Knicks · Is there anyone still defending Dolan hiring Phil, Phil or the Triangle as a good way to build our future? (page 1)

Too soon? We spent a long time arguing about how the Triangle and Phil were a terrible choice to begin a successful rebuild. Now the king of stupidity is admiting that it was a problem and claimed Phil was out of touch and did not relate to tadays players? Claimed that JH's problem was that he was like Phil, in that he was stuck in the past? (My Gripe from day one of the Phil/Triangle era) Yet he does not take any of the blame for being the guy that put antiquated Phil/Triangle in charge. This guy cannot lead or take responsibility. No respect for him. He should sell the team and move on to some crappy jazz club and call it a day. Yeah right. That will happen.

Where are the guys that argued the Triangle/Phil was the right plan to build a long term future? As their excuse was always "Wait and see". Well its now completely over and we have not heard from the Phil/Triangle supporters. Some of us saw how short sighted it was to trust a Prez/System that was "Stuck in the past" and out of touch with Todays NBA. Although Dolan did not take the blame he did finnaly admit it was the reason it did not work . Anyone else have the Bballs?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...

Phil was part of the problem not adapting his system to the modern NBA, but he wasn't the only problem. The triangle could easily be adapted to shoot more 3's in the flow of the offense-which is where the NBA is now. Any team that runs an offense that is not predicated ISO ball is running the principles of the triangle, in regard to passing, team ball, and shooting the open shot. Kerr adapted it in Golden State. Popovich runs the same principles in San Antonio, but he famously adapted his system to the modern way the NBA is being played now.

Melo was a problem. Adapting was the problem. Bad coaching hires and bad free agent signings were issues. And Im sorry but i think Dolan-during the Jackson years-was a minimal issue.

Phil ain't blameless, but he wasnt the only problem.

joec32033 wrote:Phil was part of the problem not adapting his system to the modern NBA, but he wasn't the only problem. The triangle could easily be adapted to shoot more 3's in the flow of the offense-which is where the NBA is now. Any team that runs an offense that is not predicated ISO ball is running the principles of the triangle, in regard to passing, team ball, and shooting the open shot. Kerr adapted it in Golden State. Popovich runs the same principles in San Antonio, but he famously adapted his system to the modern way the NBA is being played now.

Melo was a problem. Adapting was the problem. Bad coaching hires and bad free agent signings were issues. And Im sorry but i think Dolan-during the Jackson years-was a minimal issue.

Phil ain't blameless, but he wasnt the only problem.

Agreed. There were multiple problems.

Melo was a good idea, badly executed.
Phil was a good idea, badly executed.
Isiah, Marbury, MDA, on and on..........
Change is not improvement. Good ideas have to complement.
Dolan has not budded out. He said he would. ANother good idea badly executed.
Easy to not have faith on anything this teams does. But I can have hope!!!!

I am.

What annoys me is the "the only thing Phil did right was draft KP" that is declared incessantly in media and by fans. I was happy when Phil came on board but it didn't work out -- I'd put his stubborness and ego at the top of reasons why. But he did draft KP (and was dragged across the coals for it if you remember. He was killed for not signing Greg Monroe and Lamarcus Aldridge (who was never going to come here) but signed some decent FA's in Robin Lopez, KOQ, Courtney Lee. Obviously the Noah signing was bad -- I think that happens. He probably should have ditched Melo but what kind of s#!tstorm would have followed that? Frank remains to be seen but looks to be a good piece going forward. And to me the main thing he did right might be he never traded a #1 pick. Tell me that isn't a big deal. Think Bargiani trade.

Am I saying Phil was great? Hell no. But the level of hate for him is irrational. Relative to recent prior GMs, he was pretty okay.

Yes

PHil was a bridge hire that we did not need to make but perhaps Dolan needed to hand te reigns off.
“Good here, bad execution” we averted some bad stuff as Phil was not a good exec. Not because he was old, Rich, or stubborn, because he thought like a coach and not an architect. He hired a coach that would comply and be mentored. Bad move. Either get on the sideline and do it, or move on. KP was wrong to skip meeting but trading him in response was what a coach would do if a player tuned him out.
It was correct to fire him.
Can’t change things but perhaps put them in perspective. PHil did not do any long term harm other than try to win and rebuild. With Melo, Rose and Noah it was expensive.

