Chandler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
what point are you trying to make? The issue is if your real market value is let's say 17 million and you're in a world of the current CAP, you create a market inefficiency. One team wants to trade you at 17 and another team would accept you at 17 but the rule prohibit the transfer: rules say transfer has to be 30 million. That's a market inefficiency. Are you disputing that? The disgusting thing about the situation is there are plenty of solutions that could allow this transfer, and still ensure the player gets his original bargain -- e.g., trading team pays the extra 13 million but doesn't count on cap. There are many teams besides the Knicks that have been slammed by this inefficiency. SOmetimes it's because it was a purely bad deal, sometimes the player's game declines for whatever reason including aggregation of injuries, rule changes, whatever.
and regarding your "serious breach" I think you meant material breach. And if you're going to play "lawyer" keep in mint that in the real world there are also specific performance clauses which would specify what the performer is supposed to do, and if he/she doesn't he is liable, e.g., show up and perform at the concert or we can hold you liable for our lost profits/damages. Not sure if you conveniently forgot about that, whether you just didn't know, or whether you're just trying to be antagonistic smarty-pants.
The CBA has problems and it's affecting the NBA's products. Tons of mediocrity, limited ability to change via acquisition (if that's what a team wants to do), creation of super teams because of multi-million players who no longer need/want to chase last dollars and instead want to join a super team for an increasing hollow trophy. Sand-bagging during the season by said super teams etc. And a guaranteed contract structure which is out of touch with the values of its fanbase. Fans are sick and tired of seeing players get the super contract and then turn into somebody else. When they see a person making super money, they don't want to see someone dogging it, undermining coaches and management, or even declining. They know if it were them in their jobs doing the same stuff (making a fraction of the money) they'd be in the soup.
"Real world" analogies go out the window in professional sports. There's a ridiculous number of discrepancies between real world economics and professional sports economics.
Regarding your other point, though, there are performance clauses in NBA contracts. Players are required to do certain things and face penalties if they don't. They also get financial rewards for playing well (e.g., all-star selections). There may or may not be more specific performance clauses in other real-world settings. Teachers just have to meet the minimum requirements of their contracts, for example. A doctor hired by a hospital likely just has to meet the minimum requirements during the duration of the contract.
fishmike wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
It's funny, at the start of every season, Melo's the one pulling everyone together, including the youngsters. But that doesn't count. During the season, our unicorn practically jerks off over Melo every chance he gets. Is this how a budding diva would act? Doubtful. Divas act like Rose; sullen, quiet, a few occasionally weird drama queen miscues before and during the season. But that doesn't count in Melo's favor either. Actually, the "Zinger Zings the Exit Meeting of Zen" gets laid at the feet of this board's favorite DOUCHE, too. Why would Melo drop his NTC? He's a businessman. He's just turned 33. He's got the max contract. He's not going to be playing with Lebron. And no other team is going to swallow that contract. The current owner sucks his dick. Which means he can play internet cutie pies with his ringbearing Prez all year long. No biggie; if anything, it's free publicity for the "brand".
Would I like the DOUCHE to play defense? Surely. But I might be the only "knick fan" who can look at what we were before Melo got here, and before Chief Triangle Genius took the reins and did a minor Hinkie to the franchise, and appreciate some value. Did we win a chip? No, but the Melo reign of terror got us to the playoffs, singlehandedly, once playing with some of the absolute lowest of shit to ever don the uniform, once with a crew of hobbled geriatrics, and once with a pair of jv-class, one-season wonders who wilted pathetically in the playoffs.
Oh look, the NTC is still there. Keep wishing fellas.
why do you keep calling Melo a douche?
seems kind of contradictive
newyorker4ever wrote:EnySpree wrote:We are clearly rebuilding....If Melo wants to stay we have to get organized. Melo has to transition to the 4 full time. He's got too buy into the focus of the team not just what he wants to do.
As far as winning now, Melo has to do that ground work. Chris Paul is a free agent. Rondo is free. Lowry is free. Can he get them on board? Phil can't do that alone. We get one of them and maybe we can make a play for another piece.
If Melo can't attract anyone, then he's got to be down to play with younger guys and losing a whole lot.
Melo hasn't already shown you that he can't get big name players to come to New York?? He hasn't been able to get any significant players to come here in the 8 years he's been here so not sure how anyone can think that might be able to change now after a disastrous season on and off the court and with us only having around $19 mil to spend.
