Knicks · what a good signing THjr was (page 1)

This board killed that signing and there were plenty of reasons to. Mills and whoever else were behind this really got the Knicks a good player. He's an above average defender. Not great there but no liability either. Attacking Hardaway on defense is a non starter. His effort there is also excellent.

He's a fantastic ball mover. He's easily our best open court player and compares with other NBA top players. When he's pushing the ball it seems to always end in a good play attacking the basket or a good pass to an open shooter.

He fills out the stat sheet. 4 rebs, 3 assists, 1 steal and only 1.5 TOs a game is very good.

He really wants to win and make his mark. He's shown good leadership and is coachable.

Here is some perspective... if we never traded him, developed him through his rookie deal and signed him to the same contract we would be talking about what a great job we did developing this guy and how we have a stable rotation guy who plays winnings basketball and how good it is to finally draft and develop young talent.

I bring this up now as we approach the deadline. The point? Nobody saw really saw what the Knicks FO saw, but Mills and co were right. We would probably be closer to .500 and in the playoff thick if he didnt miss that month. He's clearly our 2nd best player and thats not a bad thing. We need more guys like this.

Angry Grandpa

He has been great. Really looking forward to him continuing to round out his game. He is a great core piece for us moving forward and a big get from the new front office.

We have a 37-win pace with him in the lineup and a 35-win pace with him out of the lineup.

I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

VCoug wrote:We have a 37-win pace with him in the lineup and a 35-win pace with him out of the lineup.

Yeah, he's a good player on a sizable contract. It's not a bargain contract. It's an even value (more like C+ contract). If you're talking about having him vs. having no one (the $17 mil a year is unavailable to spend on anyone else), then it's more than a 2 win difference. I don't think he makes much more of a positive contribution than the what you'd already expect from $17 mil a year that is adequately spent though. Or in other words, he has the 64th highest salary this year and probably is about the 64th best player in the league (or maybe just a little lower).

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

he's so athletic. moreso than i remember. love how he gets up and down the court. great finisher in transition.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

We already went over this is in the past. Unless you expect Hardaway jr to fall off a cliff when he turns 30 yrs old and has a 2-3 window of production. It's pretty reasonable to believe Knicks would be getting production from Hardaway, KP, Frank our 2018 lotto pick and what ever players they acquire along this age group at the same time a few seasons down the road.

The signing of Hardaway jr has helped us win games now and is apart of the future so I don't get the notion. The available FA guards that we could have realistically signed have mostly been trash. Jack has provided the same production as Rondo and Hill with a minimum contract. Jack and Hardaway have provided plenty of contributions to winning this season.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

talk about a magical pull out of your ass totally pretend number.

NO TEAM that is still building has 7 core guys. Try 3-4... unless you want to tell me the team your talking about?

I see this (as of today):

CORE:
Frank 19
KP 22
THjr 25

Prospects:
Willy 23
Dotson 23

Vets who wont be here past their current deals:
Lance
Lee
Noah

Coming or going?
McD
Kanter
KOQ
Baker
Burke

Might be around a bit longer as they are useful:
Jack
Beas

You cant use the deadline as a measuring stick for the franchise's future. Its certainly possible the Knicks do nothing if there are no deals that help. No deals better than bad deals. While there may be offers, and Im sure there will be its not a given they are GOOD offers for us

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

We already went over this is in the past. Unless you expect Hardaway jr to fall off a cliff when he turns 30 yrs old and has a 2-3 window of production. It's pretty reasonable to believe Knicks would be getting production from Hardaway, KP, Frank our 2018 lotto pick and what ever players they acquire along this age group at the same time a few seasons down the road.

The signing of Hardaway jr has helped us win games now and is apart of the future so I don't get the notion. The available FA guards that we could have realistically signed have mostly been trash. Jack has provided the same production as Rondo and Hill with a minimum contract. Jack and Hardaway have provided plenty of contributions to winning this season.

when your above 500, that is winning, every single player in the league helps contributes to a few wins for their team. THJ wants the playoffs now, for him and a few others, it's a priority.

Frank, willy and whatever draft pick we get, your talking 3, 4 yr, learning curb, and you got thj and KP talking playoffs now..Thats not the same timeline

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

talk about a magical pull out of your ass totally pretend number.

NO TEAM that is still building has 7 core guys. Try 3-4... unless you want to tell me the team your talking about?

I see this (as of today):

CORE:
Frank 19
KP 22
THjr 25

Prospects:
Willy 23
Dotson 23

Vets who wont be here past their current deals:
Lance
Lee
Noah

Coming or going?
McD
Kanter
KOQ
Baker
Burke

Might be around a bit longer as they are useful:
Jack
Beas

You cant use the deadline as a measuring stick for the franchise's future. Its certainly possible the Knicks do nothing if there are no deals that help. No deals better than bad deals. While there may be offers, and Im sure there will be its not a given they are GOOD offers for us

I don't take exception to anything that you wrote except that I don't think Frank has done anything to be considered part of the core. I'd throw him on the prospects list.

