Knicks · Knicks doomed themselves when...... (page 1)

In 1997 after firing Don Nelson in fear ewing would leave, we resigned Patrick at Age 35 to a 4 year contract at top money at the time!!
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/03/...

Say what you want about Riley leaving, JVG, etc etc but this short term stupidity catering to Ewings massive ego was plain ignorant and doomed the team for years.
It could have ended but we perpetuated the ignorance with Dice deal, and the ruinous Isiah era.

Nelson and Grunfeld saw the end of the smash mouth "Badboy" era and sought to build a team to run. Instead we catered to Ewings demand we hire his advocate in JVG who preached a game that allowed Ewing to be the centerpiece of the offense and thus ensured he'd resign at new contract at the end of the season. Age 35 with bad knees.

For all the past mistakes one must recognize not the process but the outcome even of recent events: We moved Melo while he he still had value and rebuilding without a bonafide brand starphuch name to headline!!! KP is still only 22! Is this not different than anything we have ever done since 1985?
More evidence? For all his mystical Starphuch powers , when Phil got irrational we ate his contract and moved on. We now have a reasonable President with year of experience (some not so good) in a role he is really suited for and a real basketball GM. I say that because really since Checketts had Grunfeld this team has been under the control of Dolan.

1. Layden was a neophyte and could not operate without Dolan's interference. Neophyte execs don't decide on $100million contracts such as Dice's. Dolans infatuation with Vin Baker in this era.
2. Isiah was Dolans Rasputin. Totally smitten with Grifter Isiah he allowed him to run the franchise into the abyss.
3. Donnie Walsh, a good man had a reputation of making smart moves in Indiana over a long time and was forced on Dolan by a league that not thrilled with the bad publicity knicks were generating with Isiah. Walsh made a good move in hiring MDA but was then instructed to liquidate the team to make room for Lebron. Instead he signs Amare. No where in Donnies history has he ever made a move like Amare? IF DOlan does not like Donnie, how would he approve of a $100mil deal UNINSURED!!
I conclude that AMare was Dolans Idea. Dolan stepped over Donnie to make the Melo deal.
4. Grunwald was a competent educated man who was left over from the Isiah era. Dolan never allowed DOnnie to hire a successor. Instead Dolan had previously brought on Mark Warkentein who was "exec of the year" to manage a future with CAA and Melo. The move to get Bargnani was a typical blunder but at least the last one we made.
5. Dolan hires Mills who was about to sign up with the NBA league office to be Knicks president. They do an exhaustive McKinsey study and its determined among other things dolan needs to stay out of basketball operations. Dolan is seduced by the aura of Phil and throws money at him until he relents. The Starphuch move basically makes Mills in name the team GM while Phil has final say on everything.
6. PHil did reset the culture and only Noah's contract for 17mil a year was his only long term blunder. had limited draft resources and having traded the no. 1 for bargnani. Phil was batshyt crazy and now we have a true bonafide GM.

Scott Perry is not from the Popovich school (who himself was born from Larry Browns rib and from his "Tree) but brings a rational approach. Not a neophyte because Dolan is not in the process anymore. MIlls is the president and while we still have the taint of AnuchaGate, lets not forget Mills was a sort of Neophyte executive who catered to Dolan. It stands to reason that upon he returned he negotiated his terms and its logical he asked for autonomy to some extent before coming back. This is just my opinion.

Knicks have turned the corner. Does that mean we are on the rise yet? Not sure. Does that mean was are insulated from stupidity or taking risks? Not really. But we seem to have a plan for youth and willingness from ownership to be patient.

Some fans like having a stick up their asses. They complain about it over and over but at the end of the day they don't take it out.
Fans don't decide on roster construction.

Nalod was very disappointed in Phil. I was hopeful he would be the figurehead of a great knick renaissance. I bought into the Starphuch and the Zen powers.
He did leave the franchise in better shape when ousted then when he came in and the direction set. I don't think Dolan needed 60mil to do that, but its his money!
Thus, I am hopeful this franchise is on a proper course.

