Knicks · Another Year, Another PG Problem (page 3)
knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:Knixkik wrote:How is that not Frank? As bad as Frank's offense has been if he starts he's got 3 scorers next to him in Morris/Randle/RJ. We dont need a scoring PG in that line up. We need a ball handler who sets guys up and plays D.knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:I like what we have everywhere else right now. Mitch and Bobby at Center, Randle at PF, Morris and Knox at SF, and Barrett at SG. All can be keepers. But PG once again leaves so much to be desired. Payton is probably the safest bet right now, and maybe he can take a legit step forward. But he can't shoot and seems like a poor long-term fit alongside Barrett, since he's going to be a playmaker. Dennis Smith has talent, sure, and he may have some big breakout games here and there. But he feels more like a long-term 6th man type in the Present-day D Rose mold. Frank looked good guarding Young and has a future in the league as a backup, defensive stopper. But what's the long-term answer at PG? None of these guys can shoot. Hope for Payton or Smith to break out? Next year's draft has some options i guess. The PG market in free agency doesn't look great the next couple of years. We could go after VanVleet in the offseason, who's fit is excellent next to Barrett, but not sure if overpaying him is the answer. Hopefully the front office can figure this out. It's been going on way too long.I literally was about to start a thread on the this same topic..
To make matters worse, Fiz has basically given just about everyone the green light to bring the ball up court in his positionless system. I saw knox, rj, dsj, frank, Morris, randle, ellington all given the opportunity,and none of them look fluid.
I think we had like 2 fast breaks the entire game and scored 96 points, that is absolutely ridiculous, go look at the scoreboard from all the games last night, almost every team that won scored 120 or more, and no one scored less than 110, except GSW who rested everybody who rested curry.The funny thing is they all keep saying they are not worry about the offense, but that looks worse than the defense, all we have is Pick and roll and post play, that's 90's style basketball.
I could give DSJ a pass cause he hasn't play in a game since march, but the rest of our guards can not shoot at all, and our bigs shoot better from the perimeter, thats crazy.
How do you pair so many bad shooters in your back court..WTH
I think Barrett will be a good playmaker once he gets his NBA footing. He's good in the open floor and will improve his decision making as the year goes. It's all about finding someone who pairs well with him now.
to say you don't need a pg that can score in this day and age is crazy, because 9 out 10 times the opposing team will have one. That opposing PG will basically be free to roam on defense because his opponent is shooting 30%.
You saw that first hand last night with trey young barely playing any Defense at all, and frank and DSJ combing for 6 points on 25% shooting in a combine 42 minutes, and only 2 FT. Trey had 10 FTA
Even when RJ was running point, him and the team rarely took advantage of the mis match.
My question is, How are we going to get easy baskets when the entire team is walking the ball up court even on miss shots? You just can't play like that and expect to win
I think you are confusing the PG position with other positions. The opposing team will not be free to roam on defense. Why? Because it's the PG. He will have the ball for the most part of the half court set. If his defender roams freely then he is not doing a very good job. Now if you are saying they will sag off him when he deliver an entry pass to the post then maybe but that has not happened because why? Frank after he delivers the entry pass clears out and takes his defender with him. Basketball 101.
Walking the ball up? Dude. Frank is one of the better players in recognizing when to pass ahead. His head is always up. When he sees a teammate ahead of him in transition he always passes ahead. Again, Basketball 101. You want him to dribble all the way and make some crazy highlight type play? Man, that is not his game. Frank is a game manager on offense. He looks at who is hot and/or who has a mismatch and gets them the ball.
You are so infatuated with one-on-one basketball that blinds you to the fact that PGs are suppose the direct and set up his team to get the other 4 players involved.
Elfrid is has reached his ceiling. He is a backup PG right now. Nothing wrong with that. Teams need those type of players.
DSJr right now is not healthy and anybody can see that. Unfortunately, his game is all about athleticism. He is not a very smart basketball player. His defense is horrible. Right now, he needs to get healthy. I don't know if he will ever be healthy.
If Fizdale doesn't start Frank then he is stupid. Frank's defense and intangibles is just too good to overlook.
I mean if I am a player then I would love to play with him as my PG. Dude is a very willing and capable passer. His passes are also very accurate. He gives you the ball where you can actually do something with it.
GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:I am a Frank guy. He defends great and he knows how to be a PG. His shooting MUST improve. The thing with Frank is that he has good form and his shots are usually hitting the front of the rim when he misses. IN practice vidoes he hits all his shots, so I am wondering if it is just a mental thing with him in games? Confidence? maybe h needs a sports psychologist?Of the 3 players, he is the most complete. None of them shoot well enough to give an advantage to one. DSjr can get ot the basket a LITTLE better but the rest go to Frank. Payton has shown to be a decent guy off the bench. Many truple doubles in his resume, so he can be effective. Always a slow starter if I recall.
I would look to move DSjr for a proven shooter or a future draft pick.
The Knicks do not have enough pure shooters on the team.