I'd also probably create a new group that would be called "yours for a pick or two" and put:
Lance
Lee
McBuckets
Kanter (unfortunately)
KOQ

on that list

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:We have a 37-win pace with him in the lineup and a 35-win pace with him out of the lineup.

Yeah, he's a good player on a sizable contract. It's not a bargain contract. It's an even value (more like C+ contract). If you're talking about having him vs. having no one (the $17 mil a year is unavailable to spend on anyone else), then it's more than a 2 win difference. I don't think he makes much more of a positive contribution than the what you'd already expect from $17 mil a year that is adequately spent though. Or in other words, he has the 64th highest salary this year and probably is about the 64th best player in the league (or maybe just a little lower).

I agree with this

That said, I HATED this signing and never thought that THJ would ever live up to his contract. That he is says something to me. It also suggests that as he develops, there is a chance that he might outperform his contract. Who that is sane on this board would have thought that might be possible?

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

talk about a magical pull out of your ass totally pretend number.

NO TEAM that is still building has 7 core guys. Try 3-4... unless you want to tell me the team your talking about?

I see this (as of today):

CORE:
Frank 19
KP 22
THjr 25

Prospects:
Willy 23
Dotson 23

Vets who wont be here past their current deals:
Lance
Lee
Noah

Coming or going?
McD
Kanter
KOQ
Baker
Burke

Might be around a bit longer as they are useful:
Jack
Beas

You cant use the deadline as a measuring stick for the franchise's future. Its certainly possible the Knicks do nothing if there are no deals that help. No deals better than bad deals. While there may be offers, and Im sure there will be its not a given they are GOOD offers for us

I don't take exception to anything that you wrote except that I don't think Frank has done anything to be considered part of the core. I'd throw him on the prospects list.

I'd also probably create a new group that would be called "yours for a pick or two" and put:
Lance
Lee
McBuckets
Kanter (unfortunately)
KOQ

on that list

I count Frank because he's a lottery pick and first rounder so there is commitment from the Knicks to develop him. I dont disagree with your point, in that Frank has to earn it and he remains unproven. However based on their plans for him and their projected planned role in the future I would def keep him in as a core guy until he plays his way out of it.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

talk about a magical pull out of your ass totally pretend number.

NO TEAM that is still building has 7 core guys. Try 3-4... unless you want to tell me the team your talking about?

I see this (as of today):

CORE:
Frank 19
KP 22
THjr 25

Prospects:
Willy 23
Dotson 23

Vets who wont be here past their current deals:
Lance
Lee
Noah

Coming or going?
McD
Kanter
KOQ
Baker
Burke

Might be around a bit longer as they are useful:
Jack
Beas

You cant use the deadline as a measuring stick for the franchise's future. Its certainly possible the Knicks do nothing if there are no deals that help. No deals better than bad deals. While there may be offers, and Im sure there will be its not a given they are GOOD offers for us

so basically we have no core, and KP's (not so distant future) will be base on the progression, culture and stability of the team and franchise.

The melo trade is turning in to a lateral move(aka, keith van horn for tim thomas), considering our win loss record, we're like a game or 2 better i believe.

This trade deal line is a chance for us to add a piece, balance this lopisodid roster, give your coach a legit chance to make the playoffs,boost moral, and send a message to the loyal fans after that down right depressing 2016/17 season.

Or they can sit on their hands, do nothing, hope you get a gem in the draft, and risk losing your "ready now players, or any chance of a B+ or better FA

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:We have a 37-win pace with him in the lineup and a 35-win pace with him out of the lineup.

Yeah, he's a good player on a sizable contract. It's not a bargain contract. It's an even value (more like C+ contract). If you're talking about having him vs. having no one (the $17 mil a year is unavailable to spend on anyone else), then it's more than a 2 win difference. I don't think he makes much more of a positive contribution than the what you'd already expect from $17 mil a year that is adequately spent though. Or in other words, he has the 64th highest salary this year and probably is about the 64th best player in the league (or maybe just a little lower).

I agree with this

That said, I HATED this signing and never thought that THJ would ever live up to his contract. That he is says something to me. It also suggests that as he develops, there is a chance that he might outperform his contract. Who that is sane on this board would have thought that might be possible?

your never getting "value" from the restricted FA market. Ever. The value is in the player, his upside, his role, your needs, etc... really everything BUT contract value. Other team can match, so thats out right away.

