Knicks · Re-build, sell the vets or go for the playoffs and now? (page 3)

GustavBahler wrote:

VCoug wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

VCoug wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Some of you get far too enthusiastic for losing. Doesn't take much for you to go there. Not even the All-Star break. Burke hasnt played, trade deadlines havent passed. Like hitting the reset button on your XBox.

The chances that Burke makes a significant difference to this team are somewhere between slim and none and we don't have the assets to make a trade if someone significant becomes available. I'm happy to lost short term if it means a better chance of winning long term. Depending on who you talk to, this year's draft has somewhere between 3 (Doncic, Ayton, Bagley) and 6 (Young, Porter, Bamba) potential franchise players. If losing a few more games this season means we draft a franchise player then, yes, we should be rooting for losses just like the years we wanted to draft Westbrook and then Curry and just missed out on them.

My point is that some have become so jaded, that they cant wait to see how it plays out. Perry made a very good deal for Melo considering the severe limits that were placed on his ability to make the best deal for the team. Not waiting to see how he responds, ready to flush the season already. Too soon.

At some point it may be more advantageous to look ahead to the lottery, but this early in the season feels cynical. There isnt the drama from last season, the team gets along, the coach hasnt lost the team as of now. Lets see if they can turn things around. That is something a young team can build on.

Yes, he made a very good deal in that he didn't take back any disastrous contracts like Ryan Anderson but we didn't get back any real assets. Kanter is a nice, overpaid player who's adding a couple of wins but doesn't make any major difference; McDermott is whatever; and we got a 2nd round pick. Like I said above, we have no assets to add a significant, win-now piece; there's nothing for Perry to respond with.

We're not that young of a team (we're tied for 12th oldest with Washington); we're not really winning with our youth except for KP and a little bit of Ntilikina; of our top 10 players in MPG only KP, THJr, Ntilikina, CLee, and Lance Thomas have contracts past next season; even if we turn it around we were only a .500ish team before this swoon; and even if we wanted to build on this we'd have no real way to add anyone because we'd be capped out.

You left out the most important part, Perry made that deal while under Melo's NTC. Perry made a very good deal considering he had very little wiggle room. That should at least make you want to give him the benefit of the doubt IMO. See if he can make some moves to better balance out the roster this season.

The issue isn't roster balance, it's roster talent. Every player on this team would be a role player on a good team, including KP at this point in his career. There's no balance to turn this team from a .500-ish at best team into something resembling a title contender.

SocraticBallin22 wrote:Lee, Thomas and KO should all be on the market at the trading deadline and could all net assets back in a true rebuild (Lee: late 1st rounder; LT: 2nd rounder; KO: 2nd rounder).

I think we're stuck with Lance, which is OK. You need vets in the locker room. I'd like to get a first for Lee, but what teams out there have the need and resources? What OKC consider a deal and do they have a first? Cleveland could use Lance. Do they have a pick outside of the Brooklyn pick to trade?

BigDaddyG wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:Lee, Thomas and KO should all be on the market at the trading deadline and could all net assets back in a true rebuild (Lee: late 1st rounder; LT: 2nd rounder; KO: 2nd rounder).

I think we're stuck with Lance, which is OK. You need vets in the locker room. I'd like to get a first for Lee, but what teams out there have the need and resources? What OKC consider a deal and do they have a first? Cleveland could use Lance. Do they have a pick outside of the Brooklyn pick to trade?

martin wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Not about benching
More about trading vets or trading future assets like Frank, Willy, 2018 pick that are giving this team almost nothing this year.

If we are going for broke this year we should trade Frank and Willy for a star guard that can get this team into the playoffs. If we are rebuilding should trade Kanter or OQuinn, Beasley, Lee etc for future second and first round picks. Stockpile on future assets.

Going for broke on the last playoff spot is the type of move Isaiah would make. I want this team to contend for a title. If we don't have enough chips to push forward, then we gotta build up. That's my two cents.

I agree
But to get a contender we need top 5 talent in the draft
Unless we trade vets we won't get into that position

No you don't, you need to build smartly, whether through trade or FA or drafting. This is not a black and white operation.

You are not either going all in or trading everything. There are some grey areas where you are rebuilding without tanking.

I agree wholeheartedly here. Perry/Mills aren't in this to tank unless the season becomes a train wreck. I don't see that happening.

Fact of the matter is that the Knicks are winning big - not yet in the wins column but in terms of team talent and chemistry.

Frankie is not a bust and is likely, in retrospect a top 5 pick from last year's draft.

The Anthony trade is a windfall.

Jack came for free.

Burke came for free.

THJ is surprisingly NOT a dud.

Beasley is a gift.

This is not a set of assets you tank with.

