Knicks · Hold up! Kyrie just requested a trade!!! (page 15)
Bonn1997 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:BRIGGS wrote:reub wrote:LeBron wouldn't tolerate Melo's lazy ass defense and selfish offense. Cleveland is not for Melo.I think melo is much better with Lebron.
He would be amazing.
He'd be better than here but he's still not as good a player as Irving and their roster is balanced poorly with 3 all-star forwards. I think there's a big risk Cleveland would underachieve and then things start to get ugly.
Yea but they also get a draft pick or two. Also in order for Cleveland to really complete with golden state there best chances are love at the 5 melo at the 4 and lebron at point forward .
fitzfarm wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:BRIGGS wrote:reub wrote:LeBron wouldn't tolerate Melo's lazy ass defense and selfish offense. Cleveland is not for Melo.I think melo is much better with Lebron.
He would be amazing.
He'd be better than here but he's still not as good a player as Irving and their roster is balanced poorly with 3 all-star forwards. I think there's a big risk Cleveland would underachieve and then things start to get ugly.Yea but they also get a draft pick or two. Also in order for Cleveland to really complete with golden state there best chances are love at the 5 melo at the 4 and lebron at point forward .
Love's defense is way worse at center. This creates problems for them. I'm not sure if Love goes to center or LeBron plays in the backcourt.
Bonn1997 wrote:fitzfarm wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:BRIGGS wrote:reub wrote:LeBron wouldn't tolerate Melo's lazy ass defense and selfish offense. Cleveland is not for Melo.I think melo is much better with Lebron.
He would be amazing.
He'd be better than here but he's still not as good a player as Irving and their roster is balanced poorly with 3 all-star forwards. I think there's a big risk Cleveland would underachieve and then things start to get ugly.Yea but they also get a draft pick or two. Also in order for Cleveland to really complete with golden state there best chances are love at the 5 melo at the 4 and lebron at point forward .
Love's defense is way worse at center. This creates problems for them. I'm not sure if Love goes to center or LeBron plays in the backcourt.
They would have to trade Kevin Love. Probably to Phoenix for Bledsoe, Warren & Chriss. Plus the assets the would get from the Knicks in any trade.
If the Knicks gets Irving that means Lebron isn't coming next year.
Ahem.
Bonn1997 wrote:TPercy wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TPercy wrote:I don't get why people keep citing kyrie before Lebron arrived. If anyone is paying attention to the finals he is a different player now and is clearly the most unstoppable guard in the league. We need to get this deal done.He's the most unstoppable player in the sense that he either stops the opponent or stops his own team with a 6 for 20, 2 assist game. Kyrie is a good player - no doubt - but not a great one. The only thing that's meaningfully different from when he first entered the league is scoring volume.
His advanced numbers come playoffs says a different story.
What metrics are you looking at? Playoffs is a ridiculously small sample anyway. I just looked at his career playoff win shares and box plus minus. I'd say he's played pretty well in the playoffs but underperformed relative to the production required for a supermax contract (which is what he'll probably get here). He also underperforms relative to what I'd need to justify trading lottery pick(s).
Playoff time is when Lebron and Co actually start trying and playing at expectation, so it made sense to cite his very good WS48 and efficiency come playoffs.(then again you could say that about a lot of players). Nevertheless, this dosent change the fact that Kyrie is a ridiculously talented guard whose vest years are ahead of him. In my opinion, I believe attaching picks to a potential deal makes sense considering that gallonari, butler, and cousins were all traded for picks and multiple young assets while posting similar numbers to kyrie at the age of 24 going to 25.
We have no clue about Frank but we know Kyrie.
As per RealGM Frank could be traded on Aug.4
Frank's lateral movement worries me a bit to deal with the great atheletes in the NBA.
He's also Phil Jackson's draft pick, which would be easier for the organization to trade.
Even if Melo doesn't waive his no trade to Cleveland we could still trade for Kyrie with Frank being the focal point.
Shoot I'd love to then trade Melo to Houston involving Capela coming back to us.
TLover wrote:Even if Melo doesn't waive his no trade to Cleveland we could still trade for Kyrie with Frank being the focal point.
