Knicks · Worst case scenario could put us in the playoffs? (page 1)

Last season this knick team almost made the playoffs. You had a winning record and then all of sudden the floor fell through. Now lets say the same group of guys get out there but instead of Derrick Rose we put somebody like Jeff Teague or holiday out there. Let's say we move Melo to the four. Kuz comes in after his rookie year ready to play, ready for the NBA and has a big jump in his production. Then let's to say KP makes the next step but as a center. So now we have Melo at the four, Kuz at the three, KP at Center, Teague at point guard and we still have Lee at shooting guard. Now that's the worst case scenario because we all are expecting trades for more draft picks but what if you can't do that? If we simply add Jeff Teague and move pieces around on the starting line up, All of a sudden you have a team that could possibly make the playoffs which is so ridiculous.

I always thought that we had too much talent to be a lottery team. We just need to put the pieces together better and retain our draft picks. I like the way you think and would look to bring in Teague, Hill or Jrue.

This season was lost not because of Melo. This was lost because of Rose. Melo is strictly a 4 now. You still need a long defensive minded SF to play along Melo. I love Kuz but his defense needs work. I agree with you though. Moving KP and Melo to the 5 and 4 and then getting players at the 1 and 3 will make this team a playoff team.

I don't think that's the right way to go.
You want to try and build a team that will have enough talent 2-3 years from now to be very good for a long time.
You keep Melo, you move KP to 5, you move Willy to bench, you are now messing with re-building and player development.

KP is not best at 5, he won't have the same mismatch with his post game. He would be used much like he was last year, where he hovers way too much on the 3 point line and tries to take players off the dribble. I like that KP has so many skills but he should be matching up with 4's. I really like the Willy/KP tandem as one can work you on the block and set great screens with rolling, while the other can pop, drive, cut and set sreens and spot up from the 3 point line. What's missing for them is a point guard that passes the ball, someone that really understands the importance of moving the ball. If we want to really take a big risk we should either draft Ntilikina or Dennis Smith and put them in action right away with KP/Willy. That is 3 developing longterm building blocks right away working together.

The other piece I'm high on is Ron Baker. He's just such a high IQ, infectious player that does all the right things a team needs. Sets the tone on both ends. Passes the ball. Physical defense fighting through screens, not asking KP/Willy to help every time down.

Melo you deal for a young wing and draft picks. You take back a big contract and use that player for bench/depth help. If there is no good Melo deal out there, you wait. Worst case Melo plays like he does towards the end of the season.

If we are able to get a second mid-1st round pick in the draft, get more wing help with Luke Kennard or Justin Jackson.

Rotation (years in league):

Willy (1)/O'Quinn (4)
KP (2)/Thomas (5)
Jackson (0)/Kuzminskas (1)
SG/Holiday (3)
Ntilikina (0)/Baker (1)
* Could replace Ntilikina with DSJ or possibly draft Monk, and then start Baker with him.

That's a pretty young roster/rotation, with players that can get better as most of them are at 0, 1, 2 years into the league and the "vets" even are only at 4/5. A big 3 investment in KP/Willy/Ntilikina or DSJ.
Then maybe trade Melo for a 2 guard and draft pick, bring Holiday back using early bird rights. Or if you draft Monk as BPA at 8, trade Melo for a starting PG, draft pick.

With the way Cavs and Warriors are built, we should be looking to stay in the lottery another year, get as much young developing talent in the draft as possible but at the same time develop the players we have like KP/Willy/Baker and whomever we draft at 8.

I really liked how the team played the last 10 games of the season in re-build mode. High energy. No drama. Move the ball. Run the system. Play physical D. Whatever happens W-L wise, happens. We have our 2018 draft pick. Just develop players the right way. In a way, I get why KP is upset. No one actually has heard what KP is really upset about. Player development is the key step for us. KP is right about this. They have to invest fully in a re-build. No more stop gaps or trying to build a winner in Melo era.

The bench would have to play a big part in any playoff push. In part to keep KP from not having anything left for the playoffs. The important thing IMO is to keep as many players from last season as possible, while trying to address mostly through free agency or the draft any weaknesses the team has collectively. A good deal for Melo or Noah would be an exception.

Willy/Kuz/N'Dour/Baker/ have all had what you could call an introduction to the Triangle. If this system is to work in NY, the less roster turnover the better.

