Knicks · Phil on building a system... (page 4)
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:Phil's biggest issue was thinking he could make Melo change. Trying to put a playoff team around this career loser to see whether it would work was a bad plan. He should have let Melo go after his contract ran out. The stupid people who care more about Melo than they care about the Knicks would kill him no matter what. At the end of the day he has wasted 3 years tryinng to win Melo over. And the Knicks will pay the price for that. Then the Noah contract was a really dumb move as well. But getting rid of Shump and JR, trading for Rolo were all moves I can support.Trading Rolo for Rose was not a good move but it was necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Incredible Sulk couldn't even take a team with two 18 point scorers one of which happens to be a top 5 rim protector, a 3 and D guy and an up and coming center to the playoffs in the Leastern conference. But yeah he is a "multiple time allstar and scoring champion" and that's what we need to focus on, because the roster is never good enough for the UltimateDiva.
If we just cut this loser from the team that would still be 5 years too late.
See your still on here 24/7 trying to rid the Knicks of the guy who shipped out your fellow girlfriend. Let me ask you something...how long have you been a Knick fan/ Melo hater. My guess is since 2011. Will you now be leaving the UK site for the Nets forum since his ass will be shipped out now that they got a real PG in Russell? Or is that Melo's fault as well.
Phil and the Triangle will live another 2 years before going into permanent retirement. The Knicks will be back to square one when he leaves. KP will run far away. That's if Phil doesn't devalue him to a point he gives him away for scraps. Like everyone else he has had. But at least we will have Noah to build around. Lmao.
I totally disagree about the Triangle going into retirement. It's CHANGING but not going into retirement! If anything Phil is locking the franchise into the Triangle more like a Cement foundation. His roster moves are moving the team into this direction with players who are Triangle type players rather than AAU types.
The shift of the team's fortunes has already started. In case you and other Phil haters haven't noticed the team is adding talent and getting younger!!! These players are USED to SYSTEM basketball and aren't egomaniacs!!! So there's less chance Phil will have to get into it with these players!!!
his building a Euro team to play in the NBA, as if these same NBA-AAU-players haven't crushed those euro players in every Olympic basketball competition since 92 (with the exception of the 04 team).
Phills foundation he's so called building will be ripped to shreds upon his departure in 2 yrs. No one but him and Rambis are fixated on the triangle.
Nobody president/gm/or coach in the NBA is remotely interested in the triangle.
As successful as we were in the 90's did layden continue with the same approach and culture, did Isaiah follow laydens culture, did walsh follow Isaiah's culture.
Those Euros include KP who just had 29 teams calling to try and get. Clearly they think he's worth adding. How many teams calling about OK4, Winslow or Kaminsky for that matter? Spurs have used Euros very successfully!
Most of your assumptions hang on the hope that things will not get better. You realize that for your prediction to come true the Knicks would have to get worse over the next 2 years ands show no growth? None of the young talent would improve. Team work and execution would have to get worse and not better. IMO this is a sign of your BIAS as opposed to taking a realistic view of the team's prospects.
As for what follows Phil, just remember that he's grooming the entire organization and they will all be drafting, coaching and thinking in terms of the Triangle. I HIGHLY doubt that Dolan will get rid of his entire Front Office to start with complete strangers! That doesn't sound like Dolan at all. No, I think he'll be looking to continue with the men he's already got in place especially if there is a Playoff appearance in the next 2 years. 40 wins or any growth at all will be viewed positively by Dolan.