Nalod wrote:In 1997 after firing Don Nelson in fear ewing would leave, we resigned Patrick at Age 35 to a 4 year contract at top money at the time!!
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/03/...

Say what you want about Riley leaving, JVG, etc etc but this short term stupidity catering to Ewings massive ego was plain ignorant and doomed the team for years.
It could have ended but we perpetuated the ignorance with Dice deal, and the ruinous Isiah era.

Nelson and Grunfeld saw the end of the smash mouth "Badboy" era and sought to build a team to run. Instead we catered to Ewings demand we hire his advocate in JVG who preached a game that allowed Ewing to be the centerpiece of the offense and thus ensured he'd resign at new contract at the end of the season. Age 35 with bad knees.

For all the past mistakes one must recognize not the process but the outcome even of recent events: We moved Melo while he he still had value and rebuilding without a bonafide brand starphuch name to headline!!! KP is still only 22! Is this not different than anything we have ever done since 1985?
More evidence? For all his mystical Starphuch powers , when Phil got irrational we ate his contract and moved on. We now have a reasonable President with year of experience (some not so good) in a role he is really suited for and a real basketball GM. I say that because really since Checketts had Grunfeld this team has been under the control of Dolan.

1. Layden was a neophyte and could not operate without Dolan's interference. Neophyte execs don't decide on $100million contracts such as Dice's. Dolans infatuation with Vin Baker in this era.
2. Isiah was Dolans Rasputin. Totally smitten with Grifter Isiah he allowed him to run the franchise into the abyss.
3. Donnie Walsh, a good man had a reputation of making smart moves in Indiana over a long time and was forced on Dolan by a league that not thrilled with the bad publicity knicks were generating with Isiah. Walsh made a good move in hiring MDA but was then instructed to liquidate the team to make room for Lebron. Instead he signs Amare. No where in Donnies history has he ever made a move like Amare? IF DOlan does not like Donnie, how would he approve of a $100mil deal UNINSURED!!
I conclude that AMare was Dolans Idea. Dolan stepped over Donnie to make the Melo deal.
4. Grunwald was a competent educated man who was left over from the Isiah era. Dolan never allowed DOnnie to hire a successor. Instead Dolan had previously brought on Mark Warkentein who was "exec of the year" to manage a future with CAA and Melo. The move to get Bargnani was a typical blunder but at least the last one we made.
5. Dolan hires Mills who was about to sign up with the NBA league office to be Knicks president. They do an exhaustive McKinsey study and its determined among other things dolan needs to stay out of basketball operations. Dolan is seduced by the aura of Phil and throws money at him until he relents. The Starphuch move basically makes Mills in name the team GM while Phil has final say on everything.
6. PHil did reset the culture and only Noah's contract for 17mil a year was his only long term blunder. had limited draft resources and having traded the no. 1 for bargnani. Phil was batshyt crazy and now we have a true bonafide GM.

Scott Perry is not from the Popovich school (who himself was born from Larry Browns rib and from his "Tree) but brings a rational approach. Not a neophyte because Dolan is not in the process anymore. MIlls is the president and while we still have the taint of AnuchaGate, lets not forget Mills was a sort of Neophyte executive who catered to Dolan. It stands to reason that upon he returned he negotiated his terms and its logical he asked for autonomy to some extent before coming back. This is just my opinion.

Knicks have turned the corner. Does that mean we are on the rise yet? Not sure. Does that mean was are insulated from stupidity or taking risks? Not really. But we seem to have a plan for youth and willingness from ownership to be patient.

Some fans like having a stick up their asses. They complain about it over and over but at the end of the day they don't take it out.
Fans don't decide on roster construction.

Nalod was very disappointed in Phil. I was hopeful he would be the figurehead of a great knick renaissance. I bought into the Starphuch and the Zen powers.
He did leave the franchise in better shape when ousted then when he came in and the direction set. I don't think Dolan needed 60mil to do that, but its his money!
Thus, I am hopeful this franchise is on a proper course.

Yeah, Don Nelson wanted to have the offense run through Anthony Mason and put Ewing at the top of the key. Brilliant. Yeah, not handing the team over to Don Nelson really set the organization back.

