TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:D Rose is no slouch of a player--anyone you add with LBJ goes up a few notches on top of it.
I don't put anything past James, but this past year rose was the definition of a slouch.
Low assist rate, low efg%, no defense.
His penetration is only useful if it leads to converted scores.
It did not.
How many people on this Earth can put up 20 points game in the NBA shooting 47% from the field?
39.
230 can score more efficiently.
109 pass for assists at a better rate.
Since you asked.
For 2mm that is officially the best value signing this year by a mile. LBJ is a differentiatior defensively--he makes everyone else buetter
By this logic Cleveland can sign any low efficiency, high volume shooter who plays NO defense and it'd be a "value" signing.
Low-efficiency? 47.1 % isnt the best eFG but its great FG% for a guard. When we were at the end of games--would you rather have Carmelo taking his 18 foot fallaway or Derek driving to the hoop?
No Derrick Rose at 2mm$ on a great team is a steal. They will keep him to 20 minutes and get him for 50% and quality play.
36 pgs and 55 sgs had better true shooting percentages than rose. That's 88 guards.. just the qualifying ones. Nearly 3 per each team.
I understand nobody likes to be wrong but he simply is not an above average scorer anymore, as his having to settle for the vets min because no one spent any cap or exception money attests.
Whatever you think of his current shooting ability, neatly 100 NBA guards are better.
meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
Heres a metric of value with Kyrie
Hes played an average of 63 games a year since he was drafted in his prime athletic years. He misses on average 20 games a year. If he wasnt on LNJs team who carries it--hed be just another gunner who doesnt play that much D
In the year before LBJ came
Kyrie was 43% 20-6-3.5
Rose last year was 47% 18 -4.5 4
So for 3-4 assets and 150mm $ you can have the oft injured Irving(and just like Noah--you KNOW you are buying tarnished goods)for slightly more production---nah unless its for melo and junk---steer clear
BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
Heres a metric of value with Kyrie
Hes played an average of 63 games a year since he was drafted in his prime athletic years. He misses on average 20 games a year. If he wasnt on LNJs team who carries it--hed be just another gunner who doesnt play that much D
In the year before LBJ came
Kyrie was 43% 20-6-3.5
Rose last year was 47% 18 -4.5 4
So for 3-4 assets and 150mm $ you can have the oft injured Irving(and just like Noah--you KNOW you are buying tarnished goods)for slightly more production---nah unless its for melo and junk---steer clear
You're demonstrating the same blindspot so many sports fans have.
All I said was Irving isn't as bad as Rose defensively. I have said nothing else about him.
Respond to what I actually post, not what you assume I think.
Rose, by himself, isn't a good offensive player anymore, which means he isn't a good player anymore.
Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
Heres a metric of value with Kyrie
Hes played an average of 63 games a year since he was drafted in his prime athletic years. He misses on average 20 games a year. If he wasnt on LNJs team who carries it--hed be just another gunner who doesnt play that much D
In the year before LBJ came
Kyrie was 43% 20-6-3.5
Rose last year was 47% 18 -4.5 4
So for 3-4 assets and 150mm $ you can have the oft injured Irving(and just like Noah--you KNOW you are buying tarnished goods)for slightly more production---nah unless its for melo and junk---steer clear
You're demonstrating the same blindspot so many sports fans have.
All I said was Irving isn't as bad as Rose defensively. I have said nothing else about him.
Respond to what I actually post, not what you assume I think.
Rose, by himself, isn't a good offensive player anymore, which means he isn't a good player anymore.
Hes not a good 3 point shooter--but hes a good offensive player.
There were 40 NBA players who avg 18 or more
Out of those 40 Rose ranked 13 in FG% NOT eFG just FG. So you are talking about a player who is one of 14 players in the NBA who did 18 and 47%+ Hes not a great 3 point shooter and he was "smart" to move away from that shot to focus on the mid range and drive.
doomed wrote:Favorite DRose NY Knicks moment? Today.
Mine was when he went home to Chicago in a huff and faced no disciplinary action. That was the point at which our season went down the toilet.
I also liked it when Hornacek asked him to shoot more threes (toward the end of the season), so he refused to shoot any for a few games.
I have fond memories of him berating the teams defense after every game despite being the laziest and worst defender on the team.
