Knicks · Okafor for such a ridiculous price could be a big winner of a deal (page 2)

BigDaddyG wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:A second rounder for Okafor is nothing. The Knicks just have too many fives. It still might be worth it.

My bet is people would be shocked on how good he would be with KP. It also opens up other potential moves. I once thought the guy was the 2nd coming of a version of Tim Duncan. The guy would still be the same age as Duncan coming into the nBA--hes 21?

Im well aware that we have to focus on the guard/wing position--but I personally couldnt pass it up. Its the same sentiment we heard with Kanter

Unlike Willy, Okafor isn't tied up for a couple of years. He can simply move to more desirable situation at the end of the year. We need to settle our current situation first before we consider adding more projects. Why would Okafor want to sit on the bench for us when he can already do that in Philly. Trading a 2 would just be a waste of an asset. I could see it if we were able to flip a few of our 5s in the process. We already have a young reclamation project to worry about.

Id like to keep him. Id like to see him play 60 games here. Oquinn is done here. Kanter is a potential free agent looking at a big pay day. Id make Ok4 the #2 right now. Hes more skilled than Willy and bigger.

I think we can use other assets in moves to increase the talent at the guard and wing positions. A 2nd round pick in 2021 or so is a bag of beans.

BRIGGS wrote:TT you have post after post killing Kanter--guess what---theyd be all wrong. Same thing w OK4--hes a steal with a 2nd rounder and a low cost asset that we can give 50-60 games of play to.

I make post after post evaluation Kanter across HIS ENTIRE CAREER, not just the handful of games he has played as a Knick. I also am considering he's playing hard now for an extension, what happens if and when he gets paid again ( his previous history doesn't paint a rosy picture)

Also, if the Knicks trade for Okafor, as you suggest, where are MINUTES FOR HIM GOING TO COME FROM?

If the Knicks traded Kuz for him, before they cut Kuz, a guy they were going to dump anyway, that's one thing. If the Knicks sign him as a free agent to a short prove it contract, that's another thing. Trading an actual positive asset for this guy is insane.

If the Knicks one day consider giving Patrick Beverly a long term contract when he should be in his decline phase, that's one thing. The guy plays harder than 90 percent of the entire league and has played that way his entire career. At least he has a history you can try to bet on. But to bet on a guy like OK4 who has shown and proven he just doesn't give a f**k, well at least until he wants a new contract or wants to stay in the league, why bother except as a true flier.

OK4 is a steal if he costs you close to nothing, only costs you a little cap space, is easily cuttable and there are actual minutes for him. None of those are conditions that you are actually presenting here.

BRIGGS wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think no one wants to trade for him because he's Gonna get waived anyway... Okafor is in the exact same boat Willy is in. Super talent but something missing in the charecters department. I think Okafor is legit embarrassed and has a chip on his shoulder. He got into better physical shape dio he cares. Willy just doesn't seem to care on his end.

Id be willing to give them a future 2 in 2021 or something. Its a steal--the guy was a #3 pick 2 years ago and avg 17-7 when healthy. He looked good beginning of year. If he practices and trains hard--he can be better than Kanter with ease--he gives us that 6-11 265 pounder who can protect KP. This is a no brainer to me--what is the odds of a 2nd rounder being better than OK4---none. You either believe a guy will work hard or not--I do not see this as anything but pure upside of a deal. Yes he is unrestricted BUT you get him in here--hes on the team. Kanter asks for 85mm Im not paying that--ill pay Ok4 a 1/3 of that.

Also I know some people will say why do you care about the frontcourt anyway? Potentially Kanter and Oquinn are gonzo--I like Ok4 as Kanters back up-- and Willy can stay 3.

Oquinn Beasley Lee Sessions all for sale.

of course if we can buy low i would take a shot

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:TT you have post after post killing Kanter--guess what---theyd be all wrong. Same thing w OK4--hes a steal with a 2nd rounder and a low cost asset that we can give 50-60 games of play to.

