Knicks · Stuff on Mudiay from Cleaning the Glass article (page 1)

CrushAlot @ 6/14/2018 3:46 PM
The biggest question mark of the 2015 draft was Emmanuel Mudiay. The 6-foot-5 point guard was the No. 2 ranked player in his high school class, No. 1 at his position. Larry Brown, who recruited him to SMU, called him “the most special point guard I’ve ever seen at that age”. But Mudiay would never play for Brown. Worried about NCAA eligibility issues and NBA draft ineligible for another year, Mudiay signed a contract in China.

His season with the Guangdong Tigers did not go quite as planned, either. After 10 games, Mudiay hurt his ankle and remained sidelined for the rest of the regular season. Rumors swirled about whether there was a dispute with Guangdong about his health. It seemed the Tigers might cut him in the middle of the season, hoping to free up one of their international roster spots and sign another American in his stead for the playoffs. Eventually, and on short notice, Mudiay ended up playing in two playoff games.

This left NBA teams in a difficult position. Anyone who wanted to see him live had to have made a trip early or been willing to hop on a last-second plane to China for the playoffs. Good film on his games, meanwhile, was sparse. Synergy Sports only had one of his games logged; other video services were similarly lacking.

I worked for the 76ers at the time, and Mudiay was a high-priority target for us. After the trade of Michael Carter-Williams midway through that previous season, we had a hole at point guard. We needed to know as much as we could about Mudiay to make the most informed decision possible, but circumstances were making that complicated.

We did everything we could. We acquired the film of all of his games and watched them in painstaking detail. We recorded stats from that film. We compared his stats to other Americans who had played in the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA), to get some sense of how his play measured up.

And what we found concerned us. Mudiay seemed to be lacking a burst around the basket, so that even in the CBA, a league not known for its defense, he was not an efficient scorer. For a player with a shaky shot who had not displayed good touch away from the basket, poor finishing at the rim and a below-average rate of drawing fouls were major red flags. Further testing during his workouts only deepened those fears. Mudiay needed to be a rim attacker, but we feared he didn’t have the athleticism for it.

Through three full NBA seasons, that analysis seems to have been correct. Mudiay has been one of the least efficient players in the NBA in each of those seasons. In particular, although he does take a high rate of shots at the basket, he has been a dreadful finisher. This past year is the first in which he made more than 50% of his shots at the basket.

Other important observations from that study have also proved prescient. Mudiay’s defense was worrying: he was often out of place, did not play with high energy, and displayed poor technique. And Mudiay was turnover-prone, with a tendency for jump-passes and for trying to make the home-run play. Sure enough, Mudiay has been both turnover-prone and a very poor defender in his time in the NBA. It’s no wonder the seventh overall pick in the draft was traded for a second-round pick just two-and-a-half years after he was selected.

This is all easy to say in retrospect, of course. At the time, taking a position on Mudiay that was lower than the consensus still wasn’t predicting this level of performance. For all of his faults, he seemed to be a very good pick-and-roll passer, making the right reads in spread situations. And there were arguments to be made that there was still upside in his mental approach to the game and even to maximizing his athleticism. Perhaps, even if he had major flaws as an 18-year-old, those flaws could lessened with time and work, and the advantages he did have could be emphasized. Even with all of that research and digging, there was still plenty of uncertainty around Mudiay’s future.


https://cleaningtheglass.com/the-michael...
franco12 @ 6/14/2018 4:00 PM
Kid never got development. He needs to this summer. Would love for him to play summer league - don't think he can.

He has the tools. Can he develop them? I've seen flashes in his game. Its a question for between the ears.

Vmart @ 6/14/2018 5:38 PM
Over hyped and can’t blame anyone for his lack of development but Mudiay. If he was any good he would still be in Denver. Absolutely a dumb time wasting pick up.
WaltLongmire @ 6/14/2018 5:45 PM
franco12 wrote:Kid never got development. He needs to this summer. Would love for him to play summer league - don't think he can.

He has the tools. Can he develop them? I've seen flashes in his game. Its a question for between the ears.