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:In 1997 after firing Don Nelson in fear ewing would leave, we resigned Patrick at Age 35 to a 4 year contract at top money at the time!!
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/03/...

Say what you want about Riley leaving, JVG, etc etc but this short term stupidity catering to Ewings massive ego was plain ignorant and doomed the team for years.
It could have ended but we perpetuated the ignorance with Dice deal, and the ruinous Isiah era.

Nelson and Grunfeld saw the end of the smash mouth "Badboy" era and sought to build a team to run. Instead we catered to Ewings demand we hire his advocate in JVG who preached a game that allowed Ewing to be the centerpiece of the offense and thus ensured he'd resign at new contract at the end of the season. Age 35 with bad knees.

For all the past mistakes one must recognize not the process but the outcome even of recent events: We moved Melo while he he still had value and rebuilding without a bonafide brand starphuch name to headline!!! KP is still only 22! Is this not different than anything we have ever done since 1985?
More evidence? For all his mystical Starphuch powers , when Phil got irrational we ate his contract and moved on. We now have a reasonable President with year of experience (some not so good) in a role he is really suited for and a real basketball GM. I say that because really since Checketts had Grunfeld this team has been under the control of Dolan.

1. Layden was a neophyte and could not operate without Dolan's interference. Neophyte execs don't decide on $100million contracts such as Dice's. Dolans infatuation with Vin Baker in this era.
2. Isiah was Dolans Rasputin. Totally smitten with Grifter Isiah he allowed him to run the franchise into the abyss.
3. Donnie Walsh, a good man had a reputation of making smart moves in Indiana over a long time and was forced on Dolan by a league that not thrilled with the bad publicity knicks were generating with Isiah. Walsh made a good move in hiring MDA but was then instructed to liquidate the team to make room for Lebron. Instead he signs Amare. No where in Donnies history has he ever made a move like Amare? IF DOlan does not like Donnie, how would he approve of a $100mil deal UNINSURED!!
I conclude that AMare was Dolans Idea. Dolan stepped over Donnie to make the Melo deal.
4. Grunwald was a competent educated man who was left over from the Isiah era. Dolan never allowed DOnnie to hire a successor. Instead Dolan had previously brought on Mark Warkentein who was "exec of the year" to manage a future with CAA and Melo. The move to get Bargnani was a typical blunder but at least the last one we made.
5. Dolan hires Mills who was about to sign up with the NBA league office to be Knicks president. They do an exhaustive McKinsey study and its determined among other things dolan needs to stay out of basketball operations. Dolan is seduced by the aura of Phil and throws money at him until he relents. The Starphuch move basically makes Mills in name the team GM while Phil has final say on everything.
6. PHil did reset the culture and only Noah's contract for 17mil a year was his only long term blunder. had limited draft resources and having traded the no. 1 for bargnani. Phil was batshyt crazy and now we have a true bonafide GM.

Scott Perry is not from the Popovich school (who himself was born from Larry Browns rib and from his "Tree) but brings a rational approach. Not a neophyte because Dolan is not in the process anymore. MIlls is the president and while we still have the taint of AnuchaGate, lets not forget Mills was a sort of Neophyte executive who catered to Dolan. It stands to reason that upon he returned he negotiated his terms and its logical he asked for autonomy to some extent before coming back. This is just my opinion.

Knicks have turned the corner. Does that mean we are on the rise yet? Not sure. Does that mean was are insulated from stupidity or taking risks? Not really. But we seem to have a plan for youth and willingness from ownership to be patient.

Some fans like having a stick up their asses. They complain about it over and over but at the end of the day they don't take it out.
Fans don't decide on roster construction.

Nalod was very disappointed in Phil. I was hopeful he would be the figurehead of a great knick renaissance. I bought into the Starphuch and the Zen powers.
He did leave the franchise in better shape when ousted then when he came in and the direction set. I don't think Dolan needed 60mil to do that, but its his money!
Thus, I am hopeful this franchise is on a proper course.

Yeah, Don Nelson wanted to have the offense run through Anthony Mason and put Ewing at the top of the key. Brilliant. Yeah, not handing the team over to Don Nelson really set the organization back.