The Path that this Franchise is on currently had to start somewhere. Phil tried to get it done his way but is ego got in the way. His good moves actually set this team up well and his mistakes actually helped to show what not to do. The bad moves don't look to be fatal.

Phil made a more serious commitment to the D/G League team. Now after all that work it has actually developed into a very high quality Farm system.

Scouting and Drafting also took on a much more Serious and Comprehensive part of the Front Office attention. This is not a perfect science as we have all seen. Mills added Perry who added to what was already here.

KnickDanger wrote:What annoys me is the "the only thing Phil did right was draft KP" that is declared incessantly in media and by fans. I was happy when Phil came on board but it didn't work out -- I'd put his stubborness and ego at the top of reasons why. But he did draft KP (and was dragged across the coals for it if you remember. He was killed for not signing Greg Monroe and Lamarcus Aldridge (who was never going to come here) but signed some decent FA's in Robin Lopez, KOQ, Courtney Lee. Obviously the Noah signing was bad -- I think that happens. He probably should have ditched Melo but what kind of s#!tstorm would have followed that? Frank remains to be seen but looks to be a good piece going forward. And to me the main thing he did right might be he never traded a #1 pick. Tell me that isn't a big deal. Think Bargiani trade.

Am I saying Phil was great? Hell no. But the level of hate for him is irrational. Relative to recent prior GMs, he was pretty okay.

I was really excited when Phil was hired. I remember how excited Clyde was and I thought this time it is going to be different. Also, his having autonomy was a first and I thought he would rebuild the Knicks. But he was really bad. He sh@t the bed in every aspect of his job as an executive. You would be hard pressed to find any executive that could turn what he took over into 80-166, make the environment more toxic, be really bad at trades and give out two of the worst contracts in professional sports. Yes he did not trade the 2018 pick. That was a blessing because the roster he created is so devoid of talent that that pick is very valuable. I don't know of any knick fan that started off not liking Phil or the hire. He earned the dislike that he left with.

HofstraBBall wrote:Too soon? We spent a long time arguing about how the Triangle and Phil were a terrible choice to begin a successful rebuild. Now the king of stupidity is admiting that it was a problem and claimed Phil was out of touch and did not relate to tadays players? Claimed that JH's problem was that he was like Phil, in that he was stuck in the past? (My Gripe from day one of the Phil/Triangle era) Yet he does not take any of the blame for being the guy that put antiquated Phil/Triangle in charge. This guy cannot lead or take responsibility. No respect for him. He should sell the team and move on to some crappy jazz club and call it a day. Yeah right. That will happen.

Where are the guys that argued the Triangle/Phil was the right plan to build a long term future? As their excuse was always "Wait and see". Well its now completely over and we have not heard from the Phil/Triangle supporters. Some of us saw how short sighted it was to trust a Prez/System that was "Stuck in the past" and out of touch with Todays NBA. Although Dolan did not take the blame he did finnaly admit it was the reason it did not work . Anyone else have the Bballs?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...

I know this is going to sound like I'm defending Dolan but to be fair,

You have to look at how phil presented himself to an Owner who admitted to not knowing much about building a winning culture(brain wash). Phil Hired Fisher for 2 reasons 1)he could relate to today's player 2)he can mold a young coach into himself.

JH (we now realize) had the same thought process as phil, that's why he came out of the blue and nailed the job. They spent an entire day together and had a 6 hr diner discussing their IDEAS.

Mills has already interviewed 5 coaches in less than a week, and phil interviewed just 3 in almost a month. What Dolan is saying now is something that has clearly becoming super obvious.

It's easy to hire a person who talks a good game during the interviewing process but when he gets on the job your like WTF.