Going into the trade period, what the Knicks will want to do is continue to leverage assets toward a.) making the playoffs, and b.) making the playoffs with their younger players being a position to benefit from that playoff experience because that's what you're looking for is the playoff experience and the getting a taste for repeating.

To that end, IMO, you transition to starting Frankie at PG after February. To that end you move Jack for a contender's pick - after all, you want Frankie, Baker, Burke getting the minutes in any playoff games.

Courtney Lee will never be worth more than he is now at mid-season. Getting younger assets for him now is the right thing to do. We are loaded with young swing players deserving minutes.

The Knicks also need to make a decision to unpack the Center glut. Willie has value - nothing wrong in cashing that in. Yes, Willie is younger than the rest but Willie might navigate the Knicks into a better draft position this coming draft.

I don't see a gloomy second half.

fwk00 wrote:In fact, something along the lines of Hernangomez and Jack to the Grizzles for Mario Chalmers and a Knicks option to swap first rounders in the 2018 draft works nicely.

Why would Memphis ever agree to that?

The Orlando Magic are in a stunning free fall having lost 27 of their last 31 games, which means a fire sale is potentially imminent.

Rival executives expect the Magic to "aggressively hunt" for trades involving point guard Elfrid Payton, shooting guard Evan Fournier, and small forward Mario Hezonja, according to Marc Stein of the New York Times.

Fournier, a 25-year-old, is averaging 17.6 points and 2.9 assists while shooting 39 percent from deep. He's on a reasonable contract that sees him making $17 million for the next three seasons

Lee baker and willy

fwk00 wrote:They may be in the market for a center before long.

Sure, but they're in a position that they'd be able to draft Ayton, Bamba, or Bagley with their 1st round pick. Why are they trading one of those guys for WHG?

knicks1248 wrote:

The Orlando Magic are in a stunning free fall having lost 27 of their last 31 games, which means a fire sale is potentially imminent.

Rival executives expect the Magic to "aggressively hunt" for trades involving point guard Elfrid Payton, shooting guard Evan Fournier, and small forward Mario Hezonja, according to Marc Stein of the New York Times.

Fournier, a 25-year-old, is averaging 17.6 points and 2.9 assists while shooting 39 percent from deep. He's on a reasonable contract that sees him making $17 million for the next three seasons

Lee baker and willy

CrushAlot wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:Lee, Thomas and KO should all be on the market at the trading deadline and could all net assets back in a true rebuild (Lee: late 1st rounder; LT: 2nd rounder; KO: 2nd rounder).

I think we're stuck with Lance, which is OK. You need vets in the locker room. I'd like to get a first for Lee, but what teams out there have the need and resources? What OKC consider a deal and do they have a first? Cleveland could use Lance. Do they have a pick outside of the Brooklyn pick to trade?

He is just what OKC needs. Not sure what their pick situation is. The Knicks would need to take a contract back. I know an okc blog was trying to come up with trade scenarios for KOQ. His salary makes him much easier to move.

Think Minny has their pick. OKC can sure use him as the shooting guard is not shooting.

HofstraBBall wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

SocraticBallin22 wrote:Lee, Thomas and KO should all be on the market at the trading deadline and could all net assets back in a true rebuild (Lee: late 1st rounder; LT: 2nd rounder; KO: 2nd rounder).

I think we're stuck with Lance, which is OK. You need vets in the locker room. I'd like to get a first for Lee, but what teams out there have the need and resources? What OKC consider a deal and do they have a first? Cleveland could use Lance. Do they have a pick outside of the Brooklyn pick to trade?

He is just what OKC needs. Not sure what their pick situation is. The Knicks would need to take a contract back. I know an okc blog was trying to come up with trade scenarios for KOQ. His salary makes him much easier to move.

Think Minny has their pick. OKC can sure use him as the shooting guard is not shooting.

To me the #1 deal is KOQ for Stanley Johnson. Detriot has no size after Drummond. They play 6'8-6'9 guys after him. KOQ would really help them and the $ works. I would give them the Bulls pick to make up the diff

This would shore up Clevelands defense and add two players who can score, but don’t demand the ball. I think it makes Cleveland a better balanced team.

Knicks would get some cap flexibility next year with Fryes expiring. Crowder is a nice fit starting at the 3, he’s 27 and under control for two more years on a good contract

VCoug wrote:

fwk00 wrote:They may be in the market for a center before long.

Sure, but they're in a position that they'd be able to draft Ayton, Bamba, or Bagley with their 1st round pick. Why are they trading one of those guys for WHG?

They don't lose an early pick, they simply lose a few positions for a sure thing rather than a not-so-sure-thing. Willie can play and he's a memphis kinda guy.

Chalmers comes in as a backup while Jack takes his place. It's not even clear Memphis would lose draft position but if they did it simply puts the Knicks in slightly better draft position something the tank is intended to do.

fwk00 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

fwk00 wrote:They may be in the market for a center before long.