Didn't Don also want to trade Pat for Rony Seikaly and Sherman Douglas. I give Don points for his booze induced vision for the direction the team needed to go, but his handling of the roster he had was bad. It wasn't a coincidence that we started winning when Jeff took over. There are so many turning points in out cursed history that it's hard to just pick one or two. I do agree that Don Nelson was a bad choice. Blame falls on both sides with that move. We knew what we were getting and he knew what he was getting into.

The 2 biggest mistakes in NY sports over the past 20 yrs (and probably more) are letting Riley and Belichek leave NY. Just imagine how the Jets and Knicks histories would have changed for the better.

Geez... 97?

it's so hard to go back and look at missteps.

My point is we've made bad decisions when we have thought we were 1 piece away.

We gave up assets to clear room to go after lebron- two mistakes there - giving up picks to erase salary, then spending it on Amare when Lebron spurned us.

Keep David Lee, keep Chandler, keep Gallinari.

I could go on.

Keep Zach! Keep Jamal Crawford!

Don't trade for Eddy Curry, Don't trade for Melo.

It's enough to go mad!

The Dyess trade was a definitely a low point. I remember driving to a friends to watch the draft and listening to that rumored trade and praying it wouldn't happen.

A guy tried to argue with me about Kiki vandeweghe at work the other day. I promptly of him to gtfoh with that bullshit. It's 2017.... lose the beeper and get a cell phone motherfucker

Went downhill when we traded Ewing for trash. Now we are stuck with Tim Trashaway Jr

there you go Timm..take the ball to the basket...stop settling...

I thought this was about Hardaway Jr.

I mean, the bad play, the losses and the doom would feel better without this ridiculous contract. Noah was here already, Timmy was masochism.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:In 1997 after firing Don Nelson in fear ewing would leave, we resigned Patrick at Age 35 to a 4 year contract at top money at the time!!
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/03/...

Say what you want about Riley leaving, JVG, etc etc but this short term stupidity catering to Ewings massive ego was plain ignorant and doomed the team for years.
It could have ended but we perpetuated the ignorance with Dice deal, and the ruinous Isiah era.

Nelson and Grunfeld saw the end of the smash mouth "Badboy" era and sought to build a team to run. Instead we catered to Ewings demand we hire his advocate in JVG who preached a game that allowed Ewing to be the centerpiece of the offense and thus ensured he'd resign at new contract at the end of the season. Age 35 with bad knees.

For all the past mistakes one must recognize not the process but the outcome even of recent events: We moved Melo while he he still had value and rebuilding without a bonafide brand starphuch name to headline!!! KP is still only 22! Is this not different than anything we have ever done since 1985?
More evidence? For all his mystical Starphuch powers , when Phil got irrational we ate his contract and moved on. We now have a reasonable President with year of experience (some not so good) in a role he is really suited for and a real basketball GM. I say that because really since Checketts had Grunfeld this team has been under the control of Dolan.

1. Layden was a neophyte and could not operate without Dolan's interference. Neophyte execs don't decide on $100million contracts such as Dice's. Dolans infatuation with Vin Baker in this era.
2. Isiah was Dolans Rasputin. Totally smitten with Grifter Isiah he allowed him to run the franchise into the abyss.
3. Donnie Walsh, a good man had a reputation of making smart moves in Indiana over a long time and was forced on Dolan by a league that not thrilled with the bad publicity knicks were generating with Isiah. Walsh made a good move in hiring MDA but was then instructed to liquidate the team to make room for Lebron. Instead he signs Amare. No where in Donnies history has he ever made a move like Amare? IF DOlan does not like Donnie, how would he approve of a $100mil deal UNINSURED!!
I conclude that AMare was Dolans Idea. Dolan stepped over Donnie to make the Melo deal.
4. Grunwald was a competent educated man who was left over from the Isiah era. Dolan never allowed DOnnie to hire a successor. Instead Dolan had previously brought on Mark Warkentein who was "exec of the year" to manage a future with CAA and Melo. The move to get Bargnani was a typical blunder but at least the last one we made.
5. Dolan hires Mills who was about to sign up with the NBA league office to be Knicks president. They do an exhaustive McKinsey study and its determined among other things dolan needs to stay out of basketball operations. Dolan is seduced by the aura of Phil and throws money at him until he relents. The Starphuch move basically makes Mills in name the team GM while Phil has final say on everything.
6. PHil did reset the culture and only Noah's contract for 17mil a year was his only long term blunder. had limited draft resources and having traded the no. 1 for bargnani. Phil was batshyt crazy and now we have a true bonafide GM.