I totally agree. Frank buys a shot and he is golden. His form looks good. Definitely a confidence thing.
NYKBocker wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:I am a Frank guy. He defends great and he knows how to be a PG. His shooting MUST improve. The thing with Frank is that he has good form and his shots are usually hitting the front of the rim when he misses. IN practice vidoes he hits all his shots, so I am wondering if it is just a mental thing with him in games? Confidence? maybe h needs a sports psychologist?Of the 3 players, he is the most complete. None of them shoot well enough to give an advantage to one. DSjr can get ot the basket a LITTLE better but the rest go to Frank. Payton has shown to be a decent guy off the bench. Many truple doubles in his resume, so he can be effective. Always a slow starter if I recall.
I would look to move DSjr for a proven shooter or a future draft pick.
The Knicks do not have enough pure shooters on the team.
I totally agree. Frank buys a shot and he is golden. His form looks good. Definitely a confidence thing.
Yeah his form is fine. He's definitely not a non-shooter. It's mainly a confidence thing.
I have no problem with another season of development. Not tanking, but placing a priority on growing the yoot.
Believe Knox and RJ get minutes not based on production but on progress.
I go with Payton to start, Frank off the bench.
I start RJ. Smith backs him up. with Ellington and eventually bullock I really don’t know what to do with Trier and Dotson.
If I’m wrong on frank then we don’t extend him and I assume trade him.
Vs Atlanta I did not see the other 4 guys hit any shots. I saw frank make plays that kept us in the game. Would have been sweet if he hit that 3 pointer!!! He did not.
Him and Smith are either prospects as seen by the Staff or not. Nobody here knows. I have not seen DSjr do his thing.
Knicks have surplus talent. That’s bizarre. The young guys are too young, the new guys are good role players.
I like Morris. I like the idea of him. I just prefer Knox’ upside. I want my cake and get to 30 wins.
Ian Bagly writes a byline that some players are not happy with role. Not a mention who. I’d guess its Trier and perhaps Randle as he wants more touches?
IF a team is not above .500 its not a happy team. I don’t see much fun anytime soon.
I really don’t know what this team is doing with its roster. Perhaps that becomes clearer soon. I all stupidly angry proclaiming Fiz or FO gets fired. Its an open ended questions.
NYKBocker wrote:knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:Knixkik wrote:How is that not Frank? As bad as Frank's offense has been if he starts he's got 3 scorers next to him in Morris/Randle/RJ. We dont need a scoring PG in that line up. We need a ball handler who sets guys up and plays D.knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:I like what we have everywhere else right now. Mitch and Bobby at Center, Randle at PF, Morris and Knox at SF, and Barrett at SG. All can be keepers. But PG once again leaves so much to be desired. Payton is probably the safest bet right now, and maybe he can take a legit step forward. But he can't shoot and seems like a poor long-term fit alongside Barrett, since he's going to be a playmaker. Dennis Smith has talent, sure, and he may have some big breakout games here and there. But he feels more like a long-term 6th man type in the Present-day D Rose mold. Frank looked good guarding Young and has a future in the league as a backup, defensive stopper. But what's the long-term answer at PG? None of these guys can shoot. Hope for Payton or Smith to break out? Next year's draft has some options i guess. The PG market in free agency doesn't look great the next couple of years. We could go after VanVleet in the offseason, who's fit is excellent next to Barrett, but not sure if overpaying him is the answer. Hopefully the front office can figure this out. It's been going on way too long.I literally was about to start a thread on the this same topic..
To make matters worse, Fiz has basically given just about everyone the green light to bring the ball up court in his positionless system. I saw knox, rj, dsj, frank, Morris, randle, ellington all given the opportunity,and none of them look fluid.
I think we had like 2 fast breaks the entire game and scored 96 points, that is absolutely ridiculous, go look at the scoreboard from all the games last night, almost every team that won scored 120 or more, and no one scored less than 110, except GSW who rested everybody who rested curry.The funny thing is they all keep saying they are not worry about the offense, but that looks worse than the defense, all we have is Pick and roll and post play, that's 90's style basketball.
I could give DSJ a pass cause he hasn't play in a game since march, but the rest of our guards can not shoot at all, and our bigs shoot better from the perimeter, thats crazy.
How do you pair so many bad shooters in your back court..WTH
I think Barrett will be a good playmaker once he gets his NBA footing. He's good in the open floor and will improve his decision making as the year goes. It's all about finding someone who pairs well with him now.
to say you don't need a pg that can score in this day and age is crazy, because 9 out 10 times the opposing team will have one. That opposing PG will basically be free to roam on defense because his opponent is shooting 30%.
You saw that first hand last night with trey young barely playing any Defense at all, and frank and DSJ combing for 6 points on 25% shooting in a combine 42 minutes, and only 2 FT. Trey had 10 FTA
Even when RJ was running point, him and the team rarely took advantage of the mis match.