The team just has to be heading in the right direction and he'll be satisfied.
stanleybostitch wrote:The more I think on it, maybe Phil is trying to change the league, and not just the Knicks. If he can help the Knicks, based on system ball concepts, become a transcendent team once again (3-5yrs out), then he does more than bring chips to NY. He brings system ball back to the NBA (not that it has disappeared, but I might say it's an endangered species). Now that is a legacy.,
Warriors, Spurs, Celtics all play heavy system ball.
newyorknewyork wrote:Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:Phil's biggest issue was thinking he could make Melo change. Trying to put a playoff team around this career loser to see whether it would work was a bad plan. He should have let Melo go after his contract ran out. The stupid people who care more about Melo than they care about the Knicks would kill him no matter what. At the end of the day he has wasted 3 years tryinng to win Melo over. And the Knicks will pay the price for that. Then the Noah contract was a really dumb move as well. But getting rid of Shump and JR, trading for Rolo were all moves I can support.I think you are right about thinking Melo could change. He was a 12 or 13 year vet at that point and he was he was But I disagree that he tried to put a playoff team around Melo. Maybe he tried but he missed badly with the guys he went out and got. This past year the team was lacking talent. KP's first year, the roster was much less clumsy and had a shot but Melo got hurt in the Celtic game, Fish got fired, and Rambis took over. Things just fell apart.Trading Rolo for Rose was not a good move but it was necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Incredible Sulk couldn't even take a team with two 18 point scorers one of which happens to be a top 5 rim protector, a 3 and D guy and an up and coming center to the playoffs in the Leastern conference. But yeah he is a "multiple time allstar and scoring champion" and that's what we need to focus on, because the roster is never good enough for the UltimateDiva.
If we just cut this loser from the team that would still be 5 years too late.
Everyone, and i mean everyone thought the team he put together would be a playoff team last year, even all the hater new york media people thought he put together a good enough team to make the playoffs. So if all these new york media people and fans that think they know so much about basketball and putting teams together thought that team he put together was gonna be good then i guess they're/we're as dumb as Phil is.
"...If healthy", you left out one important piece of information there. Thats why people were largely against bringing in Noah and Rose. The risk of exactly what happened, happening. No one was dumb who saw that coming.
THIS!
I actually remember most of the projections being that we would be a lottery team. Hmmmm. Not sure where the "everyone, I mean everyone" is coming from!Really?? So when we had this starting lineup going into the season most people thought we would be a lottery team?? Hahahaha you're having a memory problem.
PG--D.Rose
SG--C.Lee
SF--C.Anthony
PF--K.Porzingis
C--J.Noah
Those names don't impress me. Maybe in 2012 they would have (other than KP obviously). You'll be in for a shock if you go back to the actual prediction threads on this forum, or better yet, look at the projections the metrics boards had coming into the season.
538's projection right before the start of season: 35-47
ESPN's RPM projection: 34.7 wins
Switch analytics (haven't looked closely at this): 31 winsHere's a good thread on our forum
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...Vegas had it at 38.5.
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...Aside from the easy picks like Warriors, Cavs, Spurs etc.... I see a good amount of misses.
Regardless, Knicks missing players wasn't due to lack of talent. Rose played to make his numbers look good for a new contract. These are variables that go either way. If he actually bought in and looked to feed his surrounding talent a little more like he said he was going to do then we win more games. Same with Melo. He showed dad Melo potential last season. Another variable that goes either way.
Noah may have been injured but KOQ and Willy were better then expected.
Rose has always been a shoot first guard, so why would phil think he would change all of a sudden? Same with Melo. Also, there are two sides of the ball, and the Knicks were not a good defensive team at all. As much as Willy showed on on the ofensive end, he was bad defensively, same with KP who struggled guarding out on the perimeter...
But he still brought a penetration and shot creation ability that we solely lacked and cried about all season the year before. Rose came in with full understanding from his own words that with Melo, KP, Lee that he could look to be somewhat more of a distributor. Now this doesn't mean 9ast per game but shouldn't have been 4.4. He has put up 6-8ast per game in the past. So with Rose penetration ability and him from his own mouth stating that he understands that he should be more of a distributor with talent like Melo and KP it should have happen. Rose career average is 6 per game. And he also has played some triangle under Thibbs with 2 lane clogging bigs. So its not like he came from a MDA style only to completely try and change his game for the Triangle.