Sure, but they're in a position that they'd be able to draft Ayton, Bamba, or Bagley with their 1st round pick. Why are they trading one of those guys for WHG?

They don't lose an early pick, they simply lose a few positions for a sure thing rather than a not-so-sure-thing. Willie can play and he's a memphis kinda guy.

Chalmers comes in as a backup while Jack takes his place. It's not even clear Memphis would lose draft position but if they did it simply puts the Knicks in slightly better draft position something the tank is intended to do.

"A Memphis kind of guy"? Why, because they only employ Spaniards at Center (Pau, Marc, Willy)?

Rookie wrote:If cleveland is willing to move on from Crowder, I would take him and Fryes expiring for KOQ and Lee.

This would shore up Clevelands defense and add two players who can score, but don’t demand the ball. I think it makes Cleveland a better balanced team.

Knicks would get some cap flexibility next year with Fryes expiring. Crowder is a nice fit starting at the 3, he’s 27 and under control for two more years on a good contract

Does that work Salary wise?
I'd think they would want Lance in return for what they lose in crowder.
JR has to wake the Phuch up. He is still better than Clee. ANd, Clee makes 11mil.

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

The Orlando Magic are in a stunning free fall having lost 27 of their last 31 games, which means a fire sale is potentially imminent.

Rival executives expect the Magic to "aggressively hunt" for trades involving point guard Elfrid Payton, shooting guard Evan Fournier, and small forward Mario Hezonja, according to Marc Stein of the New York Times.

Fournier, a 25-year-old, is averaging 17.6 points and 2.9 assists while shooting 39 percent from deep. He's on a reasonable contract that sees him making $17 million for the next three seasons

Lee baker and willy

I like Fournier, but he's redundant with THJ already here. It would be cool to have a team France backcourt tho. Is Hexonja playing decently? I'd like to take a gamble, but why trade when you could possibly buy in free agency?

Hezonja's shown flashes but has never been consistently good. He's someone I'd like to take a chance on this summer on a team-friendly deal. Something like 2 years @ $15M with a team option for a 3rd.

fwk00 wrote:

VCoug wrote:

fwk00 wrote:They may be in the market for a center before long.

Sure, but they're in a position that they'd be able to draft Ayton, Bamba, or Bagley with their 1st round pick. Why are they trading one of those guys for WHG?

They don't lose an early pick, they simply lose a few positions for a sure thing rather than a not-so-sure-thing. Willie can play and he's a memphis kinda guy.

Chalmers comes in as a backup while Jack takes his place. It's not even clear Memphis would lose draft position but if they did it simply puts the Knicks in slightly better draft position something the tank is intended to do.

It's not a few spots, they'd be dropping from 4th to 12th if the season started today. That's not worth it for a guy who can't get off our bench.

VCoug wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

The Orlando Magic are in a stunning free fall having lost 27 of their last 31 games, which means a fire sale is potentially imminent.

Rival executives expect the Magic to "aggressively hunt" for trades involving point guard Elfrid Payton, shooting guard Evan Fournier, and small forward Mario Hezonja, according to Marc Stein of the New York Times.

Fournier, a 25-year-old, is averaging 17.6 points and 2.9 assists while shooting 39 percent from deep. He's on a reasonable contract that sees him making $17 million for the next three seasons

Lee baker and willy

I like Fournier, but he's redundant with THJ already here. It would be cool to have a team France backcourt tho. Is Hexonja playing decently? I'd like to take a gamble, but why trade when you could possibly buy in free agency?

Hezonja's shown flashes but has never been consistently good. He's someone I'd like to take a chance on this summer on a team-friendly deal. Something like 2 years @ $15M with a team option for a 3rd.

..... that's a Baker type deal but times 2

martin wrote:

VCoug wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

The Orlando Magic are in a stunning free fall having lost 27 of their last 31 games, which means a fire sale is potentially imminent.

Rival executives expect the Magic to "aggressively hunt" for trades involving point guard Elfrid Payton, shooting guard Evan Fournier, and small forward Mario Hezonja, according to Marc Stein of the New York Times.

Fournier, a 25-year-old, is averaging 17.6 points and 2.9 assists while shooting 39 percent from deep. He's on a reasonable contract that sees him making $17 million for the next three seasons

Lee baker and willy

I like Fournier, but he's redundant with THJ already here. It would be cool to have a team France backcourt tho. Is Hexonja playing decently? I'd like to take a gamble, but why trade when you could possibly buy in free agency?

Hezonja's shown flashes but has never been consistently good. He's someone I'd like to take a chance on this summer on a team-friendly deal. Something like 2 years @ $15M with a team option for a 3rd.

..... that's a Baker type deal but times 2

Baker has been worse than Hezonja and we gave him a player option not a team option.