That's the whole argument as to why Melo needs to leave. He can't attract anyone. Even his best friends. If he wants to stay it's on his camp to do that ground work and present it to Phil. Phil wants to rebuild through the draft. We can still do that this off season but we do have the ability to bring in a Chris Paul by moving salary around. Not saying I want to do that. If Melo wants that his camp had to get that ball rolling
fishmike wrote:jrodmc wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
It's funny, at the start of every season, Melo's the one pulling everyone together, including the youngsters. But that doesn't count. During the season, our unicorn practically jerks off over Melo every chance he gets. Is this how a budding diva would act? Doubtful. Divas act like Rose; sullen, quiet, a few occasionally weird drama queen miscues before and during the season. But that doesn't count in Melo's favor either. Actually, the "Zinger Zings the Exit Meeting of Zen" gets laid at the feet of this board's favorite DOUCHE, too. Why would Melo drop his NTC? He's a businessman. He's just turned 33. He's got the max contract. He's not going to be playing with Lebron. And no other team is going to swallow that contract. The current owner sucks his dick. Which means he can play internet cutie pies with his ringbearing Prez all year long. No biggie; if anything, it's free publicity for the "brand".
Would I like the DOUCHE to play defense? Surely. But I might be the only "knick fan" who can look at what we were before Melo got here, and before Chief Triangle Genius took the reins and did a minor Hinkie to the franchise, and appreciate some value. Did we win a chip? No, but the Melo reign of terror got us to the playoffs, singlehandedly, once playing with some of the absolute lowest of shit to ever don the uniform, once with a crew of hobbled geriatrics, and once with a pair of jv-class, one-season wonders who wilted pathetically in the playoffs.
Oh look, the NTC is still there. Keep wishing fellas.
why do you keep calling Melo a douche?
I'm channeling my inner tkf/dk7th. Good memories, man
Then Phil has a scapegoat
fishmike wrote:While its a possibility it doesnt really make sense for anyone. Does Melo really want to play for Phil's Knicks? I mean even if its out of spite think it through... it will not be a good environment and its really important for Melo to be liked and wanted and valued. There is no, zilch, zero upside for Melo to stick it out here for any reason. Not when he could go to either LA team. I think the worst case is if this thing drags on and Knicks have to take a really bad deal because they cant stomach cutting him
If MElo could think it through he would have removed the NTC by now
He ain't that smart.
I could see the Cavs becoming a high lottery team within 2 years. Lebron is already on the downward side of his career and isn’t getting any younger. Love might be done by then because of his injuries (or greatly diminished). Kyrie might be the only one left. Let’s trade Melo there for their 2020 first round pick, if he'll go there.
Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Chandler wrote:fwk00 wrote:The other interpretation of this question is whether or not the NTC even matters. There is a very, very small market for Melo and PJ has taken a lot of heat for his previous trades. Its already been established at the February trade deadline that the Knicks aren't giving Melo away.So a lot of things have to line up for a Melo trade to be viable. The NTC is just one of many.
True and add ego. I think the sad reality for us is that the top teams don't want him, nor do his friends. (Too expensive for his declining skills). This is the artifact of a CAP. Without a cap some team would add. With a more flexible CBA where he could be traded w let's say a current market rate for the cap figure he could be traded. But carrying the cap number of the original deal is killer Makes market inefficient. Not the way it works in the real world.
In the real world, an employer can't even trade you to a different organization anyway! Once they give you a guaranteed contract, they're stuck with you unless you seriously breach the contract.
what point are you trying to make? The issue is if your real market value is let's say 17 million and you're in a world of the current CAP, you create a market inefficiency. One team wants to trade you at 17 and another team would accept you at 17 but the rule prohibit the transfer: rules say transfer has to be 30 million. That's a market inefficiency. Are you disputing that? The disgusting thing about the situation is there are plenty of solutions that could allow this transfer, and still ensure the player gets his original bargain -- e.g., trading team pays the extra 13 million but doesn't count on cap. There are many teams besides the Knicks that have been slammed by this inefficiency. SOmetimes it's because it was a purely bad deal, sometimes the player's game declines for whatever reason including aggregation of injuries, rule changes, whatever.
and regarding your "serious breach" I think you meant material breach. And if you're going to play "lawyer" keep in mint that in the real world there are also specific performance clauses which would specify what the performer is supposed to do, and if he/she doesn't he is liable, e.g., show up and perform at the concert or we can hold you liable for our lost profits/damages. Not sure if you conveniently forgot about that, whether you just didn't know, or whether you're just trying to be antagonistic smarty-pants.