Rose, Holiday, (#44 Dotson) was had for Grant, Calderon, Lopez. We also have 19mil freed up from Rose contract. A gamble was taken on Rose talent. We aren't getting Chris Paul of John Wall with that package.
We absolutely needed a guard who could get into the paint and play downhill, but Rose was too big of a gamble. Besides, trading for Rose and signing Noah goes against this supposed rebuilding theory. Trading for Rose meant Phil thought a penetrating guard was an immediate need. If we were truly rebuilding, its a long process and you add pieces methodically. So why did we need to fill that need ASAP? Were we rebuilding or not? Also, you didn't address the fact that we were poor defensively which was a major reason why we didn't make the playoffs...
newyorknewyork wrote:stanleybostitch wrote:The more I think on it, maybe Phil is trying to change the league, and not just the Knicks. If he can help the Knicks, based on system ball concepts, become a transcendent team once again (3-5yrs out), then he does more than bring chips to NY. He brings system ball back to the NBA (not that it has disappeared, but I might say it's an endangered species). Now that is a legacy.,Warriors, Spurs, Celtics all play heavy system ball.
Y but the winning hasn't translated to a change in how American college players (with exceptions, of course) learn and play the game. I wonder if we might see a movement towards more euro-style play in the NCAA's with more widespread adoption of system ball in the NBA.
Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:Phil's biggest issue was thinking he could make Melo change. Trying to put a playoff team around this career loser to see whether it would work was a bad plan. He should have let Melo go after his contract ran out. The stupid people who care more about Melo than they care about the Knicks would kill him no matter what. At the end of the day he has wasted 3 years tryinng to win Melo over. And the Knicks will pay the price for that. Then the Noah contract was a really dumb move as well. But getting rid of Shump and JR, trading for Rolo were all moves I can support.I think you are right about thinking Melo could change. He was a 12 or 13 year vet at that point and he was he was But I disagree that he tried to put a playoff team around Melo. Maybe he tried but he missed badly with the guys he went out and got. This past year the team was lacking talent. KP's first year, the roster was much less clumsy and had a shot but Melo got hurt in the Celtic game, Fish got fired, and Rambis took over. Things just fell apart.Trading Rolo for Rose was not a good move but it was necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Incredible Sulk couldn't even take a team with two 18 point scorers one of which happens to be a top 5 rim protector, a 3 and D guy and an up and coming center to the playoffs in the Leastern conference. But yeah he is a "multiple time allstar and scoring champion" and that's what we need to focus on, because the roster is never good enough for the UltimateDiva.
If we just cut this loser from the team that would still be 5 years too late.
Everyone, and i mean everyone thought the team he put together would be a playoff team last year, even all the hater new york media people thought he put together a good enough team to make the playoffs. So if all these new york media people and fans that think they know so much about basketball and putting teams together thought that team he put together was gonna be good then i guess they're/we're as dumb as Phil is.
"...If healthy", you left out one important piece of information there. Thats why people were largely against bringing in Noah and Rose. The risk of exactly what happened, happening. No one was dumb who saw that coming.
THIS!
I actually remember most of the projections being that we would be a lottery team. Hmmmm. Not sure where the "everyone, I mean everyone" is coming from!Really?? So when we had this starting lineup going into the season most people thought we would be a lottery team?? Hahahaha you're having a memory problem.
PG--D.Rose
SG--C.Lee
SF--C.Anthony
PF--K.Porzingis
C--J.Noah
Those names don't impress me. Maybe in 2012 they would have (other than KP obviously). You'll be in for a shock if you go back to the actual prediction threads on this forum, or better yet, look at the projections the metrics boards had coming into the season.
538's projection right before the start of season: 35-47
ESPN's RPM projection: 34.7 wins
Switch analytics (haven't looked closely at this): 31 winsHere's a good thread on our forum
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...Vegas had it at 38.5.
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...Aside from the easy picks like Warriors, Cavs, Spurs etc.... I see a good amount of misses.