So you have to factor that context in when considering if this is a good signing. And Bonn him vs. nobody is def more than a 2 win difference. Its just not debatable.

The fact that in year 1 he's living up to his deal is fantastic. The possibility he may outperform it (and I think that possibility is real) is even better. Thus the "good job."

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

We already went over this is in the past. Unless you expect Hardaway jr to fall off a cliff when he turns 30 yrs old and has a 2-3 window of production. It's pretty reasonable to believe Knicks would be getting production from Hardaway, KP, Frank our 2018 lotto pick and what ever players they acquire along this age group at the same time a few seasons down the road.

The signing of Hardaway jr has helped us win games now and is apart of the future so I don't get the notion. The available FA guards that we could have realistically signed have mostly been trash. Jack has provided the same production as Rondo and Hill with a minimum contract. Jack and Hardaway have provided plenty of contributions to winning this season.

when your above 500, that is winning, every single player in the league helps contributes to a few wins for their team. THJ wants the playoffs now, for him and a few others, it's a priority.

Frank, willy and whatever draft pick we get, your talking 3, 4 yr, learning curb, and you got thj and KP talking playoffs now..Thats not the same timeline

They are talking playoffs since they are in the hunt and have been for most of the season. Which is surprising since they didn't sign Rondo. Don't know how its possible they have won any games. I'm sure Frank wants to make playoffs as well even though he is 19.

Frank and the 2018 draft pick don't have to be the only players acquired that fit this age group. They can eat a contract to add another player or 2. They can draft with their 2018 lotto pick and then package a Lee with a future draft pick for a proven player that fits this age group.

The main target is KPs prime which will start 3 yrs from now. Building a deep team for that specific time frame. We don't want a team where we have to continuously make win moves in order to stay afloat and keep up. We want a team that's locked in and has potential growth.

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

VCoug wrote:We have a 37-win pace with him in the lineup and a 35-win pace with him out of the lineup.

Yeah, he's a good player on a sizable contract. It's not a bargain contract. It's an even value (more like C+ contract). If you're talking about having him vs. having no one (the $17 mil a year is unavailable to spend on anyone else), then it's more than a 2 win difference. I don't think he makes much more of a positive contribution than the what you'd already expect from $17 mil a year that is adequately spent though. Or in other words, he has the 64th highest salary this year and probably is about the 64th best player in the league (or maybe just a little lower).

I agree with this

That said, I HATED this signing and never thought that THJ would ever live up to his contract. That he is says something to me. It also suggests that as he develops, there is a chance that he might outperform his contract. Who that is sane on this board would have thought that might be possible?

LOL... now now now... lets be nice to nix

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I never doubted THJ potential, I just didn't think it would move the needle unless melo stayed or we upgraded the pg position significantly.

Valid concerns but signing Hardaway wasnt specifically about this season. Was about the overall picture of collecting players around the same age group to compete together for many yrs to come. As it was explained by the FO.

That's exactly right. The assumption is he will continue to improve and chemistry will develop from this group.

Our pg's are not on the same time line as our prime players, most of the vets won't be around long. Building chemistry means you have at least 7 rotational players on deck for the next 3 yrs, we barely have 2.

The only way we will build chemistry is when we are 110% committed to winning, and i mean across the boards.

This trade deadline will show me all i need to know about the direction of this team, how competent the FO is

talk about a magical pull out of your ass totally pretend number.

NO TEAM that is still building has 7 core guys. Try 3-4... unless you want to tell me the team your talking about?

I see this (as of today):

CORE:
Frank 19
KP 22
THjr 25

Prospects:
Willy 23
Dotson 23

Vets who wont be here past their current deals:
Lance
Lee
Noah

Coming or going?
McD
Kanter
KOQ
Baker
Burke

Might be around a bit longer as they are useful:
Jack
Beas

You cant use the deadline as a measuring stick for the franchise's future. Its certainly possible the Knicks do nothing if there are no deals that help. No deals better than bad deals. While there may be offers, and Im sure there will be its not a given they are GOOD offers for us

so basically we have no core, and KP's (not so distant future) will be base on the progression, culture and stability of the team and franchise.

The melo trade is turning in to a lateral move(aka, keith van horn for tim thomas), considering our win loss record, we're like a game or 2 better i believe.

This trade deal line is a chance for us to add a piece, balance this lopisodid roster, give your coach a legit chance to make the playoffs,boost moral, and send a message to the loyal fans after that down right depressing 2016/17 season.

Or they can sit on their hands, do nothing, hope you get a gem in the draft, and risk losing your "ready now players, or any chance of a B+ or better FA

list me the teams with their 7 core guys ready to start their chemistry together. Please list them. You are talking out your ass as usual