Knicks · What if Melo refuses to drop his no trade clause? (page 1)
If Melo wants to stay we have to get organized. Melo has to transition to the 4 full time. He's got too buy into the focus of the team not just what he wants to do.
As far as winning now, Melo has to do that ground work. Chris Paul is a free agent. Rondo is free. Lowry is free. Can he get them on board? Phil can't do that alone. We get one of them and maybe we can make a play for another piece.
If Melo can't attract anyone, then he's got to be down to play with younger guys and losing a whole lot.
On one hand I think the Rubio rumors may speak to that very possibility. Rubio can certainly improve upon Rose in getting the ball to an open man whether that is Melo, Porzingis, or someone else. But none of that will matter unless Melo stays and gets with the program head, sneakers, and attitude.
Another year of passive/aggressive belligerence will spell doom for a successful season no matter how the roster changes. This means, in no uncertain terms, that Melo needs not only to play team ball 24/7 but also to accept being a role player.
Personally I don't trust Melo to do that and I doubt anyone in the organization believes it either. And this is why Melo is going to have a rough time of it and it will have nothing to do with running Melo out of town.
I think we can take Phil's words at face value and assume he's moving on with or without Melo And even more specifically that winning will be a by-product of rebuilding and not of fulfilling Melo's dreams. The consequences reach much further than Melo's role. It speaks directly to playing time, touches, ego, branding, and so on. Psychologically and as a 24/7 media scandal, it will not be pretty.
I think Phil's advice to Melo was not only sincere but wise. Sticking around on a team that is no longer a fit makes zero sense.
So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
EnySpree wrote:We are clearly rebuilding....If Melo wants to stay we have to get organized. Melo has to transition to the 4 full time. He's got too buy into the focus of the team not just what he wants to do.
As far as winning now, Melo has to do that ground work. Chris Paul is a free agent. Rondo is free. Lowry is free. Can he get them on board? Phil can't do that alone. We get one of them and maybe we can make a play for another piece.
If Melo can't attract anyone, then he's got to be down to play with younger guys and losing a whole lot.
Look, we need to stop kidding ourselves. We have 6 years of hard data showing MElo isnt going to buy into jack. Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. And Chris Paul would have to be dumber than a rock to come here to play with Melo. They may be friends but everyone in tbe league understands that Melo is very much in the decline.
Melo needs to be cut, failing which he needs to be told to stay home.
If he will get a good opportunity he likes he will drop the NTC for it.
If nothing will come up he will stay and play... as he usually plays.
It is hard to teach old dog new tricks.
And why he will care. The only records he can beat is scoring so he will continue to climb the ladder.
Someone will need to entertain the tourists at MSG so why not Melo...
Circus left but clowns still around...
meloshouldgo wrote:EnySpree wrote:We are clearly rebuilding....If Melo wants to stay we have to get organized. Melo has to transition to the 4 full time. He's got too buy into the focus of the team not just what he wants to do.
As far as winning now, Melo has to do that ground work. Chris Paul is a free agent. Rondo is free. Lowry is free. Can he get them on board? Phil can't do that alone. We get one of them and maybe we can make a play for another piece.
If Melo can't attract anyone, then he's got to be down to play with younger guys and losing a whole lot.
Look, we need to stop kidding ourselves. We have 6 years of hard data showing MElo isnt going to buy into jack. Trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. And Chris Paul would have to be dumber than a rock to come here to play with Melo. They Maine friends but everyone in tbe league understands that Melo is very much in the decline.
Melo needs to be cut, failing which he needs to be told to stay home.
It could definately get to that and that would be the absolute worst case scenario.... still get another high draft pick though so it's not a total loss.
arkrud wrote:Melo has agent and the team to take care about this stuff.
If he will get a good opportunity he likes he will drop the NTC for it.
If nothing will come up he will stay and play... as he usually plays.
It is hard to teach old dog new tricks.
And why he will care. The only records he can beat is scoring so he will continue to climb the ladder.
Someone will need to entertain the tourists at MSG so why not Melo...
Circus left but clowns still around...
fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
One thing I hope we don't do is implied in the original post. Do nothing with a "win now" bias
We need to build. Not milk the last few buckets of a fading star
Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
I think the worst case is if this thing drags on and Knicks have to take a really bad deal because they cant stomach cutting him
Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
It's funny, at the start of every season, Melo's the one pulling everyone together, including the youngsters. But that doesn't count. During the season, our unicorn practically jerks off over Melo every chance he gets. Is this how a budding diva would act? Doubtful. Divas act like Rose; sullen, quiet, a few occasionally weird drama queen miscues before and during the season. But that doesn't count in Melo's favor either. Actually, the "Zinger Zings the Exit Meeting of Zen" gets laid at the feet of this board's favorite DOUCHE, too.
Why would Melo drop his NTC? He's a businessman. He's just turned 33. He's got the max contract. He's not going to be playing with Lebron. And no other team is going to swallow that contract. The current owner sucks his dick. Which means he can play internet cutie pies with his ringbearing Prez all year long. No biggie; if anything, it's free publicity for the "brand".