Regardless, Knicks missing players wasn't due to lack of talent. Rose played to make his numbers look good for a new contract. These are variables that go either way. If he actually bought in and looked to feed his surrounding talent a little more like he said he was going to do then we win more games. Same with Melo. He showed dad Melo potential last season. Another variable that goes either way.
Noah may have been injured but KOQ and Willy were better then expected.
Rose has always been a shoot first guard, so why would phil think he would change all of a sudden? Same with Melo. Also, there are two sides of the ball, and the Knicks were not a good defensive team at all. As much as Willy showed on on the ofensive end, he was bad defensively, same with KP who struggled guarding out on the perimeter...
But he still brought a penetration and shot creation ability that we solely lacked and cried about all season the year before. Rose came in with full understanding from his own words that with Melo, KP, Lee that he could look to be somewhat more of a distributor. Now this doesn't mean 9ast per game but shouldn't have been 4.4. He has put up 6-8ast per game in the past. So with Rose penetration ability and him from his own mouth stating that he understands that he should be more of a distributor with talent like Melo and KP it should have happen. Rose career average is 6 per game. And he also has played some triangle under Thibbs with 2 lane clogging bigs. So its not like he came from a MDA style only to completely try and change his game for the Triangle.
Rose, Holiday, (#44 Dotson) was had for Grant, Calderon, Lopez. We also have 19mil freed up from Rose contract. A gamble was taken on Rose talent. We aren't getting Chris Paul of John Wall with that package.
We absolutely needed a guard who could get into the paint and play downhill, but Rose was too big of a gamble. Besides, trading for Rose and signing Noah goes against this supposed rebuilding theory. Trading for Rose meant Phil thought a penetrating guard was an immediate need. If we were truly rebuilding, its a long process and you add pieces methodically. So why did we need to fill that need ASAP? Were we rebuilding or not? Also, you didn't address the fact that we were poor defensively which was a major reason why we didn't make the playoffs...
Phil never said he was rebuilding. He said that he was trying to win but also have a future component.
KP has a strong rookie yr defensively. That was expected to continue. Lee, Holiday, Lance, KOQ, Noah. Were all are know for defense on their scouting report. With a projected lineup of Noah, KP, Melo, Lee, Rose. Only Rose and Melo were viewed as weak defenders. With the projected bench. Jennings, Holiday, Lance, KOQ. Only Jennings isnt known as a defender within his scouting report.
It didn't pan out that way but its not like defense was completely neglected.
newyorknewyork wrote:Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Uptown wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:GustavBahler wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:CrushAlot wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:Phil's biggest issue was thinking he could make Melo change. Trying to put a playoff team around this career loser to see whether it would work was a bad plan. He should have let Melo go after his contract ran out. The stupid people who care more about Melo than they care about the Knicks would kill him no matter what. At the end of the day he has wasted 3 years tryinng to win Melo over. And the Knicks will pay the price for that. Then the Noah contract was a really dumb move as well. But getting rid of Shump and JR, trading for Rolo were all moves I can support.I think you are right about thinking Melo could change. He was a 12 or 13 year vet at that point and he was he was But I disagree that he tried to put a playoff team around Melo. Maybe he tried but he missed badly with the guys he went out and got. This past year the team was lacking talent. KP's first year, the roster was much less clumsy and had a shot but Melo got hurt in the Celtic game, Fish got fired, and Rambis took over. Things just fell apart.Trading Rolo for Rose was not a good move but it was necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Incredible Sulk couldn't even take a team with two 18 point scorers one of which happens to be a top 5 rim protector, a 3 and D guy and an up and coming center to the playoffs in the Leastern conference. But yeah he is a "multiple time allstar and scoring champion" and that's what we need to focus on, because the roster is never good enough for the UltimateDiva.
If we just cut this loser from the team that would still be 5 years too late.