You'd better hope Cleveland really, really likes Courtney Lee
TLover wrote:If the Knicks come out of this with Kyrie & maybe TJ Warren.. I'd be estatic.We have no clue about Frank but we know Kyrie.
As per RealGM Frank could be traded on Aug.4
Frank's lateral movement worries me a bit to deal with the great atheletes in the NBA.
He's also Phil Jackson's draft pick, which would be easier for the organization to trade.Even if Melo doesn't waive his no trade to Cleveland we could still trade for Kyrie with Frank being the focal point.
Shoot I'd love to then trade Melo to Houston involving Capela coming back to us.
I wouldn't mind that, except we're stuck with THJ now. If we're building around KP, it wouldn't make sense to have three questionable perimeter defenders surrounding the frontcourt. That's before we even figure out if KP and Willy can stay on the court for long periods of time. Warren, Hardaway and Kyrie would present some of the same defensive problems we had last year. I'd still be tempted to do a Kyrie trade anyway, but I think Ntilikina would probably be an ideal backcourt mate. Maybe Baker can develop and fill that role too. THJ would probably be best served coming off the bench. Warren wouldn't fit. My ideal wing would be More Harkless type, who brings defensive versatility and can keep defenses honest from three.
Time to get back to the dulldrums of summer in the NBA. This ain't happening people.
Rookie wrote:The odd thing here is that if Kyrie waits 1 more year, he likely gets what he wants, his own team, and he is still elligable for a super max. This just reaks like much to do about nothing. Even if Kyrie is impatient, there is no incentive for Cleveland to accomodate him unless they get everything they want in a trade which would be draft picks, players and cap relief.I think the unspoken part of this situation is Irving probably wants to get the heck out of Cleveland, the city. Can't say it publicly without alienating the fans so he floats this Lebron stuff. Like you said, if its about being in the alpha dog role all he has to do is wait a year and he's Westbrook minus Durant.Time to get back to the dulldrums of summer in the NBA. This ain't happening people.
Knicksfan wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Knicksfan wrote:You guys are funny:Sign Hardaway: Yeah, lets go full rebuild over time! Keep all draft picks!
Dennis Smith Jr. shines: Frank is awesome because he plays D. He will rule!
Kyrie demands trade: Give them all! Frank and picks! Kyrie doesn't do D but, he is star! Give!
SMH not really a fan of this. We are a franchise in need of a rebuild for years. Frank represents that: allowing a player grow up with us. Now Kyrie demands a trade because he wants to be the man (btw, Porzingis?) and we should go ALL IN? If he was good on D, I would agree. But thats not the case and the trade demand alone sets the alarms on for Kyrie and his priorities.
I define "all in" as giving up KP. In the past we didnt have young players to build around, mostly retreads. We can afford to give up a draft pick(s) at this time. Even with his D, Irving is one of the best PGs in the league, and in his prime. Dont believe Frank will ever be on the same level as Kyrie, as a PG.
Funny how the narrative with Frank changes with the players related to him.
Since it would hurt to think we missed the boat on Dennis Smith Jr., there its all about Frank being a winner.
Now Kyrie is available and people doubt Frank will ever become something like him? Simply to justify another starpuch move (albeit a young one)?
Funny, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You talk about this board as if its of one mind. Lots of different opinions here.
TPercy wrote:Marbury and Melo are nowhere near kyrie.
Kyrie is better than Marbury but I don't think the difference is huge. I think Marbury in his prime with LeBron and Love (hypothetically if the ages worked) could have won 1 championship in 3 years too.
Welpee wrote:Rookie wrote:The odd thing here is that if Kyrie waits 1 more year, he likely gets what he wants, his own team, and he is still elligable for a super max. This just reaks like much to do about nothing. Even if Kyrie is impatient, there is no incentive for Cleveland to accomodate him unless they get everything they want in a trade which would be draft picks, players and cap relief.I think the unspoken part of this situation is Irving probably wants to get the heck out of Cleveland, the city. Can't say it publicly without alienating the fans so he floats this Lebron stuff. Like you said, if its about being in the alpha dog role all he has to do is wait a year and he's Westbrook minus Durant.Time to get back to the dulldrums of summer in the NBA. This ain't happening people.