What make dolan STILL an Idiot (IMO) is that he promoted MILLs, a guy who was part of phils disaster, A guy who couldn't bring in a single all star(since he's been here) despite having major cap space, a guy who couldn't help phil facilitate better trades, A guy who signed JR smiths brother, A guy who has been every part of the losing culture from the DAY he started

knicks1248 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Too soon? We spent a long time arguing about how the Triangle and Phil were a terrible choice to begin a successful rebuild. Now the king of stupidity is admiting that it was a problem and claimed Phil was out of touch and did not relate to tadays players? Claimed that JH's problem was that he was like Phil, in that he was stuck in the past? (My Gripe from day one of the Phil/Triangle era) Yet he does not take any of the blame for being the guy that put antiquated Phil/Triangle in charge. This guy cannot lead or take responsibility. No respect for him. He should sell the team and move on to some crappy jazz club and call it a day. Yeah right. That will happen.

Where are the guys that argued the Triangle/Phil was the right plan to build a long term future? As their excuse was always "Wait and see". Well its now completely over and we have not heard from the Phil/Triangle supporters. Some of us saw how short sighted it was to trust a Prez/System that was "Stuck in the past" and out of touch with Todays NBA. Although Dolan did not take the blame he did finnaly admit it was the reason it did not work . Anyone else have the Bballs?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...

I know this is going to sound like I'm defending Dolan but to be fair,

You have to look at how phil presented himself to an Owner who admitted to not knowing much about building a winning culture(brain wash). Phil Hired Fisher for 2 reasons 1)he could relate to today's player 2)he can mold a young coach into himself.

JH (we now realize) had the same thought process as phil, that's why he came out of the blue and nailed the job. They spent an entire day together and had a 6 hr diner discussing their IDEAS.

Mills has already interviewed 5 coaches in less than a week, and phil interviewed just 3 in almost a month. What Dolan is saying now is something that has clearly becoming super obvious.

It's easy to hire a person who talks a good game during the interviewing process but when he gets on the job your like WTF.

What make dolan STILL an Idiot (IMO) is that he promoted MILLs, a guy who was part of phils disaster, A guy who couldn't bring in a single all star(since he's been here) despite having major cap space, a guy who couldn't help phil facilitate better trades, A guy who signed JR smiths brother, A guy who has been every part of the losing culture from the DAY he started

All the stuff about Mills is true and yet I feel he did the right thing in hiring Perry. I think that move is the best thing Mills has done. This coaching search has the potential of being the next best thing. If they can continue to make smart decisions that's going to lead to success IMO. Let's see how this Coach search pans out and take it into the Draft and Free Agency this summer. I'm hoping for the best cuz this is a very pivotal summer.

Dont get a gift basket for the worst record in franchise history under your watch.

Dude, there are people here that still defend Isiah Thomas.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Too soon? We spent a long time arguing about how the Triangle and Phil were a terrible choice to begin a successful rebuild. Now the king of stupidity is admiting that it was a problem and claimed Phil was out of touch and did not relate to tadays players? Claimed that JH's problem was that he was like Phil, in that he was stuck in the past? (My Gripe from day one of the Phil/Triangle era) Yet he does not take any of the blame for being the guy that put antiquated Phil/Triangle in charge. This guy cannot lead or take responsibility. No respect for him. He should sell the team and move on to some crappy jazz club and call it a day. Yeah right. That will happen.

Where are the guys that argued the Triangle/Phil was the right plan to build a long term future? As their excuse was always "Wait and see". Well its now completely over and we have not heard from the Phil/Triangle supporters. Some of us saw how short sighted it was to trust a Prez/System that was "Stuck in the past" and out of touch with Todays NBA. Although Dolan did not take the blame he did finnaly admit it was the reason it did not work . Anyone else have the Bballs?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...

I know this is going to sound like I'm defending Dolan but to be fair,

You have to look at how phil presented himself to an Owner who admitted to not knowing much about building a winning culture(brain wash). Phil Hired Fisher for 2 reasons 1)he could relate to today's player 2)he can mold a young coach into himself.

JH (we now realize) had the same thought process as phil, that's why he came out of the blue and nailed the job. They spent an entire day together and had a 6 hr diner discussing their IDEAS.

Mills has already interviewed 5 coaches in less than a week, and phil interviewed just 3 in almost a month. What Dolan is saying now is something that has clearly becoming super obvious.

It's easy to hire a person who talks a good game during the interviewing process but when he gets on the job your like WTF.