So many great memories- he's defenitely up there with Jerome James and Bargniani, as my most treasured Knicks
Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
I don't believe any of the metrics provide a basis for comparison across teams because what your teammates are doing is absolutely worked into them. These comparisons are silly. When Rose was on a good defensive team in Chicago his metrics looked better as well. Evening then the Cavs are probably better defensively than Chicago was then.
BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
Heres a metric of value with Kyrie
Hes played an average of 63 games a year since he was drafted in his prime athletic years. He misses on average 20 games a year. If he wasnt on LNJs team who carries it--hed be just another gunner who doesnt play that much D
In the year before LBJ came
Kyrie was 43% 20-6-3.5
Rose last year was 47% 18 -4.5 4
So for 3-4 assets and 150mm $ you can have the oft injured Irving(and just like Noah--you KNOW you are buying tarnished goods)for slightly more production---nah unless its for melo and junk---steer clear
You're demonstrating the same blindspot so many sports fans have.
All I said was Irving isn't as bad as Rose defensively. I have said nothing else about him.
Respond to what I actually post, not what you assume I think.
Rose, by himself, isn't a good offensive player anymore, which means he isn't a good player anymore.
Hes not a good 3 point shooter--but hes a good offensive player.
There were 40 NBA players who avg 18 or more
Out of those 40 Rose ranked 13 in FG% NOT eFG just FG. So you are talking about a player who is one of 14 players in the NBA who did 18 and 47%+ Hes not a great 3 point shooter and he was "smart" to move away from that shot to focus on the mid range and drive.
No has mentioned Rose's knee- which is a Giant Negative.
But I agree, I think, Briggs.
What I Saw from Rose last year was a player that could drive and finish and who had a pretty solid pull up, mid range game.
He struggled getting the call on a lot of his drives. I think some of that got to him, and a fresh start with a leader like LeBron should help straighten his head out.
The question on value is really a health one - can he actually play a 'full' season and not break his knee?
Good value for Cavs.
Now in Irving trade talks, they can focus on other positions, and don't need to look for a PG to come back in the deal.
Unlike Melo, LBJ plays with a pass first, find the open man mentality. This is infectious. That's why I think DRose will fit better there. The culture and mindset of players there is just different.
Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:D Rose is no slouch of a player--anyone you add with LBJ goes up a few notches on top of it.
I don't put anything past James, but this past year rose was the definition of a slouch.
Low assist rate, low efg%, no defense.
His penetration is only useful if it leads to converted scores.
It did not.
How many people on this Earth can put up 20 points game in the NBA shooting 47% from the field?
39.
230 can score more efficiently.
109 pass for assists at a better rate.
Since you asked.
For 2mm that is officially the best value signing this year by a mile. LBJ is a differentiatior defensively--he makes everyone else better
By this logic Cleveland can sign any low efficiency, high volume shooter who plays NO defense and it'd be a "value" signing.
Yeah, and if you're shooting almost entirely 2s, 47% isn't really that good. His 3 point % is terrible (22%) and his 2 point percentage (.487) is a little below average.
BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
Heres a metric of value with Kyrie
Hes played an average of 63 games a year since he was drafted in his prime athletic years. He misses on average 20 games a year. If he wasnt on LNJs team who carries it--hed be just another gunner who doesnt play that much D
In the year before LBJ came
Kyrie was 43% 20-6-3.5
Rose last year was 47% 18 -4.5 4
So for 3-4 assets and 150mm $ you can have the oft injured Irving(and just like Noah--you KNOW you are buying tarnished goods)for slightly more production---nah unless its for melo and junk---steer clear
You're demonstrating the same blindspot so many sports fans have.
All I said was Irving isn't as bad as Rose defensively. I have said nothing else about him.
Respond to what I actually post, not what you assume I think.
Rose, by himself, isn't a good offensive player anymore, which means he isn't a good player anymore.
Hes not a good 3 point shooter--but hes a good offensive player.
There were 40 NBA players who avg 18 or more
Out of those 40 Rose ranked 13 in FG% NOT eFG just FG. So you are talking about a player who is one of 14 players in the NBA who did 18 and 47%+ Hes not a great 3 point shooter and he was "smart" to move away from that shot to focus on the mid range and drive.