Don't know the reasons why he did it, and I expect that he would have benefited playing with Brown, but going to China instead of Europe was probably a mistake in that they basically let him play unfettered ball, where he could do his thing without being forced to the bench.

Maybe the Euro teams didn't want a 1 & done player, I don't know, but he needed a learning environment where he wasn't just told to take the ball and do his thing. The league in China might be more exciting to watch, but I don't think the learning experience is the same as it is in European ball.

franco12 @ 6/14/2018 7:20 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
franco12 wrote:Kid never got development. He needs to this summer. Would love for him to play summer league - don't think he can.

He has the tools. Can he develop them? I've seen flashes in his game. Its a question for between the ears.


Don't know the reasons why he did it, and I expect that he would have benefited playing with Brown, but going to China instead of Europe was probably a mistake in that they basically let him play unfettered ball, where he could do his thing without being forced to the bench.

Maybe the Euro teams didn't want a 1 & done player, I don't know, but he needed a learning environment where he wasn't just told to take the ball and do his thing. The league in China might be more exciting to watch, but I don't think the learning experience is the same as it is in European ball.

He probably needed 4 years of college ball!

These are 18 year old kids. Children. Some of them are good enough to make the jump. Others aren't, and that doesn't mean that don't belong in the league. See Burke.

Jmpasq @ 6/14/2018 7:58 PM
Vmart wrote:Over hyped and can’t blame anyone for his lack of development but Mudiay. If he was any good he would still be in Denver. Absolutely a dumb time wasting pick up.

Probably a Mills move
ekstarks94 @ 6/14/2018 10:47 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:
franco12 wrote:Kid never got development. He needs to this summer. Would love for him to play summer league - don't think he can.

He has the tools. Can he develop them? I've seen flashes in his game. Its a question for between the ears.


Don't know the reasons why he did it, and I expect that he would have benefited playing with Brown, but going to China instead of Europe was probably a mistake in that they basically let him play unfettered ball, where he could do his thing without being forced to the bench.

Maybe the Euro teams didn't want a 1 & done player, I don't know, but he needed a learning environment where he wasn't just told to take the ball and do his thing. The league in China might be more exciting to watch, but I don't think the learning experience is the same as it is in European ball.


Larry would of strangled this kid
Vmart @ 6/15/2018 8:05 AM
ekstarks94 wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
franco12 wrote:Kid never got development. He needs to this summer. Would love for him to play summer league - don't think he can.

He has the tools. Can he develop them? I've seen flashes in his game. Its a question for between the ears.


Don't know the reasons why he did it, and I expect that he would have benefited playing with Brown, but going to China instead of Europe was probably a mistake in that they basically let him play unfettered ball, where he could do his thing without being forced to the bench.

Maybe the Euro teams didn't want a 1 & done player, I don't know, but he needed a learning environment where he wasn't just told to take the ball and do his thing. The league in China might be more exciting to watch, but I don't think the learning experience is the same as it is in European ball.


Larry would of strangled this kid

Now who is the delusional one.

ekstarks94 @ 6/15/2018 1:28 PM
Vmart wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:
franco12 wrote:Kid never got development. He needs to this summer. Would love for him to play summer league - don't think he can.

He has the tools. Can he develop them? I've seen flashes in his game. Its a question for between the ears.


Don't know the reasons why he did it, and I expect that he would have benefited playing with Brown, but going to China instead of Europe was probably a mistake in that they basically let him play unfettered ball, where he could do his thing without being forced to the bench.

Maybe the Euro teams didn't want a 1 & done player, I don't know, but he needed a learning environment where he wasn't just told to take the ball and do his thing. The league in China might be more exciting to watch, but I don't think the learning experience is the same as it is in European ball.


Larry would of strangled this kid

Now who is the delusional one.


If you have to ask....well....
WaltLongmire @ 6/18/2018 2:28 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
The biggest question mark of the 2015 draft was Emmanuel Mudiay. The 6-foot-5 point guard was the No. 2 ranked player in his high school class, No. 1 at his position. Larry Brown, who recruited him to SMU, called him “the most special point guard I’ve ever seen at that age”. But Mudiay would never play for Brown. Worried about NCAA eligibility issues and NBA draft ineligible for another year, Mudiay signed a contract in China.

