence ross
2012-cadwell pope
2011-brandon McKnight
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

that doesnt mean the trend will automatically continue

I don't think it means it will continue either - however - GMs tend to draft the guy that was at the top of mock drafts but then fell, a la Jordan Hill. I believe the ONLY reason we drafted him was because at the beginning of the year he was a top 3 pick on draft express and nbadraft.net

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Reminds me of the 1996 draft. If the Knicks had the 8th pick they would've had access to Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash or Jermaine O'Neal. They did have picks 18, 19, and 21 and ended up with John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae Jones, meaning they pretty much ended up with nothing.

I'll take one high pick over a quantity of low first round picks every single time.

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

The above strategy and many players on his list is pretty much exactly what I have envisioned in terms of what we should do. I have said lets get best value for 8 doesnt mean we need to pick 8 Ill also agree with him on Monk as Ive come full circle--the bottom line is Monk can shoot nd that is a big time NBA skill

Monk can shoot, plus his athletic ability will allow him to create shots at the next level. He's fit for the NBA game. Hope he lasts, but i doubt it.

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Reminds me of the 1996 draft. If the Knicks had the 8th pick they would've had access to Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash or Jermaine O'Neal. They did have picks 18, 19, and 21 and ended up with John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae Jones, meaning they pretty much ended up with nothing.

I'll take one high pick over a quantity of low first round picks every single time.

This isn't the NFL. Trading down rarely works out in the NBA. I still wouldn't have too much a problem, but it's to far out to forecast who will be available. I'd keep the lines of communication open and see if such a trade makes sense on draft night.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss - very good player
2015-stanley Johnson - Very good player. Myles Turner also available.
2014-nic stauskus - weak draft but Saric was still available
2013-terrence ross - Drummond was on board and picked next
2012-cadwell pope - CJ McCollum was picked 10. He's a stud. Giannis Adetokoubo was available. Hear of him? Steve Adams...
2011-brandon McKnight - Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard were on the board. Heard of them?
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

Im sorry but this post proves what? So far in those drafts you listed there has been all star talent in almost every draft. If the 8th pick stunk it was because the team picked wrong, NOT because "8th has produce role players for the most part"

Its on the Knicks to pick the right player. They have drafted well. This should be a good addition.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss - very good player
2015-stanley Johnson - Very good player. Myles Turner also available.
2014-nic stauskus - weak draft but Saric was still available
2013-terrence ross - Drummond was on board and picked next
2012-cadwell pope - CJ McCollum was picked 10. He's a stud. Giannis Adetokoubo was available. Hear of him? Steve Adams...
2011-brandon McKnight - Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard were on the board. Heard of them?
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

Im sorry but this post proves what? So far in those drafts you listed there has been all star talent in almost every draft. If the 8th pick stunk it was because the team picked wrong, NOT because "8th has produce role players for the most part"

Its on the Knicks to pick the right player. They have drafted well. This should be a good addition.

+1

I get what this guy is saying. If we can get a bunch of high quality role players--team players--the cumulative sum in a team game may over ride the "swing and miss" mentality. Hes got names of many older players who are mature in game know their roles have been educated play 2 way games.

And I agree with him on Monk--Monk HAS WARTS no doubt about that. He ran out of gas the last 1/3 of games(when it counted) did not rebound well was only a fair defender but at the end of the day the kid can really shoot it. No other guy will show they can show they can shoot it like monk around 8 from the G position. After that--trade down--heck trade down even a few spots and pick up a 1st rounder next year. Im not sure about Frank N either. Then who else is there?? We would need one of Fox tatum or Monk to come to 8 and it might not happen.

And if it doesnt round up good team players--we need a lot of them anyway. They can grow together.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Reminds me of the 1996 draft. If the Knicks had the 8th pick they would've had access to Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash or Jermaine O'Neal. They did have picks 18, 19, and 21 and ended up with John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae Jones, meaning they pretty much ended up with nothing.

I'll take one high pick over a quantity of low first round picks every single time.