I make post after post evaluation Kanter across HIS ENTIRE CAREER, not just the handful of games he has played as a Knick. I also am considering he's playing hard now for an extension, what happens if and when he gets paid again ( his previous history doesn't paint a rosy picture)

Also, if the Knicks trade for Okafor, as you suggest, where are MINUTES FOR HIM GOING TO COME FROM?

If the Knicks traded Kuz for him, before they cut Kuz, a guy they were going to dump anyway, that's one thing. If the Knicks sign him as a free agent to a short prove it contract, that's another thing. Trading an actual positive asset for this guy is insane.

If the Knicks one day consider giving Patrick Beverly a long term contract when he should be in his decline phase, that's one thing. The guy plays harder than 90 percent of the entire league and has played that way his entire career. At least he has a history you can try to bet on. But to bet on a guy like OK4 who has shown and proven he just doesn't give a f**k, well at least until he wants a new contract or wants to stay in the league, why bother except as a true flier.

OK4 is a steal if he costs you close to nothing, only costs you a little cap space, is easily cuttable and there are actual minutes for him. None of those are conditions that you are actually presenting here.

You can believe your own bull. Sht but I think a second rd pick for a guy who was picked #3 2 years ago who already avg 17-7 at 19 is a no brainer. Listen philly might have a top 5 player playing c --and a good back up in Holmes -- I do not think we have high talent at 5 despite having the depth. It's a no brainer. -- right now I'll give them two ending contracts and a 2021 2 nd rider for ok4. Heck we gave them 2 2s for willy g

nykshaknbake wrote:Them declining his last year kills his trade value. I don't see him getting big minutes, so he'll just sign elsewhere at season's end. If some kind of reasonable extension could be worked out, I'd roll the dice for the price of a 2nd rounder.

Having an interior player who can actually post and score a basket could be a very integral part to have as a core WITH KP. KP has played MUCH better with Kanter because he takes a certain focus off of KP. I think Okafor--IF given a chance can do more than that. I think it would also focus KP more on the D.
Free agency? really all our guys are free agents--and Kanter is looking at possibly 5 years 90-100mm. NO way is Okafor going to get that. If we got him for a 2--played him 15-20 minutes a night--and he plays hard and well--we could probably keep him down to 3-5 years 7-10mm.(If proven) Thats why you spend the 2 here--its good money spent. Noah is a dud Oquinn is a goner and Kanter is going to cost a lot of money. So far for some reason Willy G has taken a big step back.

Gudris wrote:We need to keep Kanter whatever cost is, his energy and mindset is very valuable. Okafor is opposite

Oh man--well before Kanter comes here--Kanter sucks Kanter does not play D Kanter does not hustle doesnt care. Id bet a lot of money Ok4 is HIGHLY motivated.

CrushAlot wrote:A second rounder for Okafor is nothing. The Knicks just have too many fives. It still might be worth it.

The problem is the Sixers declined his option for next season, so if we landed him we could not exceed $6mil to re-sign him, meaning if he performed well any other team could swoop in and sign him, I suspect thats why teams over the cap don't want to give up second rounder for him (they'd essentially give up a second rounder and spend time developing him for someone else)

smackeddog wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:A second rounder for Okafor is nothing. The Knicks just have too many fives. It still might be worth it.

The problem is the Sixers declined his option for next season, so if we landed him we could not exceed $6mil to re-sign him, meaning if he performed well any other team could swoop in and sign him, I suspect thats why teams over the cap don't want to give up second rounder for him (they'd essentially give up a second rounder and spend time developing him for someone else)

NY is a team that will spend. I dont think any team will give him much more than 6-7mm next year. If we bring him in with a pathway to success IF he works hard--a second rd pick is a nothing asset to give up. We can promise him what he give us in performance. Im NOT giving up a 2018 or 2019--would have to be 2021. If I lose it oh well--worthy risk. Golden State seems to buy 2s in the 30 every year.

knicks1248 wrote:Okafor's is player the Knicks should stay as far away as possible, unless they are willy to take Noah's contract.