Wouldn't matter how many years experience they had with this system if they sucked. All those players have showed something at times this season. I wouldn't trade any them for older vets unless we're talking about players in their prime. Not until we really know what they can and cant do.

Continuity has been a big problem for this franchise for a number of reasons, not all within mgmt's control. Phil has the ability as president to impose some continuity with the roster. This IMO will go a long way towards getting the Knicks back in the playoffs.

This is our worst case scenario.... just because Lee is in rumors doesn't mean they are true. We might not be able to move Lee at all. Same with Melo. There might not be a trade to make. He might say fuck you im not going anywhere.

It doesn't change that we have the #8 pick and 2 second rounders. Doesn't change that we want to get younger.

But if we get better internally and get everyone organized and on the same page, this team can literally make the playoffs.

Melo is not going to work at the 4. He can't defend the position, and we ate not going to make the playoffs without playing team basketball. We are not that skilled and when type primary scorer shoots 6-21 you are gonna lose a lot of games.

meloshouldgo wrote:Melo is not going to work at the 4. He can't defend the position, and we ate not going to make the playoffs without playing team basketball. We are not that skilled and when type primary scorer shoots 6-21 you are gonna lose a lot of games.

Melo can't defends the 3 either... basketball is a team sport. Thats all i have to say about that

With or without Melo, I can't see this team winning more than 35 games next year. Baker is a fine player but simply doesn't have the speed to stay with many of the faster guards ...Kemba, Wall, Hardin, Steph Etc. if Frank N comes on to nth team, he will sit plenty. Even if we keep Melo, it's a slow footed front line and we may love Justin and trade Rose. The team may be marginally better than 2016.

Paris907 wrote:With or without Melo, I can't see this team winning more than 35 games next year. Baker is a fine player but simply doesn't have the speed to stay with many of the faster guards ...Kemba, Wall, Hardin, Steph Etc. if Frank N comes on to nth team, he will sit plenty. Even if we keep Melo, it's a slow footed front line and we may love Justin and trade Rose. The team may be marginally better than 2016.

But baker wouldn't be the starter if we signed Teague like I suggested in the title thread

Having a real floor general at the one spot would really change this team. I thought Rose could have been that player..I was wrong.

Teague would be a interesting pick up. I like Holiday as well but he is very injury prone. Would love to try and snatch D. Schroder from ATL if the Knicks do not draft a PG.

EnySpree wrote:All of a sudden you have a team that could possibly make the playoffs which is so ridiculous.

I don't wish injury upon any player in any sport.

That being said, to make the playoffs, the Knicks would need some critical injuries to other key players on Eastern teams. Also they'd need Melo to be injured for the entire season, starting at some point in the preseason.

I think they can squeeze into the 8th seed or fight for it playing team ball without Melo in the active starting lineup.

I just don't understand why people keep saying a legit point guard would make a difference. Melo refuses to move effectively while off the ball and when he gets the ball, he hogs it. How can a point guard set up the offense when he never sees the ball besides taking it over the half court line?

Some players are just that stupid. James Harden just refused to play team ball with Lin in the lineup. Now Harden basically handles the ball and runs the Houston offense. Melo just makes it all too hard. If you are going to hog the ball, at least actually run the entire offense. But that would take hard work and effort and sacrifice, and Melo ain't having none of dat, fo sho.

NYKBocker wrote:This season was lost not because of Melo. This was lost because of Rose. Melo is strictly a 4 now. You still need a long defensive minded SF to play along Melo. I love Kuz but his defense needs work. I agree with you though. Moving KP and Melo to the 5 and 4 and then getting players at the 1 and 3 will make this team a playoff team.

This. If KP can handle the center spot plug Lance or Holiday in as the small forward. Maybe Kuz can fill the Novak role and a bit more.
Rebuilding might be the best cenario. Melo might be gone. Will see!

TripleThreat wrote:

EnySpree wrote:All of a sudden you have a team that could possibly make the playoffs which is so ridiculous.

I don't wish injury upon any player in any sport.

That being said, to make the playoffs, the Knicks would need some critical injuries to other key players on Eastern teams. Also they'd need Melo to be injured for the entire season, starting at some point in the preseason.

I think they can squeeze into the 8th seed or fight for it playing team ball without Melo in the active starting lineup.