This isn't the NFL. Trading down rarely works out in the NBA. I still wouldn't have too much a problem, but it's to far out to forecast who will be available. I'd keep the lines of communication open and see if such a trade makes sense on draft night.

Nets traded down from #7 (Eddie Griffin) for #13(Richard Jefferson), #18(Jason Collins), #23(Brandon Armstrong)

Jefferson proved to be the better NBA player alone. But other players available for Nets to draft around 13-23 = Zach Randolph, Brendon Haywood, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Jamal Tinsley, Toney Parker, Gilbert Arenas.

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss - very good player
2015-stanley Johnson - Very good player. Myles Turner also available.
2014-nic stauskus - weak draft but Saric was still available
2013-terrence ross - Drummond was on board and picked next
2012-cadwell pope - CJ McCollum was picked 10. He's a stud. Giannis Adetokoubo was available. Hear of him? Steve Adams...
2011-brandon McKnight - Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard were on the board. Heard of them?
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

Im sorry but this post proves what? So far in those drafts you listed there has been all star talent in almost every draft. If the 8th pick stunk it was because the team picked wrong, NOT because "8th has produce role players for the most part"

Its on the Knicks to pick the right player. They have drafted well. This should be a good addition.

+1

So basically every year there has been a star player picked almost immediately after 8. We just have to find who that player is and pick him at 8.

rpknicks wrote:
Talent, potential and measurables are fine but they often obscure things like toughness and other intangibles.

Tough guys
• Do the dirty work on both sides of the ball.
• Are already tough inside, they don't need coaches to bring it out of them.
• Get the most out of their talent.
• Want to win above everything else.

First round plans
I've got no problem picking 8 ,as we're not going to get the so called top guys, forcing us to dig deeper in player evaluations. I found the recent coverage on clarence gaines encouraging and my best case scenario on draft night is for his unorthodox scouting to combine with some bolder maneuvering by the knicks front office. With 3 picks and a fair chance with a decent asset like KOQ to dangle for another one, this team can expect to improve and equally as important, not swing and miss in the lottery.

Of the "talent" guys who might be there at 8, the only one I could see as a can't miss is Monk. ( Fox is our guy but he's gone thanks to that fateful final week). I don't know if Monk is tough or not ( he definitely has big stones), or if NY is going to eat him up, or if is he particularly likable, but I do know he can shoot the hell out of it and that's good enough for the 8th spot. Isaac, Smith , Frank Nitty all have enough missing in the games, or heads, to not gamble on that high, and none strike me as guys who are particularly gritty players.

Frank is the hardest one to pass on, as he seems like a good kid and you can imagine him having his defensive moments at the garden. But how many pure ball hawks at PG are there in the NBA right now , who have questionable first steps, handle, shot, and seem to be lacking that alpha dog personality? Please don't let the triangle blind you. For the knicks to take him, they would have had to seen more than what Frank has shown so far and I'd be happy to be wrong about him.

If monk isn't there, the next best case is to trade back (if you can) and get as many tough guys as possible. If you can't, then forget the rankings and perceived value at a particular spot , make whatever moves you need to make, and pull those triggers. This is where Clarence comes in. He's on his own wavelength. Stick to his board , Phil and you may not get run out of town.

Who's tough in this draft that we can reasonably target?

Tier 1: Frank Mason, OG, donovan mitchell
Tier 2: Justin jackson, josh hart, Semi, jordan bell
Tier 3: derrick white, Sindarious, Caleb, juwan evans,deonte burton

Monk hasn't displayed that he is willing to do any of the dirty work that you described though. Isaac is a better prospect then Monk, Smith is as well. Monk has to develop better handle, ability to create, ability to defend, rebound. And only has a 6'3 wingspan. Monk does bring immediate NBA skills in shooting and athleticism while we hope he can developed so many other aspect of his game.