Favors would be the better target in FA.

newyorknewyork wrote:He isn't a good enough defender or rebounder. Kanter makes up for his limitations with amazing pts and rebounder per possession and his defense has been decent this yr. While we probably can't keep Kanter. Thinking we can plug in any type of lumbering big to replace what he does is silly.

Favors would be the better target in FA.

why can't we keep kanter?

BRIGGS wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:Them declining his last year kills his trade value. I don't see him getting big minutes, so he'll just sign elsewhere at season's end. If some kind of reasonable extension could be worked out, I'd roll the dice for the price of a 2nd rounder.

Having an interior player who can actually post and score a basket could be a very integral part to have as a core WITH KP. KP has played MUCH better with Kanter because he takes a certain focus off of KP. I think Okafor--IF given a chance can do more than that. I think it would also focus KP more on the D.
Free agency? really all our guys are free agents--and Kanter is looking at possibly 5 years 90-100mm. NO way is Okafor going to get that. If we got him for a 2--played him 15-20 minutes a night--and he plays hard and well--we could probably keep him down to 3-5 years 7-10mm.(If proven) Thats why you spend the 2 here--its good money spent. Noah is a dud Oquinn is a goner and Kanter is going to cost a lot of money. So far for some reason Willy G has taken a big step back.

Or the Knicks could wait and see if Kanter opts in or opts out ( he will likely Opt In as the market is going to collapse for FA bigs this offseason and probably for several offseasons to come) and in the RARE case he opts out, and if OK4 is available and cheap, then sign him then on a short prove it deal WITHOUT THE COST OF TRADING POSITIVE ASSETS. You know, a scenario that adjusts for ACTUALLY HAVING MINUTES AVAILABLE TO PLAY A PLAYER.

Monta Ellis
Gilbert Arenas
Omer Asik ( not the current version, the useful version with the Bulls)
Marcin Gortat
Isiah Thomas 2
Nik Jokic
Draymond Green
Marc Gasol

Not all 2nd round picks pan out like this, but a couple do. You are asking this team, already gutted of 2nd round picks, to trade a lottery ticket to a possible cost controlled player who will potentially hit his prime in a Knicks uniform. For a no defense malcontent who is lazy and where his skill set doesn't actually translate well to the modern space and pace game.

Briggs, you keep telling me I'm full of sh*t, yet you do nothing to address the actual points of concern I bring up regarding OK4.

He doesn't play defense. He's actually a low IQ defender who doesn't protect the rim.

Your response? Ignore it. Point out his rookie year when he got a ton of burn and before the league could really adjust to him and formalize scouting on him. Ignore what those empty stats cost his team on the other end of floor. Ignore that he's using the press like a Negan baseball bat to whine and whing because he realized he was too lazy and a jerk for too long.

This place is a "discussion forum", except you aren't here to discuss jack sh*t, you are here to broadcast at people and then just ignore that parts that you don't want to hear. Let's stick to our normal routine Briggs, it works. You randomly start reactionary threads on topics that lack any semblance of critical thinking skills or any reflection on the modern NBA marketplace. I come in, tell you that you are wrong, again, in detail. You get resentful. Everyone else might get an opportunity to expand the original ridiculous premise to talk about the actual NBA and possibly learn more about the resource management side of the game. You are a means to an end to generate site traffic. You are human click bait. Do what others are doing Briggs, use the opportunity to actually learn something about the game itself. You won't, but you should.

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:He isn't a good enough defender or rebounder. Kanter makes up for his limitations with amazing pts and rebounder per possession and his defense has been decent this yr. While we probably can't keep Kanter. Thinking we can plug in any type of lumbering big to replace what he does is silly.

Favors would be the better target in FA.

why can't we keep kanter?

We could, depends on price. We aren't the only one who will notice Kanters impact toward the win loss record. I am sure his agent will as well.

