Knicks · weve been playing very decent defensive basketball (page 1)
I dont think this team in terms of personnel is that far away from what the Dallas Mavericks were back when they were good.
The thing is we dont have the goods to beat the Celtics Cavs Warriors Spurs or Rockets.
Can we get a long term good player using Willy to help the team this year?
Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.
Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.
If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.
Brought a lot of joy to my heart.
Frank also set KOQ with so many pocket passes that KOQ should have just took to jumper. If Frank was playing with Suns Amar'e he would have had like 16 ast lol. Amar'e would have took 1-2 dribbles and just dunked on everyone.
bernard wrote:I'm skeptical that any team on which M. Beasley gets significant minutes can be a top 10 defensive team. I really hope his time in the rotation ends once we get healthy. Other than that -- I agree. Really like the way everyone else on the team works on the defensive end. You can see it some of the scramble possessions, where someone gets beat of the dribble (still happens too much) and the rest of the possession guys are just busting it to challenge shots and force one more pass.
Always thought that Beas is a fill in type player, not a long term guy for the Knicks. Same with Kanter but like him a lot more
nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.
THIS! The culture has positively impacted guys who came in with HORRIBLE reputations on D!!! There’s no doubt about the way McD, Kanter and even Beasley have at least made the effort to play more D even if it’s with limitations.
I believed there would be improvement based on how the D would improve a bit when the kids played last year without DRose, BJ and Melo. This year the team has made marked improvement.
bernard wrote:I'm skeptical that any team on which M. Beasley gets significant minutes can be a top 10 defensive team. I really hope his time in the rotation ends once we get healthy. Other than that -- I agree. Really like the way everyone else on the team works on the defensive end. You can see it some of the scramble possessions, where someone gets beat of the dribble (still happens too much) and the rest of the possession guys are just busting it to challenge shots and force one more pass.If he was a core guy I would agree. He's bounced in and out of the rotation for the reasons you mention. He can however get you buckets. When he's got a bunch of good defensive guys around him he's a guy that can get you buckets every time down the floor.
Im not a fan either overall, but he's a great stop gap guy. KP gets nicked up a lot. I suspect KP will be a 70 game a year guy so the back up PF is going to be a key spot. Beas is nice as you know what your going to get. Jeff seems to have picked good spots for him and his teammates clearly get behind him.
That being said what nyknickzingis is spot on. Two key guys who didnt defend at all have been replaced by players who bust it. Kanter's defense has been servicable and has a lot of room for improvement. That being said his effort alone is light years better than what Rose/Melo gave.
To me it starts on the perimeter. Keep guys in front of you. Melo/Rose/Jennings have been replaced by guys like Frank/McD/Baker/Jack. Guys who are committed. They are rallying behind each other, not one guy. What is nice we are winning some games with KP getting nicked up and THjr out who was playing his best ball, possibly ever.
fishmike wrote:bernard wrote:I'm skeptical that any team on which M. Beasley gets significant minutes can be a top 10 defensive team. I really hope his time in the rotation ends once we get healthy. Other than that -- I agree. Really like the way everyone else on the team works on the defensive end. You can see it some of the scramble possessions, where someone gets beat of the dribble (still happens too much) and the rest of the possession guys are just busting it to challenge shots and force one more pass.If he was a core guy I would agree. He's bounced in and out of the rotation for the reasons you mention. He can however get you buckets. When he's got a bunch of good defensive guys around him he's a guy that can get you buckets every time down the floor.Im not a fan either overall, but he's a great stop gap guy. KP gets nicked up a lot. I suspect KP will be a 70 game a year guy so the back up PF is going to be a key spot. Beas is nice as you know what your going to get. Jeff seems to have picked good spots for him and his teammates clearly get behind him.
That being said what nyknickzingis is spot on. Two key guys who didnt defend at all have been replaced by players who bust it. Kanter's defense has been servicable and has a lot of room for improvement. That being said his effort alone is light years better than what Rose/Melo gave.
To me it starts on the perimeter. Keep guys in front of you. Melo/Rose/Jennings have been replaced by guys like Frank/McD/Baker/Jack. Guys who are committed. They are rallying behind each other, not one guy. What is nice we are winning some games with KP getting nicked up and THjr out who was playing his best ball, possibly ever.
AMEN BROTHER. AMEN 🙏🏾
Not sure what his value is on he open market.
JR smith always shines in his contract years then falls back some. Beas has great offensive talent.
Frank is doing a great job.
He gets some Westbrook tomorrow. Nobody stops Westbrook but he can disrupt him to make more mistakes.
Also.......I like the job Hornacek is doing this year with this team. Growing the yoots, starts with defense. Same guy that gave Willy the chance last year changed the culture in the off season. Phil did a good hire with him. Then knicks did a good job moving Phil out.
nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.
Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.
They have played 1 team over .500 over that span. The Pacers scored 115 and waxed them by 18 points
Jmpasq wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.
Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.
They have played 1 team over .500 over that span. The Pacers scored 115 and waxed them by 18 points
How many times you have to here a player say "it was m massive amount of confusion from top to bottom" before you start singling out any one player. This team plays better defense because the philosophy has changed, You heard KP say they were still confused on defense during the preseason, and that they needed to simplify things. That exactly what the did.
The overall effort is definitely better, but you can see that the schemes and rotations they run masks the flaws of some of their weaker defenders.
knicks1248 wrote:the Knicks defense was ranked 29th, 24th, and 24th for Phil's three years and each year he thought he had assembled a playoff team. We're such a different team since Phil left. Thank goodness no one was traded or resigned based on exit meeting performance.Jmpasq wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.
Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.
They have played 1 team over .500 over that span. The Pacers scored 115 and waxed them by 18 pointsHow many times you have to here a player say "it was m massive amount of confusion from top to bottom" before you start singling out any one player. This team plays better defense because the philosophy has changed, You heard KP say they were still confused on defense during the preseason, and that they needed to simplify things. That exactly what the did.
The overall effort is definitely better, but you can see that the schemes and rotations they run masks the flaws of some of their weaker defenders.
CrushAlot wrote:knicks1248 wrote:the Knicks defense was ranked 29th, 24th, and 24th for Phil's three years and each year he thought he had assembled a playoff team. We're such a different team since Phil left. Thank goodness no one was traded or resigned based on exit meeting performance.Jmpasq wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.
Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.
They have played 1 team over .500 over that span. The Pacers scored 115 and waxed them by 18 pointsHow many times you have to here a player say "it was m massive amount of confusion from top to bottom" before you start singling out any one player. This team plays better defense because the philosophy has changed, You heard KP say they were still confused on defense during the preseason, and that they needed to simplify things. That exactly what the did.
The overall effort is definitely better, but you can see that the schemes and rotations they run masks the flaws of some of their weaker defenders.
It's amazing how some are still pinning our misfortunes on melo and rose, knowing we were winning without phil
You two should find a room
Beasley has elite body control on offense and has the complete scorer's package - can beat his man off the dribble, can score inside and out, plus he also seems to have really good court vision for a big. It's like he has a lot of Blake Griffin DNA, maybe a he's a little small, a little less of a leaper.
He may not have the anticipation or focus to be a good defender, but still. It's tough for me to understand why he didn't become a regular 20ppg+ scoring in the NBA.
Of course, talking like this makes me think he's the second coming of Lee Nailon...
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/07/sports...
But back on topic, I think we're starting to believe that this team can sustain their defensive presence and hold on to a .500+ record. They feel different from last year because they're winning with different formulas offensively. We're not solely relying on one guy; we're getting good contributions from a number of players, and we're getting better, not worse.
What we lost THJr on offense, we sort of gained something back on a (healthy) Lance Thomas and gritty play (on both offense and D) from Ntilikina and Baker. At the moment you're seeing great development from the young guys. Early in the season (albeit somewhat injured) critics were talking about their lack of production (me included).
Ntilikina, after his 6 steal night, seemed to get figured out by opponents... but over the 4-5 games, he's made adjustments of his own and has been looking for his shot more. Great confidence builder for him to know that he can overcome adversity.
knicks1248 wrote:and who are the weaker defenders? Kanter, McD, Jack and Beasley. Beas has been in and out of the rotation so focus on the first 3. KAnter, McD and Jack give 100x the effort on defense that Melo and Rose did.Jmpasq wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.
Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.
I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.
They have played 1 team over .500 over that span. The Pacers scored 115 and waxed them by 18 pointsHow many times you have to here a player say "it was m massive amount of confusion from top to bottom" before you start singling out any one player. This team plays better defense because the philosophy has changed, You heard KP say they were still confused on defense during the preseason, and that they needed to simplify things. That exactly what the did.
The overall effort is definitely better, but you can see that the schemes and rotations they run masks the flaws of some of their weaker defenders.
You are right. The culture is better and the coach is better without Phil. That has helped. You know whats helped more? Having guys you can bench for poor effort and execution and literally every player except KP has been yanked for poor defense at some point this year.
Reality? If you want to make this about Phil or Melo go for it. Phil wins every time. Phil was great for this franchise. The only blunder that still hurts is Noah, and thats not hurting too bad (so far). Phil got Dolan's hands off the franchise. Phil drafted KP, Willy, Dotson and Frank. Phil signed Lee, KOQ and Lance. Phil hired Jeff. Phil was chopped at the perfect time, right before he could phuck up a Melo trade. However the things Phil got right are lasting and a huge part of this turn around. He also made the Melo relationship so toxic there was no chance of a reconciliation which also helped us. So even when Phil was sucking he ended up helping.
If anyone has come out shiny here its Mills. Mills kept the good that Phil did. We even let Phil hang around for the draft (looking smart) before getting him out as we all knew he was going to ruin any Melo trade.
End of the day very few people will view Phil as a great exec, but he got Dolan's hands off the Knicks and left us with Lance, Lee, KOQ, KP, Frank, Dotson, Willy, Baker and Jeff.
Phil was the disposable enema this franchise needed. It was neither comfortable or pretty but the purpose and needs were served. Melo? He ended up being one of the turds. We can all rejoice about that time we almost beat the Pacers in the playoffs, or we can go visit his wax statue.
knicks1248 you ensured everyone repeatedly no success would ever be achieved under Mills. You asked how long before Hornecek was fired. You reminded us repeatedly how bad Mills was preaching defense and bringing in guys who never defend in Kanter, McD and Tim Hardaway. But yea man... I know I surely value your every word. Considering the crap you spewed over and over its funny to hear you talk like you knew all along. Pa-lease.
Phil wanted UNSELFISH, DEFENSIVE and SMART players. He drafted that way. He hired Jeff to modernize the offense and he has. The Knicks didn’t hire some NEW defensive coach. It’s the same crew. Jeff tried to take the media pressure off Rambis by saying he wasn’t going to be the lone voice on D but Rambis is still the lead guy regarding Defense!
Mills learned from Phil what to do and what NOT to do. He made a smart hire with Scott Perry. They made solid moves and gave Jeff a good roster to work with. It’s been about nothing but basketball.