Scott Perry is not from the Popovich school (who himself was born from Larry Browns rib and from his "Tree) but brings a rational approach. Not a neophyte because Dolan is not in the process anymore. MIlls is the president and while we still have the taint of AnuchaGate, lets not forget Mills was a sort of Neophyte executive who catered to Dolan. It stands to reason that upon he returned he negotiated his terms and its logical he asked for autonomy to some extent before coming back. This is just my opinion.

Knicks have turned the corner. Does that mean we are on the rise yet? Not sure. Does that mean was are insulated from stupidity or taking risks? Not really. But we seem to have a plan for youth and willingness from ownership to be patient.

Some fans like having a stick up their asses. They complain about it over and over but at the end of the day they don't take it out.
Fans don't decide on roster construction.

Nalod was very disappointed in Phil. I was hopeful he would be the figurehead of a great knick renaissance. I bought into the Starphuch and the Zen powers.
He did leave the franchise in better shape when ousted then when he came in and the direction set. I don't think Dolan needed 60mil to do that, but its his money!
Thus, I am hopeful this franchise is on a proper course.

Yeah, Don Nelson wanted to have the offense run through Anthony Mason and put Ewing at the top of the key. Brilliant. Yeah, not handing the team over to Don Nelson really set the organization back.

Didn't Don also want to trade Pat for Rony Seikaly and Sherman Douglas. I give Don points for his booze induced vision for the direction the team needed to go, but his handling of the roster he had was bad. It wasn't a coincidence that we started winning when Jeff took over. There are so many turning points in out cursed history that it's hard to just pick one or two. I do agree that Don Nelson was a bad choice. Blame falls on both sides with that move. We knew what we were getting and he knew what he was getting into.

Not to mention Dallas went to the NBA finals the year AFTER he left and his coaching tactics caused Chris Webber to bounce after only one year of dealing with him in Golden State. Though I do give him credit for drafting Dirk.

Caseloads wrote:Went downhill when we traded Ewing for trash. Now we are stuck with Tim Trashaway Jr

Correction...We got a couple of veryvalueablepicks for Ewing and proceeded to turn them into trash.

Allanfan20 wrote:

Caseloads wrote:Went downhill when we traded Ewing for trash. Now we are stuck with Tim Trashaway Jr

Correction...We got a couple of veryvalueablepicks for Ewing and proceeded to turn them into trash.

The glen rice for shandon anderson and howard eisley trade knocked us off the tracks, had they just kept Nene and camby we would of still been a good team

Went down when Dolan took over.....

Welpee wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:In 1997 after firing Don Nelson in fear ewing would leave, we resigned Patrick at Age 35 to a 4 year contract at top money at the time!!
http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/03/...

Say what you want about Riley leaving, JVG, etc etc but this short term stupidity catering to Ewings massive ego was plain ignorant and doomed the team for years.
It could have ended but we perpetuated the ignorance with Dice deal, and the ruinous Isiah era.

Nelson and Grunfeld saw the end of the smash mouth "Badboy" era and sought to build a team to run. Instead we catered to Ewings demand we hire his advocate in JVG who preached a game that allowed Ewing to be the centerpiece of the offense and thus ensured he'd resign at new contract at the end of the season. Age 35 with bad knees.

For all the past mistakes one must recognize not the process but the outcome even of recent events: We moved Melo while he he still had value and rebuilding without a bonafide brand starphuch name to headline!!! KP is still only 22! Is this not different than anything we have ever done since 1985?
More evidence? For all his mystical Starphuch powers , when Phil got irrational we ate his contract and moved on. We now have a reasonable President with year of experience (some not so good) in a role he is really suited for and a real basketball GM. I say that because really since Checketts had Grunfeld this team has been under the control of Dolan.