Would I like the DOUCHE to play defense? Surely. But I might be the only "knick fan" who can look at what we were before Melo got here, and before Chief Triangle Genius took the reins and did a minor Hinkie to the franchise, and appreciate some value. Did we win a chip? No, but the Melo reign of terror got us to the playoffs, singlehandedly, once playing with some of the absolute lowest of shit to ever don the uniform, once with a crew of hobbled geriatrics, and once with a pair of jv-class, one-season wonders who wilted pathetically in the playoffs.
Oh look, the NTC is still there. Keep wishing fellas.
jrodmc wrote:why do you keep calling Melo a douche?Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
It's funny, at the start of every season, Melo's the one pulling everyone together, including the youngsters. But that doesn't count. During the season, our unicorn practically jerks off over Melo every chance he gets. Is this how a budding diva would act? Doubtful. Divas act like Rose; sullen, quiet, a few occasionally weird drama queen miscues before and during the season. But that doesn't count in Melo's favor either. Actually, the "Zinger Zings the Exit Meeting of Zen" gets laid at the feet of this board's favorite DOUCHE, too.Why would Melo drop his NTC? He's a businessman. He's just turned 33. He's got the max contract. He's not going to be playing with Lebron. And no other team is going to swallow that contract. The current owner sucks his dick. Which means he can play internet cutie pies with his ringbearing Prez all year long. No biggie; if anything, it's free publicity for the "brand".
Would I like the DOUCHE to play defense? Surely. But I might be the only "knick fan" who can look at what we were before Melo got here, and before Chief Triangle Genius took the reins and did a minor Hinkie to the franchise, and appreciate some value. Did we win a chip? No, but the Melo reign of terror got us to the playoffs, singlehandedly, once playing with some of the absolute lowest of shit to ever don the uniform, once with a crew of hobbled geriatrics, and once with a pair of jv-class, one-season wonders who wilted pathetically in the playoffs.
Oh look, the NTC is still there. Keep wishing fellas.
Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
what point are you trying to make? The issue is if your real market value is let's say 17 million and you're in a world of the current CAP, you create a market inefficiency. One team wants to trade you at 17 and another team would accept you at 17 but the rule prohibit the transfer: rules say transfer has to be 30 million. That's a market inefficiency. Are you disputing that? The disgusting thing about the situation is there are plenty of solutions that could allow this transfer, and still ensure the player gets his original bargain -- e.g., trading team pays the extra 13 million but doesn't count on cap. There are many teams besides the Knicks that have been slammed by this inefficiency. SOmetimes it's because it was a purely bad deal, sometimes the player's game declines for whatever reason including aggregation of injuries, rule changes, whatever.
and regarding your "serious breach" I think you meant material breach. And if you're going to play "lawyer" keep in mint that in the real world there are also specific performance clauses which would specify what the performer is supposed to do, and if he/she doesn't he is liable, e.g., show up and perform at the concert or we can hold you liable for our lost profits/damages. Not sure if you conveniently forgot about that, whether you just didn't know, or whether you're just trying to be antagonistic smarty-pants.
The CBA has problems and it's affecting the NBA's products. Tons of mediocrity, limited ability to change via acquisition (if that's what a team wants to do), creation of super teams because of multi-million players who no longer need/want to chase last dollars and instead want to join a super team for an increasing hollow trophy. Sand-bagging during the season by said super teams etc. And a guaranteed contract structure which is out of touch with the values of its fanbase. Fans are sick and tired of seeing players get the super contract and then turn into somebody else. When they see a person making super money, they don't want to see someone dogging it, undermining coaches and management, or even declining. They know if it were them in their jobs doing the same stuff (making a fraction of the money) they'd be in the soup.
If he wants to stay then he must accept his new role coming off the bench as a scorer for quick offense. He may play 10 mins one night and 30 the next. It all depends if his shot is falling. That's it.
I would think He will want to leave about a month into that.
Less minutes.
Lots of "rest" games.
Even on good terms and if we wanted him to stay, we should be using him as a veteran not the guy you rely on every night to carry you.
Look at the Spurs how they rest their vet stars.
We should treat Melo same. 30 minutes a game. Back to backs off. Things like that.
Listen, we need to do this right. We shouldn't trade O'Quinn, who is coming into his own and is multi-faceted. We shouldn't trade Lee either (unless it's necessary to bring in Rubio). We shouldn't give Melo away.
If we can acquire Rubio through a DRose sign and trade our team gets a thousand times better. And right away. Then take the BPA in the draft (DSJr, Frank, Collins, Mitchell, I don't care as long as he's the most talented). Acquire another first by taking on one salary (hopefully Harkless) and draft another young stud (could be Kennard or Swanigan?). And grab Frank Mason or Frank Jackson in the 2nd round.
Rubio
Lee
Melo
KP
Willy
Bench: O'Quinn, Noah, Baker, Holiday, Harkless, Smith or Ntilikina, Swanigan or Kennard, Mason, Thomas, Kuz, Randall, NDour, Plumlee, Sasha
That's a much better team with depth and lots of youth.
