Knicks · Worst case scenario could put us in the playoffs? (page 2)

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

absolutely,
imagine dwill was brought here to help melo, but on the cavs he has barely play 10 minutes in the entire playoffs.

Our entire bench would see little to no minutes on any of the top 10 teams in the leagues

so now willy is garbage?

Garbage in the sense that they haven't proven anything. Getting minutes on a 30 win team, scoring points - that doesn't mean anything.

We can't count on them to be foundational pieces.

I like them, they play hard. But they were outgunned, often.

nyknickzingis wrote:Having thought about this, I think if we keep Melo because the trade return is just not worth it (which is a pretty good chance), I think I'd be happier with Ntilikina over Monk/DSJ. Playing off Melo/KP/Willy, I think we saw with Rose, how useless a point guard or high usage ballhandler on the outside is. Melo is high usage. KP will only get more high usage in his development. Willy has great touch. We need defensive minded guards who make plays that help the front court guys get easier looks and also make the front court guys play less help defense (their weakness).

I'm ready to go with a Ntilikina/Baker backcourt next year, around KP/Melo/Willy. I don't think we should put any playoff expectation, just that we will be competitive (33-35 wins) and much better defensively with more young player development.

If we could trade Lee for a second first round pick, get the guy that the Knicks seem to like in JJ, then the Knicks have some nice young developing players around Melo and a competitive team.

9 man regular rotation:
Willy/KP
KP/Kuz
Melo/Jackson
Baker/Holiday
Ntilikina/Randle

- Lots of players here who can improve and are 1-2 years or less into the league with Willy, KP, Kuz, Jackson, Baker. Nti, Randle (7).

Vet help/Depth
Noah
O'Quinn
Thomas
Vujacic (Played well for the vet min last year imo)

Would make sense to sign a veteran backup point guard.

That's a team that in the best case scenario sneaks into the playoffs, and likely is at 35 wins, only unlike last year, we develop more young players than just KP/Willy/Baker. We'd develop those 3 and new players with good NBA ceilings like Nti and may be JJ.

Please no big contracts to veteran point guards, wings or whatever. Preserve capspace for when Melo opts out in a year and leaves.

30-35 wins is the worst thing that could happen.

Where is our talent coming from? So, add another mid round pick? We'll be good enough to be an 8th seed for the KPs prime years, and waste his talent like we did with Ewing.

Question.....

What if we were to trade the 8th pick for Wiggins? You can add this to a possible Rubio sign and trade for Rose. It could get crazy... but what if the outcome of the trade results in Melo, Wiggins, KP, Rubio and Lee? Is that a good starting 5?

nixluva wrote:

franco12 wrote:I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

Premature to say KP won't be a player at that special level. I think KP will keep improving and achieve a high level and as we upgrade around him it will make him even better. Once KP physically matures he's gonna dominate.

You'd like to have it both ways. Its too early to write him off, but your convinced he's going to dominate!

Look, we have different opinions/assessments about KP. I see a really good player. Maybe a great player - but not an elite player.

I could be wrong.

But, the point is we should be building this team not for next year, but for 2-5 years out.

Bsker and Kuz are nice players, but the only spot they have in the league is on a 30 win team.

Or perhaps its better to say the only spot where they will get minutes on a regular basis is a 30 win team.

They will never be anything but nice role players, and role players don't get you 50 wins. Stars do.

Swishfm3 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

EnySpree wrote:All of a sudden you have a team that could possibly make the playoffs which is so ridiculous.

I don't wish injury upon any player in any sport.

That being said, to make the playoffs, the Knicks would need some critical injuries to other key players on Eastern teams. Also they'd need Melo to be injured for the entire season, starting at some point in the preseason.

I think they can squeeze into the 8th seed or fight for it playing team ball without Melo in the active starting lineup.

I just don't understand why people keep saying a legit point guard would make a difference. Melo refuses to move effectively while off the ball and when he gets the ball, he hogs it. How can a point guard set up the offense when he never sees the ball besides taking it over the half court line?

Some players are just that stupid. James Harden just refused to play team ball with Lin in the lineup. Now Harden basically handles the ball and runs the Houston offense. Melo just makes it all too hard. If you are going to hog the ball, at least actually run the entire offense. But that would take hard work and effort and sacrifice, and Melo ain't having none of dat, fo sho.

pure ignorance

Evidence has shown that Melo has played within a system when paired with a PG that knows what he is doing (Billups & Kidd). Even in this season with the GREAT RON BAKER, we have seen Baker attempt to run the offense away from Melo and even has called him off on quite a few occasions with Melo obliging.

Pssst.. don't bother TripleThreat with facts or evidence; he might write a fourteen paragraph post about your hidden psychological problems... that no one will read. But me.