But he's a below average 2 point shooter and passer too. The best use for him would be just the guy who shoots technical free throws.
I'm exaggerating (though what I wrote about 2s and passing is correct). I would have taken him on a $2.1 mil deal *if* he was willing to be a bench player. I'd want to first try out Frank and Baker as starters and go to Rose only as a last resort. It says a lot that no team offered him more than 1 year, $2.1 mil. I think all of the league is using the advanced stats not FG% or PPG.
Knickoftime wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:D Rose is no slouch of a player--anyone you add with LBJ goes up a few notches on top of it.
I don't put anything past James, but this past year rose was the definition of a slouch.
Low assist rate, low efg%, no defense.
His penetration is only useful if it leads to converted scores.
It did not.
2016/17 rose
triangle, mass confusion, dysfunctional team ,rape trial, awol, no leader, no real team direction.
Exactly who on the knicks had a good yr, other than willy
His numbers were an improvement over 2015-16.
At his nadir rose was handing out néarly 8 assists a game and getting to the line 7 times.
He is no longer that player and hasn't been in half a decade.
wouldn't that be his zenith?
nyknickzingis wrote:Good value for Cavs.
Now in Irving trade talks, they can focus on other positions, and don't need to look for a PG to come back in the deal.Unlike Melo, LBJ plays with a pass first, find the open man mentality. This is infectious. That's why I think DRose will fit better there. The culture and mindset of players there is just different.
Excellent point that highlights the game-changer (culturally and tactically) that LBJ is for a team. Rose will improve there, without question, on both ends of the court.
Can't believe the Cavs are serious about starting Rose with his medical history. Thought the Cavs getting Rose to come off the bench, for some instant offense was a good idea, but starting? Good luck with that.
I guess Rose is an insurance policy against Kyrie leaving. But their insurance policy is likely going to need an insurance policy. Better them than us.
GustavBahler wrote:Can't believe the Cavs are serious about starting Rose with his medical history. Thought the Cavs getting Rose to come off the bench, for some instant offense was a good idea, but starting? Good luck with that. I guess Rose is an insurance policy against Kyrie leaving. But their insurance policy is likely going to need an insurance policy. Better them than us.
Nobody has said what his role will be.
Rose was very careful about his rehab last year and seemingly the last few years have been about the next contract. All things were about this moment.
Thru the turmoil he was about himself. The environment was not a good one for any knick last year with coach change and Triangle Drama.
Up until the AWOL I was very hopeful about his career not as MVP type, but a darn good guard in the NBA.
Karma is a bitch. We don't know what the awol was all about but I think he just melted down under the pressure of it and living up to his $14mil per year addidas contract that still like 8 years left.
Yep, the dude signed a 14mil per year for 12 deal for shoes.
Back to karma.........
all of what he has been about got him.....
$2.1 for one year.
meloshouldgo wrote:Knickoftime wrote:meloshouldgo wrote:TheGame wrote:Knickoftime wrote:TheGame wrote:This is great news. With Rose there the Cavs will feel more comfortable about trading Irving. A team of Rose, smith, Melo, Lebron, and Love would be pretty tough on offense.
Was exactly does a guy have to do to demonstrate he's not a good NBA shooter?
Being able to take a shot is a legitimate NBS skill.
Be able to score points efficiently in relation to how many shots you take is far more important.
He is Nba mediocre at that.
Rose is decent. His weakness is no defense and no 3pt shooting. He actually can shoot 3s but for some reason he just wants to drive. I think he just has the mindset that I can drive on anyone so why shoot 3s. Anyway, he probably a better defender than Irving, so in the Cavs mind; he probably gives them 75% of what Irving gave them. Then you add what they can get for Irving and the cave might be able to put together an even stronger team.
Agree, people think Rose was a bad defender, wait till they see Kyrie. LOL
Produce a metric that shows Irving was worse.
I don't believe any of the metrics provide a basis for comparison across teams because what your teammates are doing is absolutely worked into them.
So in other words your basis for comparison doesn't exist either way.
These comparisons are silly. When Rose was on a good defensive team in Chicago his metrics looked better as well.
Better, but still on the lower half of that team.
And he was a better, healthier player then.
