Knicks · Riley " cavs asking way too much" for Irving (page 1)
According to Wojnarowski's report, "With the Cleveland-Miami history, there's little chance for a deal unless the Heat offered an overwhelming package."
Cleveland was caught in a bad position here. They are asking for the moon to try to get a moderate offer in the end. They want the lowball to drive the price to the middle, where if they started on moderate terms, they'd just get lowballed into the ground.
Irving is refusing to talk to the Cavs, so they are pretty much forced to trade him at this point.
TripleThreat wrote:GamesmanshipCleveland was caught in a bad position here. They are asking for the moon to try to get a moderate offer in the end. They want the lowball to drive the price to the middle, where if they started on moderate terms, they'd just get lowballed into the ground.
Irving is refusing to talk to the Cavs, so they are pretty much forced to trade him at this point.
Did he learn that tactic from KP?
Sort of like what we were for Kristaps.
Can't blame them, he is their KP for them. Drafted franchise level talent.
I don't think teams will pay up that much.
To make the deal today, it would take Melo plus two first round picks.
Could we get an additional first round pick using Lee to a third team? Maybe.
If we really pushed, I think we could get it done.
Melo, 2018 pick (protected top 10, top 7 for 2019, top 5 for 2020) and another late first round pick from 2018 by sending Lee to a playoff contender.
CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom for
StarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom for
Knicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom forKnicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
I hope you're right but we haven't heard that the Knicks have closed off this trade either. We don't know who will cave first.
nixluva wrote:if its for a elite level player then i understand but melo just wasnt that type of player. I think the other poster was saying that it was the knicks fault but the reality is melo is what he is. Irving might not be that type of player eitherStarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom forKnicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
nyknickzingis wrote:They are asking for two first round picks on top of a player or group of players that can play for them.
Sort of like what we were for Kristaps.
Can't blame them, he is their KP for them. Drafted franchise level talent.I don't think teams will pay up that much.
To make the deal today, it would take Melo plus two first round picks.
Could we get an additional first round pick using Lee to a third team? Maybe.
If we really pushed, I think we could get it done.
Melo, 2018 pick (protected top 10, top 7 for 2019, top 5 for 2020) and another late first round pick from 2018 by sending Lee to a playoff contender.
I think the cost is 2 low restriction # 1s. A willy g and Carmello -- that's what Riley intimated
Heat said no to drag ic and winslow
BRIGGS wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:They are asking for two first round picks on top of a player or group of players that can play for them.
Sort of like what we were for Kristaps.
Can't blame them, he is their KP for them. Drafted franchise level talent.I don't think teams will pay up that much.
To make the deal today, it would take Melo plus two first round picks.
Could we get an additional first round pick using Lee to a third team? Maybe.
If we really pushed, I think we could get it done.
Melo, 2018 pick (protected top 10, top 7 for 2019, top 5 for 2020) and another late first round pick from 2018 by sending Lee to a playoff contender.I think the cost is 2 low restriction # 1s. A willy g and Carmello -- that's what Riley intimated
Heat said no to drag ic and winslow
So an all NBA rookie player (which as might as well count as a lottery pick) and potentially 2 more lottery picks? If essentially 3 potential lottery picks and soon $200 mil is the cost to get Kyrie and keep him here long-term, that's insane. Obviously it appears the Knicks are saying no to whatever Cleveland wants right now. So that's a good thing.
Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:They are asking for two first round picks on top of a player or group of players that can play for them.
Sort of like what we were for Kristaps.
Can't blame them, he is their KP for them. Drafted franchise level talent.I don't think teams will pay up that much.
To make the deal today, it would take Melo plus two first round picks.
Could we get an additional first round pick using Lee to a third team? Maybe.
If we really pushed, I think we could get it done.
Melo, 2018 pick (protected top 10, top 7 for 2019, top 5 for 2020) and another late first round pick from 2018 by sending Lee to a playoff contender.I think the cost is 2 low restriction # 1s. A willy g and Carmello -- that's what Riley intimated
Heat said no to drag ic and winslow
So an all NBA rookie player (which as might as well count as a lottery pick) and potentially 2 more lottery picks? If essentially 3 potential lottery picks and soon $200 mil is the cost to get Kyrie and keep him here long-term, that's insane. Obviously it appears the Knicks are saying no to whatever Cleveland wants right now. So that's a good thing.
Knicks aren't in desperation mode. They still have the Houston Deal if the Cavs don't play ball. The Cavs are the ones not wanting to go into camp with a huge controversy on their hands. Knicks just need to stay patient at this point.
nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom forKnicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
For all that talk of the melo deal, the package nj gave for dwill was way better.
StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:if its for a elite level player then i understand but melo just wasnt that type of player. I think the other poster was saying that it was the knicks fault but the reality is melo is what he is. Irving might not be that type of player eitherStarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom forKnicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
The deal for Melo wasn't great but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be either. Anthony Randolph, Felton, Chandler, Gallinari, Moz, a future first and a right to swap for Melo and Billups who turned into Tyson.
Randolph was used to dump Eddy Curry's contract to the Wolves, Felton and a right to swap was used to land Billups who was viewed as the better player even if older and held an expiring, Melo was swapped for Chandler, Gallo, Moz and a future pick.