The CBA has problems and it's affecting the NBA's products. Tons of mediocrity, limited ability to change via acquisition (if that's what a team wants to do), creation of super teams because of multi-million players who no longer need/want to chase last dollars and instead want to join a super team for an increasing hollow trophy. Sand-bagging during the season by said super teams etc. And a guaranteed contract structure which is out of touch with the values of its fanbase. Fans are sick and tired of seeing players get the super contract and then turn into somebody else. When they see a person making super money, they don't want to see someone dogging it, undermining coaches and management, or even declining. They know if it were them in their jobs doing the same stuff (making a fraction of the money) they'd be in the soup.
"Real world" analogies go out the window in professional sports. There's a ridiculous number of discrepancies between real world economics and professional sports economics.
Regarding your other point, though, there are performance clauses in NBA contracts. Players are required to do certain things and face penalties if they don't. They also get financial rewards for playing well (e.g., all-star selections). There may or may not be more specific performance clauses in other real-world settings. Teachers just have to meet the minimum requirements of their contracts, for example. A doctor hired by a hospital likely just has to meet the minimum requirements during the duration of the contract.
I agree with Bonn. Economics doesn't apply to guaranteed contracts. Tbe thing that's still worse is that the consumers (fans) have no purchasing power. They can't select a product or player of their liking. The selections are made by bored millionaires who only want to rake in profits and don't care if their choices are aligned with their paying customers. While supply and demand still drives a players value it totally does not work as a free market. The hype and allure of pro sports is being kept alive by the media. But the new generations (millennials) seem to care a little bit less.
As long as people keep showing up for the shitty product (NBA) nothing will change.
EnySpree wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:EnySpree wrote:We are clearly rebuilding....If Melo wants to stay we have to get organized. Melo has to transition to the 4 full time. He's got too buy into the focus of the team not just what he wants to do.
As far as winning now, Melo has to do that ground work. Chris Paul is a free agent. Rondo is free. Lowry is free. Can he get them on board? Phil can't do that alone. We get one of them and maybe we can make a play for another piece.
If Melo can't attract anyone, then he's got to be down to play with younger guys and losing a whole lot.
Melo hasn't already shown you that he can't get big name players to come to New York?? He hasn't been able to get any significant players to come here in the 8 years he's been here so not sure how anyone can think that might be able to change now after a disastrous season on and off the court and with us only having around $19 mil to spend.
That's the whole argument as to why Melo needs to leave. He can't attract anyone. Even his best friends. If he wants to stay it's on his camp to do that ground work and present it to Phil. Phil wants to rebuild through the draft. We can still do that this off season but we do have the ability to bring in a Chris Paul by moving salary around. Not saying I want to do that. If Melo wants that his camp had to get that ball rolling
Have the Knicks had cap space since Melo has been in ny? Most years the best they could offer was the mid level. The one year they had cap space LMA was going to meet with Phil but Phil told him he would only play him at center. The summer of Rolo and Afflalo was the only year that I can recall the Knicks having cap space.
meloshouldgo wrote:fishmike wrote:While its a possibility it doesnt really make sense for anyone. Does Melo really want to play for Phil's Knicks? I mean even if its out of spite think it through... it will not be a good environment and its really important for Melo to be liked and wanted and valued. There is no, zilch, zero upside for Melo to stick it out here for any reason. Not when he could go to either LA team. I think the worst case is if this thing drags on and Knicks have to take a really bad deal because they cant stomach cutting him
If MElo could think it through he would have removed the NTC by now
He ain't that smart.
Why? He can choose to go to a good situation/winning organization if he keeps the NTC. Waiving it means he could end up in a rebuilding situation in a crappy city. He was given the right by Phil to choose to stay or choose where he wants to go. Phil certainly didn't sign Melo to a deal that a smart gm would. I don't think Vlade even gives Melo what Phil did. I am not sure where the faith in Phil as an executive is coming from. Unless you are into accidental tanking as your rebuild plan, Phil has been a disaster. Hopefully he is focusing on the rebuild and doesn't give out any Melo/Noah deals over the next two years.