His season with the Guangdong Tigers did not go quite as planned, either. After 10 games, Mudiay hurt his ankle and remained sidelined for the rest of the regular season. Rumors swirled about whether there was a dispute with Guangdong about his health. It seemed the Tigers might cut him in the middle of the season, hoping to free up one of their international roster spots and sign another American in his stead for the playoffs. Eventually, and on short notice, Mudiay ended up playing in two playoff games.

This left NBA teams in a difficult position. Anyone who wanted to see him live had to have made a trip early or been willing to hop on a last-second plane to China for the playoffs. Good film on his games, meanwhile, was sparse. Synergy Sports only had one of his games logged; other video services were similarly lacking.

I worked for the 76ers at the time, and Mudiay was a high-priority target for us. After the trade of Michael Carter-Williams midway through that previous season, we had a hole at point guard. We needed to know as much as we could about Mudiay to make the most informed decision possible, but circumstances were making that complicated.

We did everything we could. We acquired the film of all of his games and watched them in painstaking detail. We recorded stats from that film. We compared his stats to other Americans who had played in the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA), to get some sense of how his play measured up.

And what we found concerned us. Mudiay seemed to be lacking a burst around the basket, so that even in the CBA, a league not known for its defense, he was not an efficient scorer. For a player with a shaky shot who had not displayed good touch away from the basket, poor finishing at the rim and a below-average rate of drawing fouls were major red flags. Further testing during his workouts only deepened those fears. Mudiay needed to be a rim attacker, but we feared he didn’t have the athleticism for it.

Through three full NBA seasons, that analysis seems to have been correct. Mudiay has been one of the least efficient players in the NBA in each of those seasons. In particular, although he does take a high rate of shots at the basket, he has been a dreadful finisher. This past year is the first in which he made more than 50% of his shots at the basket.

Other important observations from that study have also proved prescient. Mudiay’s defense was worrying: he was often out of place, did not play with high energy, and displayed poor technique. And Mudiay was turnover-prone, with a tendency for jump-passes and for trying to make the home-run play. Sure enough, Mudiay has been both turnover-prone and a very poor defender in his time in the NBA. It’s no wonder the seventh overall pick in the draft was traded for a second-round pick just two-and-a-half years after he was selected.

This is all easy to say in retrospect, of course. At the time, taking a position on Mudiay that was lower than the consensus still wasn’t predicting this level of performance. For all of his faults, he seemed to be a very good pick-and-roll passer, making the right reads in spread situations. And there were arguments to be made that there was still upside in his mental approach to the game and even to maximizing his athleticism. Perhaps, even if he had major flaws as an 18-year-old, those flaws could lessened with time and work, and the advantages he did have could be emphasized. Even with all of that research and digging, there was still plenty of uncertainty around Mudiay’s future.


https://cleaningtheglass.com/the-michael...

Didn't think of this the first time I read it...But for all the sound analysis of Mudiay by the Sixers' scouting team...look at the player they chose instead of him, especially his defense.

smackeddog @ 6/18/2018 4:59 AM
Mudiay is like one of those prospects who's tabbed as ultra athletic, but raw and lacking skills, except he doesn't even have the ultra athleticism. I honestly don't get what exactly he brings to the table. He doesn't seem to have the work ethic to improve, in fact I can't really see any area he's improved on since he's been in the league. Factor in his weight gain/ lack of definition and I don't see him lasting much longer in the league. I'm willing to give him this last chance, but if he checks into training camp having dogged the offseason, I'm done with him.
fishmike @ 6/18/2018 8:08 AM
smackeddog wrote:Mudiay is like one of those prospects who's tabbed as ultra athletic, but raw and lacking skills, except he doesn't even have the ultra athleticism. I honestly don't get what exactly he brings to the table. He doesn't seem to have the work ethic to improve, in fact I can't really see any area he's improved on since he's been in the league. Factor in his weight gain/ lack of definition and I don't see him lasting much longer in the league. I'm willing to give him this last chance, but if he checks into training camp having dogged the offseason, I'm done with him.
He's 2 years younger than Dotson. He just turned 22 around the end of the season. I think its as simple as this... they knew they were done w/ McD and probably targeted a young player who might be a reclamation project.