What make dolan STILL an Idiot (IMO) is that he promoted MILLs, a guy who was part of phils disaster, A guy who couldn't bring in a single all star(since he's been here) despite having major cap space, a guy who couldn't help phil facilitate better trades, A guy who signed JR smiths brother, A guy who has been every part of the losing culture from the DAY he started

All the stuff about Mills is true and yet I feel he did the right thing in hiring Perry. I think that move is the best thing Mills has done. This coaching search has the potential of being the next best thing. If they can continue to make smart decisions that's going to lead to success IMO. Let's see how this Coach search pans out and take it into the Draft and Free Agency this summer. I'm hoping for the best cuz this is a very pivotal summer.

That's your optimism, the only smart move they made was FIRING JH. There's hasn't been any success to say they are continuing.

Perry comes from Orlando where they never got the coaching thing right, Never got an All star to signed with them, and just poor to AVG draft selections. Now they are looking for a coach who thinks like them

Budenholzer is a fan of the triangle and uses a lot of it- there’s an interview on YouTube of him discussing it[8D

Assuming KP rebounds and becomes a perennial all star thank Phil. Add Frank to that thanks. Phil made a bonehead move here and there but KOQ was also Phil. 13 rings. The guy knew hoops just Melo was being Melo.

Nalod wrote:KP was wrong to skip meeting but trading him in response was what a coach would do if a player tuned him out.

Another part of him trading KP, if what i heard is true, was he didnt believe KP would stay healthy, and granted the ACL injury can happen to anyone, KP was held out alot for "maintenence or nagging problems". Now I know alot of people hold up Steph Curry as an example to stick with it, but what if the Knicka had the 3 (Boston pick from NJ) and the 8 in the Frank N draft? Maybe better than 8 because without KP they would have had a worse record.

Not saying the plan was right or wrong just that he may have had a point, but we may have ended up with any combination of 2 of Fox/Tatum/Markenen/Jackson

joec32033 wrote:

Nalod wrote:KP was wrong to skip meeting but trading him in response was what a coach would do if a player tuned him out.

Another part of him trading KP, if what i heard is true, was he didnt believe KP would stay healthy, and granted the ACL injury can happen to anyone, KP was held out alot for "maintenence or nagging problems". Now I know alot of people hold up Steph Curry as an example to stick with it, but what if the Knicka had the 3 (Boston pick from NJ) and the 8 in the Frank N draft? Maybe better than 8 because without KP they would have had a worse record.

Not saying the plan was right or wrong just that he may have had a point, but we may have ended up with any combination of 2 of Fox/Tatum/Markenen/Jackson

I tgink the biggest issue was it was a reaction to the exit meeting issue and a general mutiny from the team. If it was thought out with reason and was purely a basketball decision then it has some merit. I don't think that was the case though.

CrushAlot wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

Nalod wrote:KP was wrong to skip meeting but trading him in response was what a coach would do if a player tuned him out.

Another part of him trading KP, if what i heard is true, was he didnt believe KP would stay healthy, and granted the ACL injury can happen to anyone, KP was held out alot for "maintenence or nagging problems". Now I know alot of people hold up Steph Curry as an example to stick with it, but what if the Knicka had the 3 (Boston pick from NJ) and the 8 in the Frank N draft? Maybe better than 8 because without KP they would have had a worse record.

Not saying the plan was right or wrong just that he may have had a point, but we may have ended up with any combination of 2 of Fox/Tatum/Markenen/Jackson

I tgink the biggest issue was it was a reaction to the exit meeting issue and a general mutiny from the team. If it was thought out with reason and was purely a basketball decision then it has some merit. I don't think that was the case though.

True. And if that was Jackson's thinking about the injury thing, maybe he didn't think KP was worth the drama and the exit interview was the last straw. Either way we wont know if it was the right decision for years, if even then. We have to see how KP's career actually pans out. I like him as a player but i swear watching him go off the dribble with sone of the ways his legs bend, im just waiting for them to break.

In hindsight, and Kyrie wanted out quickly and Haywood pending free agency, what would have Boston really done?
I think Ainge would also doubt KP’s durability as well and value a trade accordingly?
Since we in hindsight fantasy, why not say we draft Mitchell as well?