Everyone, and i mean everyone thought the team he put together would be a playoff team last year, even all the hater new york media people thought he put together a good enough team to make the playoffs. So if all these new york media people and fans that think they know so much about basketball and putting teams together thought that team he put together was gonna be good then i guess they're/we're as dumb as Phil is.
"...If healthy", you left out one important piece of information there. Thats why people were largely against bringing in Noah and Rose. The risk of exactly what happened, happening. No one was dumb who saw that coming.
THIS!
I actually remember most of the projections being that we would be a lottery team. Hmmmm. Not sure where the "everyone, I mean everyone" is coming from!Really?? So when we had this starting lineup going into the season most people thought we would be a lottery team?? Hahahaha you're having a memory problem.
PG--D.Rose
SG--C.Lee
SF--C.Anthony
PF--K.Porzingis
C--J.Noah
Those names don't impress me. Maybe in 2012 they would have (other than KP obviously). You'll be in for a shock if you go back to the actual prediction threads on this forum, or better yet, look at the projections the metrics boards had coming into the season.
538's projection right before the start of season: 35-47
ESPN's RPM projection: 34.7 wins
Switch analytics (haven't looked closely at this): 31 winsHere's a good thread on our forum
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...Vegas had it at 38.5.
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...Aside from the easy picks like Warriors, Cavs, Spurs etc.... I see a good amount of misses.
Regardless, Knicks missing players wasn't due to lack of talent. Rose played to make his numbers look good for a new contract. These are variables that go either way. If he actually bought in and looked to feed his surrounding talent a little more like he said he was going to do then we win more games. Same with Melo. He showed dad Melo potential last season. Another variable that goes either way.
Noah may have been injured but KOQ and Willy were better then expected.
Rose has always been a shoot first guard, so why would phil think he would change all of a sudden? Same with Melo. Also, there are two sides of the ball, and the Knicks were not a good defensive team at all. As much as Willy showed on on the ofensive end, he was bad defensively, same with KP who struggled guarding out on the perimeter...
But he still brought a penetration and shot creation ability that we solely lacked and cried about all season the year before. Rose came in with full understanding from his own words that with Melo, KP, Lee that he could look to be somewhat more of a distributor. Now this doesn't mean 9ast per game but shouldn't have been 4.4. He has put up 6-8ast per game in the past. So with Rose penetration ability and him from his own mouth stating that he understands that he should be more of a distributor with talent like Melo and KP it should have happen. Rose career average is 6 per game. And he also has played some triangle under Thibbs with 2 lane clogging bigs. So its not like he came from a MDA style only to completely try and change his game for the Triangle.
Rose, Holiday, (#44 Dotson) was had for Grant, Calderon, Lopez. We also have 19mil freed up from Rose contract. A gamble was taken on Rose talent. We aren't getting Chris Paul of John Wall with that package.
We absolutely needed a guard who could get into the paint and play downhill, but Rose was too big of a gamble. Besides, trading for Rose and signing Noah goes against this supposed rebuilding theory. Trading for Rose meant Phil thought a penetrating guard was an immediate need. If we were truly rebuilding, its a long process and you add pieces methodically. So why did we need to fill that need ASAP? Were we rebuilding or not? Also, you didn't address the fact that we were poor defensively which was a major reason why we didn't make the playoffs...
Phil never said he was rebuilding. He said that he was trying to win but also have a future component.
KP has a strong rookie yr defensively. That was expected to continue. Lee, Holiday, Lance, KOQ, Noah. Were all are know for defense on their scouting report. With a projected lineup of Noah, KP, Melo, Lee, Rose. Only Rose and Melo were viewed as weak defenders. With the projected bench. Jennings, Holiday, Lance, KOQ. Only Jennings isnt known as a defender within his scouting report.
It didn't pan out that way but its not like defense was completely neglected.
EXACTLY. But really at this point none of this matters. Phil's STATED goals were to find better On Ball Defenders, which he did. He wants players that can excel in a TEAM concept and he has added more of those kinds of players to the roster. As far as a process is concerned this is a good start.