EnySpree wrote:We are clearly rebuilding....If Melo wants to stay we have to get organized. Melo has to transition to the 4 full time. He's got too buy into the focus of the team not just what he wants to do.
As far as winning now, Melo has to do that ground work. Chris Paul is a free agent. Rondo is free. Lowry is free. Can he get them on board? Phil can't do that alone. We get one of them and maybe we can make a play for another piece.
If Melo can't attract anyone, then he's got to be down to play with younger guys and losing a whole lot.
Melo hasn't already shown you that he can't get big name players to come to New York?? He hasn't been able to get any significant players to come here in the 8 years he's been here so not sure how anyone can think that might be able to change now after a disastrous season on and off the court and with us only having around $19 mil to spend.
If he does stay then he stays and if i were J.Hornacek or Phil i'd tell Melo that there will be a very good chance that he'll be coming off the bench as our 6th man/scorer off the bench and if Melo doesn't mind that then it's time to just throw our hands up and give up on trading him and still build the team around KP. Then in two years when he's off the books we hope the young guys are ready to take that next step and keep building from there. We could actually have an interesting lineup next year even if Melo stays.
PG--D.Smith
SG--C.Lee
SF--Melo--We could sign a free agent for this spot or if we get another 1st round pick we could draft a SF for this spot and have Melo as our 6th man.
PF--KP
C--Billy/Noah
A new PG like DSJ or D.Mitchell or F.Nitty could by itself be a nice change for this team and if everything clicked right we could be a fun team to watch next season. I was gonna start making up some lineups but without knowing what's gonna happen with guys like Melo, C.Lee, KOQ and really anyone, it's hard to say what this team could look like next season. We could trade for R.Rubio or sign a J.Teague or not sign any bigger name players and just go with young guys but the Melo thing is what we need to know.
fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
100% accurate,
It's too many hurdles right now to even think about trading him
1)no contender can fit him under their cap without depleting their depth
2)no contender is giving up a major part of their core for him
3)he still wants to be here
4)phil wants a bona fide starter/scorer in return at the very least
5)He's not waiving that NTC to go to another lottery or suspect playoff team to please phil
I'm starting to think it was part of phils mind games, because it just seem incredible tough to move this guy, and make no mistake, I could careless if he goes or stays, the only thing im concern about is adding more salary, or replacing him with some BS 10 ppg role player
knicks1248 wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
100% accurate,
It's too many hurdles right now to even think about trading him
1)no contender can fit him under their cap without depleting their depth
2)no contender is giving up a major part of their core for him
3)he still wants to be here
4)phil wants a bona fide starter/scorer in return at the very least
5)He's not waiving that NTC to go to another lottery or suspect playoff team to please philI'm starting to think it was part of phils mind games, because it just seem incredible tough to move this guy, and make no mistake, I could careless if he goes or stays, the only thing im concern about is adding more salary, or replacing him with some BS 10 ppg role player
I can't see any destination but Cleveland for Melo.
Chandler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.what point are you trying to make? The issue is if your real market value is let's say 17 million and you're in a world of the current CAP, you create a market inefficiency. One team wants to trade you at 17 and another team would accept you at 17 but the rule prohibit the transfer: rules say transfer has to be 30 million. That's a market inefficiency. Are you disputing that? The disgusting thing about the situation is there are plenty of solutions that could allow this transfer, and still ensure the player gets his original bargain -- e.g., trading team pays the extra 13 million but doesn't count on cap. There are many teams besides the Knicks that have been slammed by this inefficiency. SOmetimes it's because it was a purely bad deal, sometimes the player's game declines for whatever reason including aggregation of injuries, rule changes, whatever.
and regarding your "serious breach" I think you meant material breach. And if you're going to play "lawyer" keep in mint that in the real world there are also specific performance clauses which would specify what the performer is supposed to do, and if he/she doesn't he is liable, e.g., show up and perform at the concert or we can hold you liable for our lost profits/damages. Not sure if you conveniently forgot about that, whether you just didn't know, or whether you're just trying to be antagonistic smarty-pants.
The CBA has problems and it's affecting the NBA's products. Tons of mediocrity, limited ability to change via acquisition (if that's what a team wants to do), creation of super teams because of multi-million players who no longer need/want to chase last dollars and instead want to join a super team for an increasing hollow trophy. Sand-bagging during the season by said super teams etc. And a guaranteed contract structure which is out of touch with the values of its fanbase. Fans are sick and tired of seeing players get the super contract and then turn into somebody else. When they see a person making super money, they don't want to see someone dogging it, undermining coaches and management, or even declining. They know if it were them in their jobs doing the same stuff (making a fraction of the money) they'd be in the soup.
"Real world" analogies go out the window in professional sports. There's a ridiculous number of discrepancies between real world economics and professional sports economics.
Regarding your other point, though, there are performance clauses in NBA contracts. Players are required to do certain things and face penalties if they don't. They also get financial rewards for playing well (e.g., all-star selections). There may or may not be more specific performance clauses in other real-world settings. Teachers just have to meet the minimum requirements of their contracts, for example. A doctor hired by a hospital likely just has to meet the minimum requirements during the duration of the contract.