Or he is tired of Gilbert and the lack of front office. Believe they gave him a different story on their plans for him, at signing.
Then brought in LBJ and forgot about those conversations.
Bonn1997 wrote:One big difference between Marbury and Irving: when Marbury arrived he was on his fourth team by age 26. And pretty much each team he left got better after his departure. On the other hand, Jason Kidd had a similar career path but teams tended to get better when he arrived.TPercy wrote:Marbury and Melo are nowhere near kyrie.Kyrie is better than Marbury but I don't think the difference is huge. I think Marbury in his prime with LeBron and Love (hypothetically if the ages worked) could have won 1 championship in 3 years too.
HofstraBBall wrote:Welpee wrote:Rookie wrote:The odd thing here is that if Kyrie waits 1 more year, he likely gets what he wants, his own team, and he is still elligable for a super max. This just reaks like much to do about nothing. Even if Kyrie is impatient, there is no incentive for Cleveland to accomodate him unless they get everything they want in a trade which would be draft picks, players and cap relief.I think the unspoken part of this situation is Irving probably wants to get the heck out of Cleveland, the city. Can't say it publicly without alienating the fans so he floats this Lebron stuff. Like you said, if its about being in the alpha dog role all he has to do is wait a year and he's Westbrook minus Durant.Time to get back to the dulldrums of summer in the NBA. This ain't happening people.
Or he is tired of Gilbert and the lack of front office. Believe they gave him a different story on their plans for him, at signing.
Then brought in LBJ and forgot about those conversations.
Cleveland is going to want a package that either puts them back on par with GS or sets them up for the future. Why would they settle for less?
BRIGGS wrote:TripleThreat wrote:Welpee wrote:What leverage does Kyrie have? If Cleveland decides to move him they don't have to comply with his request to go to certain teams. He has three years left on his current deal.
Nike.The networks pay the NBA billions to air their games. The networks can only afford to do so because of corporate sponsors who buy commercial time/ad space/etc Many players in pro sports make more from their endorsements than they do their playing contracts.
Case in point. LeBron James was not married and had two children out of wedlock with his long time GF. As the story goes, Nike says, OK, this is bad for the image of the brand, it's bad because we want stability and the perception of it ( i.e. why Tiger Woods kept apologizing to his sponsors and not his wife during his bizarre "I'm A Sex Addict" mea culpa) So as the rumor goes, LBJ told his GF to flush her third pregnancy. Then they got hitched.
Irving doesn't ask for a trade without first consulting his agent AND consulting Nike. If you doubt the power of Nike, look at the Oregon college football program. It because a litmus test of how much money and influence could you pump into a non entity and make it a power house.
To get MAX VALUE in trading Irving, the Cavs need to trade him with about two years left on his contract. Trading him in his walk year just reduces too much leverage. In situations like this, it takes half a season or a full season for a team to explore a deal and see what might work. ( Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Melo in Denver, lots of these situations played out for a long time) He's not expecting to be traded now, he's expecting the timeline to work he's traded around this coming offseason, after the Warriors curb stomp the Cavs and LBJ clearly leaves for some other team.
Melo alone is not enough to trade for Irving. Everything is relative to what Irving might garner from the TWENTY EIGHT OTHER TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. The Knicks offer has to be the BEST OVERALL OFFER OF ALL TRADE OPTIONS THEY HAVE to work. It also has to operate as a win/win for both franchises in place.
If the Cavs say, Melo for Irving, you do that, without hesitation. Any team that would not ( and this trade would never get offered ever) would basically have a target on the back of it's entire front office. It would be seen as administrative negligence of a front office to turn a deal like that down.
If the Cavs say, Melo and Frank N and something else, you do that. No hesitation.
If the Cavs say, Melo and Zinger, with Melo really operating as the salary offset, you do that. No hesitation.
You take the best talent you can, and you figure the rest out later.