Not having Picks meant that the process was going to be behind other teams but still Phil has managed to begin putting a good foundation in place. The only way to compete with Philly and Boston who have tons of picks is to HIT on the few you have. IMO Phil has been doing a good job of making the most of his picks recently. Hopefully we catch a few breaks on these Prospects as we did with Willy.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:Phil's biggest issue was thinking he could make Melo change. Trying to put a playoff team around this career loser to see whether it would work was a bad plan. He should have let Melo go after his contract ran out. The stupid people who care more about Melo than they care about the Knicks would kill him no matter what. At the end of the day he has wasted 3 years tryinng to win Melo over. And the Knicks will pay the price for that. Then the Noah contract was a really dumb move as well. But getting rid of Shump and JR, trading for Rolo were all moves I can support.Trading Rolo for Rose was not a good move but it was necessary to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Incredible Sulk couldn't even take a team with two 18 point scorers one of which happens to be a top 5 rim protector, a 3 and D guy and an up and coming center to the playoffs in the Leastern conference. But yeah he is a "multiple time allstar and scoring champion" and that's what we need to focus on, because the roster is never good enough for the UltimateDiva.
If we just cut this loser from the team that would still be 5 years too late.
See your still on here 24/7 trying to rid the Knicks of the guy who shipped out your fellow girlfriend. Let me ask you something...how long have you been a Knick fan/ Melo hater. My guess is since 2011. Will you now be leaving the UK site for the Nets forum since his ass will be shipped out now that they got a real PG in Russell? Or is that Melo's fault as well.
Phil and the Triangle will live another 2 years before going into permanent retirement. The Knicks will be back to square one when he leaves. KP will run far away. That's if Phil doesn't devalue him to a point he gives him away for scraps. Like everyone else he has had. But at least we will have Noah to build around. Lmao.
I totally disagree about the Triangle going into retirement. It's CHANGING but not going into retirement! If anything Phil is locking the franchise into the Triangle more like a Cement foundation. His roster moves are moving the team into this direction with players who are Triangle type players rather than AAU types.
The shift of the team's fortunes has already started. In case you and other Phil haters haven't noticed the team is adding talent and getting younger!!! These players are USED to SYSTEM basketball and aren't egomaniacs!!! So there's less chance Phil will have to get into it with these players!!!
his building a Euro team to play in the NBA, as if these same NBA-AAU-players haven't crushed those euro players in every Olympic basketball competition since 92 (with the exception of the 04 team).
Phills foundation he's so called building will be ripped to shreds upon his departure in 2 yrs. No one but him and Rambis are fixated on the triangle.
Nobody president/gm/or coach in the NBA is remotely interested in the triangle.
As successful as we were in the 90's did layden continue with the same approach and culture, did Isaiah follow laydens culture, did walsh follow Isaiah's culture.
Those Euros include KP who just had 29 teams calling to try and get. Clearly they think he's worth adding. How many teams calling about OK4, Winslow or Kaminsky for that matter? Spurs have used Euros very successfully!Most of your assumptions hang on the hope that things will not get better. You realize that for your prediction to come true the Knicks would have to get worse over the next 2 years ands show no growth? None of the young talent would improve. Team work and execution would have to get worse and not better. IMO this is a sign of your BIAS as opposed to taking a realistic view of the team's prospects.
As for what follows Phil, just remember that he's grooming the entire organization and they will all be drafting, coaching and thinking in terms of the Triangle. I HIGHLY doubt that Dolan will get rid of his entire Front Office to start with complete strangers! That doesn't sound like Dolan at all. No, I think he'll be looking to continue with the men he's already got in place especially if there is a Playoff appearance in the next 2 years. 40 wins or any growth at all will be viewed positively by Dolan.
The team just has to be heading in the right direction and he'll be satisfied.
Phil has given Hornacek plenty of tools to work with this year. I think the Knicks will surprise everyone and in doing so will earn Phil a contract extension.