The problem is the combination of moves pre Melo trade, Melo trade, & post Melo trade. All of that *combined* lead the Knicks to grid lock.
newyorknewyork wrote:You're right in hindsight about what we gave up BUT we still gave up most of our assets which hurts you unless you are getting a real elite level player with a overall game. Melo is/was a great scorer ive never disputed that. HOWEVER he just doesnt ahve the overall game that elevates other players. I just think Melo fits better playing with a better player and he can just focus on the scoring.StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:if its for a elite level player then i understand but melo just wasnt that type of player. I think the other poster was saying that it was the knicks fault but the reality is melo is what he is. Irving might not be that type of player eitherStarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom forKnicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
The deal for Melo wasn't great but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be either. Anthony Randolph, Felton, Chandler, Gallinari, Moz, a future first and a right to swap for Melo and Billups who turned into Tyson.
Randolph was used to dump Eddy Curry's contract to the Wolves, Felton and a right to swap was used to land Billups who was viewed as the better player even if older and held an expiring, Melo was swapped for Chandler, Gallo, Moz and a future pick.
The problem is the combination of moves pre Melo trade, Melo trade, & post Melo trade. All of that *combined* lead the Knicks to grid lock.
CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.
It's 2017... we just hired 2 new guys to be the gm and assistant gm....
Is it possible to finally get out right? Truth is they got it wrong for all the reasons you said. What if this new rebuilding with 25 and under guys and playing to the strengths of the roster thing they are preaching actually works?
EnySpree wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.It's 2017... we just hired 2 new guys to be the gm and assistant gm....
Is it possible to finally get out right? Truth is they got it wrong for all the reasons you said. What if this new rebuilding with 25 and under guys and playing to the strengths of the roster thing they are preaching actually works?
It depends on the details. If they get Irving, then how much they give up for him will be an indication of whether they know how to pull off good deals or not and whether we should be confident in the rebuild.
EnySpree wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.It's 2017... we just hired 2 new guys to be the gm and assistant gm....
Is it possible to finally get out right? Truth is they got it wrong for all the reasons you said. What if this new rebuilding with 25 and under guys and playing to the strengths of the roster thing they are preaching actually works?
I think the approach they are taking is great. I love that there is a plan and that it is realistic. If they give up too much for this type of deal I worry that it will be another management team punting on their plan to chase a star. Kyrie is a game changer though.
StarksEwing1 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:You're right in hindsight about what we gave up BUT we still gave up most of our assets which hurts you unless you are getting a real elite level player with a overall game. Melo is/was a great scorer ive never disputed that. HOWEVER he just doesnt ahve the overall game that elevates other players. I just think Melo fits better playing with a better player and he can just focus on the scoring.StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:if its for a elite level player then i understand but melo just wasnt that type of player. I think the other poster was saying that it was the knicks fault but the reality is melo is what he is. Irving might not be that type of player eitherStarksEwing1 wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The Knicks gave up a lot for a 26 year old super star. Getting a guy that talented at 25-26 is a huge get for any team. But the Knicks were never able to build a team around him. Assets given up, bad signings, systems that don't suit the roster etc. The Knicks are not a team that should chase Kyrie.well melo i dont think you could build around unless we got a better player so melo could be the 2nd guy which fits him better.as for irving as talented as he is its not worth giving updates a kings ransom forKnicks must agree with you since no deal is done. Knicks could offer a package but clearly Perry is not looking to repeat a Melo from Denver type deal.
I actually don't think any team will do that. I think that Melo deal has been a warning to the league not to do King's Ransom deals.
The deal for Melo wasn't great but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be either. Anthony Randolph, Felton, Chandler, Gallinari, Moz, a future first and a right to swap for Melo and Billups who turned into Tyson.
Randolph was used to dump Eddy Curry's contract to the Wolves, Felton and a right to swap was used to land Billups who was viewed as the better player even if older and held an expiring, Melo was swapped for Chandler, Gallo, Moz and a future pick.
The problem is the combination of moves pre Melo trade, Melo trade, & post Melo trade. All of that *combined* lead the Knicks to grid lock.
All phases hurt. Knicks gave up multiple up multiple assets pre Melo trade. Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.
Now if your saying the Knicks should stay away from Melo regardless of price because he would end up bringing the Knicks down regardless due to his selfishness then that would be another topic. But trading for Melo shouldn't be isolated from the yrs of poor decisions prior and post.
newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks picked up the option on Billups expiring in April and then amnestied him in Dec. When if they saved the amnesty for Amare's potential knees failing and let Billups walk as a FA. They could have freed up close to 40 mil in cap space and built a team that could have lasted for 5 years.
The further we get away from that year, the more urban legends start to build around the decisions made.
For one, Stat just completed the first year of his contract ... and he was very good. The idea of standing pat 'just in case' is the kind of argument fans make - it's ridiculously impractical.
Rightly or wrongly, they got what they for thought at the time were two all-star players.
The Knick's had a glaring need for a defensive stopper at center and they got one. They went for it instead of hedging their bets for year's down the line 'just in case.'
It did not work - no question, but what they did and why they did it was perfectly reasonable.