Yes, yes, someone will say Irving is a blackhole on defense. That's true. So what, then RETRADE HIM LATER. The point is to have OPTIONS. Irving on the roster opens up a ton of options all over the league. Not trading for him means the Knicks have no options period as Melo is a sunk cost and a millstone around the team's neck.
Irving should have been traded, the first minute LBJ came back to the Cavs roster. So the team could get a pivot, rim protection, wings and defense. But LBJ is just the village idiot. He keeps demanding stupid rosters that don't fit then blaming the teams front office later for being cap and asset locked for going on his BS whims to appease him. He's a player who transcends jut about any individual expectation of how one athlete can dominate a game. But he's just plain stupid otherwise. We are talking rock hard dumb on the level of Kevin Garnett and Emmitt Smith and even Harold Reynolds. ( you have to basically have the brain size of a parakeet to be as stupid as Reynolds, but LBJ finds a way...)
That LBJ can walk in front of the mic, really try very hard to not say another stupid thing and everyone seems to kiss his butt anyway is a testament to the sheer willpower of Nikes marketing department.
Irving is a franchise player. Not a top tier one, but still a franchise player. And whatever his weaknesses, Nike will make sure the league makes sure the refs give him every single advantage possible. If you can trade for a franchise player, you do it, and you don't look back.
No one from the Knicks or the NBA is going to trade Porzingis AND Carmelo for Kyrie.
Kyrie ran a 30 win team before obj came back. Look at his stats last year with lbs off the floor-8
Lbs turns Melo into super star status like the Olympics-- Melo is an absolute star on the Cavs with Lbj-- adding in some quality vets like Oquinn and Lee makes Cleveland as dangerous a team in the NBA again. We can't keep stripping our team for secondary stars-- you get on a treadmill.Carmelo vet vet restricted pick or zero. I'm not even that hot on Kyrie but for a Carmelo package I know it's something we can do. If we give the Cavs Melo Lee Oquinn they. Ompete with Golden State again. That would force us to take one junk contract back plus Kyrie
u were foaming at the mouth for Bledsoe and he ran a 24 win team
Bonn1997 wrote:I haven't gone through all 12 pages and don't know how much of this has been said but there are several reasons why I think Irving is going to cost a fortune - way more than just Melo if Melo even agrees to a trade there.1 - A 24 year old all-star coming off a strong season is going to cost more than a 32 year old coming off a weaker season automatically.
2 - Irving has a bigger list of teams he's willing to play for and there are 29 teams Cleveland could trade him to since he has no NTC.
3 - We'd probably want Irving more than they'd want Melo. Do they really need three all-star forwards? They can get a younger, better player who fits their roster both now and in the long-term in case Lebron leaves better than Melo does.
4 - They probably realize they can't win a championship with Melo instead of Irving. They're just a weaker, less balanced team than the one that lost last year.If the trade was just Melo for Irving or something close to that, sure I'd do it. If we're giving up a fortune to get Irving, no thanks.
Whats a fortune people wont part with Frank which is ridiculous. Someone actually said Frank was a better version than Jason Kidd. I'm sorry I've watched Frank play and I never once seen the court vision Kidd had. I think the kids tape is pretty ordinary, I dont think he was a top 10 pick
gunsnewing wrote:stanleybostitch wrote:This is where Mills and Perry prove their worth. Do they starphuck yet again and drain us of assets, or do they play this right and take Irving for Melo + spare parts (Lee, KOQ, Mindy, etc.)? Every single time we are on the path to a youth rebuild, we muck it up. My main concern is if Kyrie - who wants to be 'the man', and does not want to play with one of the greats - turns into a Melo-Rose 2.0 ball stopping ME player. WE're trying to build a TEAM here!I'd be concerned if we didn't already have KP in place. You don't build a team around 8th picks. Knicks should know.
Worst case scenario it blows up and we luck out in the lottery this time. And become a triple threat team that's young and still growing to its full potential.
We already blew yet another chance to build a contender through the draft alone. The key is to put together a talented young championship caliber core.
Not to mention marquee talent will come here, Irving has weight around the league no one is coming to play with Frank