1. Layden was a neophyte and could not operate without Dolan's interference. Neophyte execs don't decide on $100million contracts such as Dice's. Dolans infatuation with Vin Baker in this era.
2. Isiah was Dolans Rasputin. Totally smitten with Grifter Isiah he allowed him to run the franchise into the abyss.
3. Donnie Walsh, a good man had a reputation of making smart moves in Indiana over a long time and was forced on Dolan by a league that not thrilled with the bad publicity knicks were generating with Isiah. Walsh made a good move in hiring MDA but was then instructed to liquidate the team to make room for Lebron. Instead he signs Amare. No where in Donnies history has he ever made a move like Amare? IF DOlan does not like Donnie, how would he approve of a $100mil deal UNINSURED!!
I conclude that AMare was Dolans Idea. Dolan stepped over Donnie to make the Melo deal.
4. Grunwald was a competent educated man who was left over from the Isiah era. Dolan never allowed DOnnie to hire a successor. Instead Dolan had previously brought on Mark Warkentein who was "exec of the year" to manage a future with CAA and Melo. The move to get Bargnani was a typical blunder but at least the last one we made.
5. Dolan hires Mills who was about to sign up with the NBA league office to be Knicks president. They do an exhaustive McKinsey study and its determined among other things dolan needs to stay out of basketball operations. Dolan is seduced by the aura of Phil and throws money at him until he relents. The Starphuch move basically makes Mills in name the team GM while Phil has final say on everything.
6. PHil did reset the culture and only Noah's contract for 17mil a year was his only long term blunder. had limited draft resources and having traded the no. 1 for bargnani. Phil was batshyt crazy and now we have a true bonafide GM.

Scott Perry is not from the Popovich school (who himself was born from Larry Browns rib and from his "Tree) but brings a rational approach. Not a neophyte because Dolan is not in the process anymore. MIlls is the president and while we still have the taint of AnuchaGate, lets not forget Mills was a sort of Neophyte executive who catered to Dolan. It stands to reason that upon he returned he negotiated his terms and its logical he asked for autonomy to some extent before coming back. This is just my opinion.

Knicks have turned the corner. Does that mean we are on the rise yet? Not sure. Does that mean was are insulated from stupidity or taking risks? Not really. But we seem to have a plan for youth and willingness from ownership to be patient.

Some fans like having a stick up their asses. They complain about it over and over but at the end of the day they don't take it out.
Fans don't decide on roster construction.

Nalod was very disappointed in Phil. I was hopeful he would be the figurehead of a great knick renaissance. I bought into the Starphuch and the Zen powers.
He did leave the franchise in better shape when ousted then when he came in and the direction set. I don't think Dolan needed 60mil to do that, but its his money!
Thus, I am hopeful this franchise is on a proper course.

Yeah, Don Nelson wanted to have the offense run through Anthony Mason and put Ewing at the top of the key. Brilliant. Yeah, not handing the team over to Don Nelson really set the organization back.

Didn't Don also want to trade Pat for Rony Seikaly and Sherman Douglas. I give Don points for his booze induced vision for the direction the team needed to go, but his handling of the roster he had was bad. It wasn't a coincidence that we started winning when Jeff took over. There are so many turning points in out cursed history that it's hard to just pick one or two. I do agree that Don Nelson was a bad choice. Blame falls on both sides with that move. We knew what we were getting and he knew what he was getting into.

Not to mention Dallas went to the NBA finals the year AFTER he left and his coaching tactics caused Chris Webber to bounce after only one year of dealing with him in Golden State. Though I do give him credit for drafting Dirk.

you guys have it wrong. Nelson wanted to trade Ewing for Shaq and he was spot on. Everyone knew Shaq was leaving for a big market (LA). Nelson said they would never get a better offer than Ewing and Knicks could pay Shaq. Ewing learned about that and it poisoned the lockerroom ending in Nelson's firing. It wasnt quite as simple as Don wanting to run the offense through Mason.