TripleThreat wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Whatever anyone wanst to say negative about Okafor--they said worse about Enes Kanter. Okafor has more talent than Kanter--who cost us 17-18mm per.

I do not like what I have seen from Willy although its certainly not all of his fault. Okafor is a good piece for a future 2.

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topi...

"There are only a few players in the NBA who are worse defenders than Enes Kanter in the pivot. Maybe so few you could count them on one hand. You managed to find one of maybe a handful of pivots actually WORSE than Kanter on defense.

Okafor

- Is a gigantic @sshole. His team mates hate him. His coaches hate him. His front office hates him. Many of his local fans hate him. He's a massive character risk

- He's lazy and just doesn't give a sh*t. The dude just does not care. We are talking Eddy Curry/Andrew Bynum/Erick Dampier/Andres Biedriens/Greg Ostertag/Bargs level "I just don't give a sh*t, but let me keep cashing checks"

- Is a zero on defense. I mean zero. Zero defensive IQ. Zero in close contact. Zero for rebounding. Zero on the pick and roll. Zero for team defense. Zero as a help defender. Zero at defending the rim. Zero. Zero. Zero.

- Can't space the floor offensively. Has an elite back to the basket tool set, but is a player who hurts your team just by being on the floor.

- Crappy passer. ( A byproduct of don't care/don't try/screw you/f**k you, give me another check, because he was actually competent at it in college)

- ....to bring in a guy who is a lockerroom and media distraction, a sulker and lazy with a bad attitude who will cry to the press openly. Who will also chew up minutes from both Zinger and Kanter. Because, yes, the Knick need yet ANOTHER pivot who can't defend the rim, can't play defense and clogs the floor spacing.

....to take in an @sshole that the team would have to likely overpay at some point, to be a long term @sshole on the roster.

Why is Okafor NOT getting minutes in Philly. And don't say a logjam of talent there. He's not getting minutes because he's a very limited player who doesn't give a sh*t and who is locker room poison and a gigantic steaming @sshole to boot.

.... wants him if he's close to free for cost. As a flier. No one is giving up real assets for him because Philly has tried to trade him a long time, and NO ONE ELSE WANTS HIM.

Okafor has an interesting low post tool set. Not production, but a raw TOOL SET. His footwork is pretty good when his back is to the basket. All his other fundamentals though are completely shot. Which is why NO ONE ELSE WANTS HIM EXCEPT FOR NEARLY FREE AND NO ONE ELSE WANTS TO TRADE FOR HIM, EXCEPT FOR NEARLY FREE.

How can someone watch as much basketball as you do, and have no actual conception of fundamental concepts like rim protection, floor spacing, sunk costs, opportunity costs, cost control, positional value, and on and on and on."

Nah, we just got done with one long-term @sshole. No interest in another one.

Jmpasq wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think no one wants to trade for him because he's Gonna get waived anyway... Okafor is in the exact same boat Willy is in. Super talent but something missing in the charecters department. I think Okafor is legit embarrassed and has a chip on his shoulder. He got into better physical shape dio he cares. Willy just doesn't seem to care on his end.

Id be willing to give them a future 2 in 2021 or something. Its a steal--the guy was a #3 pick 2 years ago and avg 17-7 when healthy. He looked good beginning of year. If he practices and trains hard--he can be better than Kanter with ease--he gives us that 6-11 265 pounder who can protect KP. This is a no brainer to me--what is the odds of a 2nd rounder being better than OK4---none. You either believe a guy will work hard or not--I do not see this as anything but pure upside of a deal. Yes he is unrestricted BUT you get him in here--hes on the team. Kanter asks for 85mm Im not paying that--ill pay Ok4 a 1/3 of that.

Also I know some people will say why do you care about the frontcourt anyway? Potentially Kanter and Oquinn are gonzo--I like Ok4 as Kanters back up-- and Willy can stay 3.

Oquinn Beasley Lee Sessions all for sale.

of course if we can buy low i would take a shot

There's a reason speculative traders almost never have long term success