All I can really say about Mudiay is if you are going to target a young guy on the down and cheap he qualifies. Its most likely he fizzles and he's out of the league, but he's also at the age where things can start clicking.

He's a worth a look, but I have low expectations. However if you look hard and work on enough of these guys maybe you find a guy who just needed more time. We should be bringing in young athletic guys and see if they can make the program. Mudiay has the tools to be a better defender. He's been abysmal there. He wont hit the floor if he's not better. Not with Frank, Burke and Baker on the roster

nixluva @ 6/18/2018 5:56 PM
fishmike wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Mudiay is like one of those prospects who's tabbed as ultra athletic, but raw and lacking skills, except he doesn't even have the ultra athleticism. I honestly don't get what exactly he brings to the table. He doesn't seem to have the work ethic to improve, in fact I can't really see any area he's improved on since he's been in the league. Factor in his weight gain/ lack of definition and I don't see him lasting much longer in the league. I'm willing to give him this last chance, but if he checks into training camp having dogged the offseason, I'm done with him.
He's 2 years younger than Dotson. He just turned 22 around the end of the season. I think its as simple as this... they knew they were done w/ McD and probably targeted a young player who might be a reclamation project.

All I can really say about Mudiay is if you are going to target a young guy on the down and cheap he qualifies. Its most likely he fizzles and he's out of the league, but he's also at the age where things can start clicking.

He's a worth a look, but I have low expectations. However if you look hard and work on enough of these guys maybe you find a guy who just needed more time. We should be bringing in young athletic guys and see if they can make the program. Mudiay has the tools to be a better defender. He's been abysmal there. He wont hit the floor if he's not better. Not with Frank, Burke and Baker on the roster

This Knicks Development Group is much improved IMO. Fiz is bringing that Miami Program which has been very successful. That’s why he was so confident sounding when he addressed Mudiay. It’s worth taking a chance to see what they can do.

GustavBahler @ 6/18/2018 7:22 PM
The longer Mudiay holds onto the ball, the worse off the team is for it. Not confident in his ability to be a finisher, but there other areas he could excel at if he works on that hitch in his shot.

Mudiay is elusive in short bursts of speed. Becoming a good shooter off the dribble would be one way. Less time to overthink his release, or turn the ball over.

Ir would get the defense's attention. Give Mudiay more opportunities to find cutters. When Mudiay is focused on sharing the rock, he makes fast, crisp, passes.

Chandler @ 6/19/2018 9:43 AM
at this point i'd rather have kept Wily (especially given the nightmare situation developing for us at center) and/or the 2d round picks

Kid's head isn't screwed on right -- it's that simple. Can't shoot and doesn't attack the rim. Larry Brown was a very effective coach but absolutely one of the worst eyes for NBA talent from college level

martin @ 6/19/2018 10:31 AM
for me this pic says a lot about Mudiay

Cartman718 @ 6/19/2018 10:55 AM
martin wrote:for me this pic says a lot about Mudiay

Exactly...why is he not in there?

Cartman718 @ 6/19/2018 11:12 AM
martin wrote:for me this pic says a lot about Mudiay

also...damean dotson looking like he's ready to defend any SG in the world!!!

Cartman718 @ 6/19/2018 11:21 AM

which is responded to by Mudiay with...


and then a couple of weeks later, a random tweet

NYKBocker @ 6/19/2018 12:47 PM
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:for me this pic says a lot about Mudiay

also...damean dotson looking like he's ready to defend any SG in the world!!!

Frank looks like he is the same height as Troy Williams now. Wow.

martin @ 6/19/2018 1:53 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:for me this pic says a lot about Mudiay

also...damean dotson looking like he's ready to defend any SG in the world!!!

Frank looks like he is the same height as Troy Williams now. Wow.

Definitely broader and stronger.

I think Frank posted up just about once last year and scored. If he could do that regularly it would be DEVASTATING to opposing teams

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