I just don't understand why people keep saying a legit point guard would make a difference. Melo refuses to move effectively while off the ball and when he gets the ball, he hogs it. How can a point guard set up the offense when he never sees the ball besides taking it over the half court line?

Some players are just that stupid. James Harden just refused to play team ball with Lin in the lineup. Now Harden basically handles the ball and runs the Houston offense. Melo just makes it all too hard. If you are going to hog the ball, at least actually run the entire offense. But that would take hard work and effort and sacrifice, and Melo ain't having none of dat, fo sho.

pure ignorance

Evidence has shown that Melo has played within a system when paired with a PG that knows what he is doing (Billups & Kidd). Even in this season with the GREAT RON BAKER, we have seen Baker attempt to run the offense away from Melo and even has called him off on quite a few occasions with Melo obliging.

I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

franco12 wrote:I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

absolutely,
imagine dwill was brought here to help melo, but on the cavs he has barely play 10 minutes in the entire playoffs.

Our entire bench would see little to no minutes on any of the top 10 teams in the leagues

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

absolutely,
imagine dwill was brought here to help melo, but on the cavs he has barely play 10 minutes in the entire playoffs.

Our entire bench would see little to no minutes on any of the top 10 teams in the leagues

so now willy is garbage?

Having thought about this, I think if we keep Melo because the trade return is just not worth it (which is a pretty good chance), I think I'd be happier with Ntilikina over Monk/DSJ. Playing off Melo/KP/Willy, I think we saw with Rose, how useless a point guard or high usage ballhandler on the outside is. Melo is high usage. KP will only get more high usage in his development. Willy has great touch. We need defensive minded guards who make plays that help the front court guys get easier looks and also make the front court guys play less help defense (their weakness).

I'm ready to go with a Ntilikina/Baker backcourt next year, around KP/Melo/Willy. I don't think we should put any playoff expectation, just that we will be competitive (33-35 wins) and much better defensively with more young player development.

If we could trade Lee for a second first round pick, get the guy that the Knicks seem to like in JJ, then the Knicks have some nice young developing players around Melo and a competitive team.

9 man regular rotation:
Willy/KP
KP/Kuz
Melo/Jackson
Baker/Holiday
Ntilikina/Randle

- Lots of players here who can improve and are 1-2 years or less into the league with Willy, KP, Kuz, Jackson, Baker. Nti, Randle (7).

Vet help/Depth
Noah
O'Quinn
Thomas
Vujacic (Played well for the vet min last year imo)

Would make sense to sign a veteran backup point guard.

That's a team that in the best case scenario sneaks into the playoffs, and likely is at 35 wins, only unlike last year, we develop more young players than just KP/Willy/Baker. We'd develop those 3 and new players with good NBA ceilings like Nti and may be JJ.

Please no big contracts to veteran point guards, wings or whatever. Preserve capspace for when Melo opts out in a year and leaves.

franco12 wrote:I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

Premature to say KP won't be a player at that special level. I think KP will keep improving and achieve a high level and as we upgrade around him it will make him even better. Once KP physically matures he's gonna dominate.

We had no DEFENSE!
Hornacek added no defense to his 82 game plan!

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:I think we're overstating what we had last year.

We did end up at 500 at one point, and the floor dropped after the Celts lost Christmas day if recall correctly.

However, we started the season abysmally with a point differential that pointed to a losing season. Maybe we over achieved, and fell back to earth.

We are our record. Worse case/best case we're in the lottery again next year, and I hope in a position to nab a top 3 pick.

Otherwise, where is our franchise changing talent coming from?

I don't think KP is it. I think he is very good, but he is not a talent on the level of LeBron, KD or Curry.

Baker, Thomas, Kuz, Willy - they're garbage players that would get may 10 minutes as back ups on teams with a winning record.

If we make the play offs this next season, we're knocked out in the first round.

absolutely,
imagine dwill was brought here to help melo, but on the cavs he has barely play 10 minutes in the entire playoffs.

Our entire bench would see little to no minutes on any of the top 10 teams in the leagues

so now willy is garbage?

Garbage in the sense that they haven't proven anything. Getting minutes on a 30 win team, scoring points - that doesn't mean anything.

We can't count on them to be foundational pieces.

I like them, they play hard. But they were outgunned, often.