Yeah, and anyway, remember, Melo playing better offensively with a HOF/MVP quality PG has nothing to do with Melo, it's all about the PG's ability to make Melo disappear. Both Billups and Kidd employed an insane amount of superstar quality by playing the vaunted 4 on 5 Offense, if you'll recall.

franco12 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Having thought about this, I think if we keep Melo because the trade return is just not worth it (which is a pretty good chance), I think I'd be happier with Ntilikina over Monk/DSJ. Playing off Melo/KP/Willy, I think we saw with Rose, how useless a point guard or high usage ballhandler on the outside is. Melo is high usage. KP will only get more high usage in his development. Willy has great touch. We need defensive minded guards who make plays that help the front court guys get easier looks and also make the front court guys play less help defense (their weakness).

I'm ready to go with a Ntilikina/Baker backcourt next year, around KP/Melo/Willy. I don't think we should put any playoff expectation, just that we will be competitive (33-35 wins) and much better defensively with more young player development.

If we could trade Lee for a second first round pick, get the guy that the Knicks seem to like in JJ, then the Knicks have some nice young developing players around Melo and a competitive team.

9 man regular rotation:
Willy/KP
KP/Kuz
Melo/Jackson
Baker/Holiday
Ntilikina/Randle

- Lots of players here who can improve and are 1-2 years or less into the league with Willy, KP, Kuz, Jackson, Baker. Nti, Randle (7).

Vet help/Depth
Noah
O'Quinn
Thomas
Vujacic (Played well for the vet min last year imo)

Would make sense to sign a veteran backup point guard.

That's a team that in the best case scenario sneaks into the playoffs, and likely is at 35 wins, only unlike last year, we develop more young players than just KP/Willy/Baker. We'd develop those 3 and new players with good NBA ceilings like Nti and may be JJ.

Please no big contracts to veteran point guards, wings or whatever. Preserve capspace for when Melo opts out in a year and leaves.

30-35 wins is the worst thing that could happen.

Where is our talent coming from? So, add another mid round pick? We'll be good enough to be an 8th seed for the KPs prime years, and waste his talent like we did with Ewing.

I don't know what you rate as "talent" but to me KP, Willy, Ntilikina and Baker is talent and 4 possible top 7 guys on a good team in the future. We'd be a few more pieces away.

Even if you draft second, or third, it doesn't automatically mean you draft the star that will change the franchise's path. I think the key for this team moving forward is to find active, defensively skilled players that can play within a system. We have a base with KP/Willy. Both those guys can get you 15-20 points a night, they have shown it. KP even more if he works hard and develops. We need a guard that can do the same (give us 15-20) and put pressure from outside. Is that Nti? Is it Monk? Is it DSJ? I don't know, I'm not the draft expert. We need to get that guy, though. In the meantime, if Melo can shift his game to be a guard that gives the team that like he did in 2015-16, that would be great.

Primarily we should be looking to trade Melo and go all out rebuild, and finishing with 20/25 wins. Get a top 4 pick. I'm fine with that. But that's if we can get a solid Melo deal. One that gives us capspace (no bad longterm contracts), a draft pick OR a young core player. We don't get that, I don't want to do the deal. I rather keep Melo a year, on a contract year, and shift him to a lesser (minutes wise) load where he's getting back to backs off and a max 30 minutes a night. His role should be of a point forward. He can do it, but it needs to be identified clearly.

Porzingis and Melo on the same team is not exactly a bad thing. We just didn't have good chemistry last year. If KP backs up his talk/action, he should be an all-star next season. In which case you have two all-stars on the same team. One of our major issues the first two years of KP's career is that he has mid-season slumps. He plays great in November and Dec, then slumps in Jan/Feb. Picks up his game again in March and April. When he plays like he does in Nov/Dec we are a playoff team with him and Melo. He needs to have a season where he plays consistently well from Nov-April. We'll be a playoff team if he can do that, assuming Melo is still on the team.

Again, I'd trade Melo, it would be my first option, but I'm not going to approach it with a close minded view. I do not want to take back bad longterm contracts and I want atleast one mid or higher -first round pick and/or a young core player that can start. I won't do the deal less than for Jae Crowder. Or to get a top 15 pick in this draft.

EnySpree wrote:Question.....

What if we were to trade the 8th pick for Wiggins? You can add this to a possible Rubio sign and trade for Rose. It could get crazy... but what if the outcome of the trade results in Melo, Wiggins, KP, Rubio and Lee? Is that a good starting 5?

There is just no way Minnesota is doing those trades.
They can do better than Rose for Rubio.
And they can do better than a 8th pick for Wiggins.

IMO for Rubio they can get a younger starter who will make less than Rose.
For Wiggins they could get a top 5 pick.

If we want Wiggins, we need to give up Willy and the 8th pick. Wiggins is a player on the verge of being the next DeRozan. He is young and his upside is still not reached, especially defensively.