This franchise needs a culture change of effort every night and every play, dirty work and intangibles. And it cant be left up to the role players to do this. It has to be from the *talent* as well.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss - very good player
2015-stanley Johnson - Very good player. Myles Turner also available.
2014-nic stauskus - weak draft but Saric was still available
2013-terrence ross - Drummond was on board and picked next
2012-cadwell pope - CJ McCollum was picked 10. He's a stud. Giannis Adetokoubo was available. Hear of him? Steve Adams...
2011-brandon McKnight - Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard were on the board. Heard of them?
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

Im sorry but this post proves what? So far in those drafts you listed there has been all star talent in almost every draft. If the 8th pick stunk it was because the team picked wrong, NOT because "8th has produce role players for the most part"

Its on the Knicks to pick the right player. They have drafted well. This should be a good addition.

I didn't say there were no good players after or before 8th, I don't have any remote reason why that happens, but you can't argue what's been proven. Can that change, of course it can, anything can happen. But if im looking at 8 and not at least take into consideration it really hasn't produce any all stars for what ever reason, im not doing my due diligence.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Briggs, multiple picks means you can spread risk and take some chances. Also increases the odds of finding something.
But at no. 8 you have a real chance. Khawai, Lillard.........etc type of chance.

This is where all your talents come together Briggs. Its easy to spread it out, but now you have to make a pick soon.

Whose your guy? Just one. One guy to say "Told you so"!!
or......
one guy we can forever call you out on!!

Nobody said this was an easy job. One guy, one pick.

have you looked at the last 10players taking at number 8

2016-marquess chriss - very good player
2015-stanley Johnson - Very good player. Myles Turner also available.
2014-nic stauskus - weak draft but Saric was still available
2013-terrence ross - Drummond was on board and picked next
2012-cadwell pope - CJ McCollum was picked 10. He's a stud. Giannis Adetokoubo was available. Hear of him? Steve Adams...
2011-brandon McKnight - Klay Thompson and Kawhi Leonard were on the board. Heard of them?
2010-Al-forouq Amniu---haywood and Paul G 9th and 10th
2009-Jordan Hill- demarcus Rozen came 9th

8th has produce role players for the most part

Im sorry but this post proves what? So far in those drafts you listed there has been all star talent in almost every draft. If the 8th pick stunk it was because the team picked wrong, NOT because "8th has produce role players for the most part"

Its on the Knicks to pick the right player. They have drafted well. This should be a good addition.

I didn't say there were no good players after or before 8th, I don't have any remote reason why that happens, but you can't argue what's been proven. Can that change, of course it can, anything can happen. But if im looking at 8 and not at least take into consideration it really hasn't produce any all stars for what ever reason, im not doing my due diligence.

The only due diligence that has any relevence is what level of talent is available at 8. Who was picked there in the past doesnt factor in team's drafting history (are they any good?), doesnt factor in team needs (did a team pass a on more talented player because of their roster fit?)... I mean just looking at who was taking at 8 doesnt accomplish much. You need to look at what level of talent is there.

newyorknewyork wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I dont like 8. Id like to see us offer Portland 8 for 15-20-26

Reminds me of the 1996 draft. If the Knicks had the 8th pick they would've had access to Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic, Steve Nash or Jermaine O'Neal. They did have picks 18, 19, and 21 and ended up with John Wallace, Walter McCarty, and Dontae Jones, meaning they pretty much ended up with nothing.

I'll take one high pick over a quantity of low first round picks every single time.

This isn't the NFL. Trading down rarely works out in the NBA. I still wouldn't have too much a problem, but it's to far out to forecast who will be available. I'd keep the lines of communication open and see if such a trade makes sense on draft night.

Nets traded down from #7 (Eddie Griffin) for #13(Richard Jefferson), #18(Jason Collins), #23(Brandon Armstrong)

Jefferson proved to be the better NBA player alone. But other players available for Nets to draft around 13-23 = Zach Randolph, Brendon Haywood, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Jamal Tinsley, Toney Parker, Gilbert Arenas.

That's one instance in which trading down worked out, with no proven veteran players involved. Sure, it can work, but the odds aren't in our favor. I'm not completely against the idea. But it's tough for me to say trading down is the right move this far out from draft day.