My question is, How are we going to get easy baskets when the entire team is walking the ball up court even on miss shots? You just can't play like that and expect to win
I think you are confusing the PG position with other positions. The opposing team will not be free to roam on defense. Why? Because it's the PG. He will have the ball for the most part of the half court set. If his defender roams freely then he is not doing a very good job. Now if you are saying they will sag off him when he deliver an entry pass to the post then maybe but that has not happened because why? Frank after he delivers the entry pass clears out and takes his defender with him. Basketball 101.
Walking the ball up? Dude. Frank is one of the better players in recognizing when to pass ahead. His head is always up. When he sees a teammate ahead of him in transition he always passes ahead. Again, Basketball 101. You want him to dribble all the way and make some crazy highlight type play? Man, that is not his game. Frank is a game manager on offense. He looks at who is hot and/or who has a mismatch and gets them the ball.
You are so infatuated with one-on-one basketball that blinds you to the fact that PGs are suppose the direct and set up his team to get the other 4 players involved.
Elfrid is has reached his ceiling. He is a backup PG right now. Nothing wrong with that. Teams need those type of players.
DSJr right now is not healthy and anybody can see that. Unfortunately, his game is all about athleticism. He is not a very smart basketball player. His defense is horrible. Right now, he needs to get healthy. I don't know if he will ever be healthy.
If Fizdale doesn't start Frank then he is stupid. Frank's defense and intangibles is just too good to overlook.
I mean if I am a player then I would love to play with him as my PG. Dude is a very willing and capable passer. His passes are also very accurate. He gives you the ball where you can actually do something with it.
Are you crazy, or just a homer..Frank walks the ball up and hands it off to a player and disappears..how many double digit assist has he had in 2 yr..one my friend..he does have intangibles, but shooting bricks is a major problem
If a passed the ball as well as you say he does, and set guys up as good as you say he does, there would be no need to keep bringing in PG after pg and experimenting with PF and sf playing point..
Payton notched a triple-double in his first start for the Pelicans, and led the team to a 4-0 record before an ankle sprain caused him to miss nine games.
Elfrid reach his ceiling???? what???? at the age of 24/25..lol..the only reason he's not with the Pels was because of the AD trade that brought in Lonzo, and they have Holiday, not to mention the $$$ we gave him..
Your Down on DSJ (14pg and 5 asst in 2 yrs), and high on frank (5pts and 3 asst in 2 yrs) both have major, major flaws on one side of the ball... your playing favorites..please be honest
NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
The best PGs in the league have screens set for them. Shouldnt even be a debate about wether or not Smith jr. should have screens set for him as well. Unless the plan is to force him to try to do too much,
Has said in interviews repeatedly that he is tired of hearing what a ball stopper he is. He's sharing the rock. His teammates should set screens so he doesnt have to get dribble happy. Believe Smith jr's footwork is good enough to handle using screens.
Too early to tell if Smith jr. is hurt IMO, believe we will have a better idea tonight.
knicks1248 wrote:NYKBocker wrote:knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:Knixkik wrote:How is that not Frank? As bad as Frank's offense has been if he starts he's got 3 scorers next to him in Morris/Randle/RJ. We dont need a scoring PG in that line up. We need a ball handler who sets guys up and plays D.knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:I like what we have everywhere else right now. Mitch and Bobby at Center, Randle at PF, Morris and Knox at SF, and Barrett at SG. All can be keepers. But PG once again leaves so much to be desired. Payton is probably the safest bet right now, and maybe he can take a legit step forward. But he can't shoot and seems like a poor long-term fit alongside Barrett, since he's going to be a playmaker. Dennis Smith has talent, sure, and he may have some big breakout games here and there. But he feels more like a long-term 6th man type in the Present-day D Rose mold. Frank looked good guarding Young and has a future in the league as a backup, defensive stopper. But what's the long-term answer at PG? None of these guys can shoot. Hope for Payton or Smith to break out? Next year's draft has some options i guess. The PG market in free agency doesn't look great the next couple of years. We could go after VanVleet in the offseason, who's fit is excellent next to Barrett, but not sure if overpaying him is the answer. Hopefully the front office can figure this out. It's been going on way too long.I literally was about to start a thread on the this same topic..
To make matters worse, Fiz has basically given just about everyone the green light to bring the ball up court in his positionless system. I saw knox, rj, dsj, frank, Morris, randle, ellington all given the opportunity,and none of them look fluid.
I think we had like 2 fast breaks the entire game and scored 96 points, that is absolutely ridiculous, go look at the scoreboard from all the games last night, almost every team that won scored 120 or more, and no one scored less than 110, except GSW who rested everybody who rested curry.The funny thing is they all keep saying they are not worry about the offense, but that looks worse than the defense, all we have is Pick and roll and post play, that's 90's style basketball.
I could give DSJ a pass cause he hasn't play in a game since march, but the rest of our guards can not shoot at all, and our bigs shoot better from the perimeter, thats crazy.
How do you pair so many bad shooters in your back court..WTH
I think Barrett will be a good playmaker once he gets his NBA footing. He's good in the open floor and will improve his decision making as the year goes. It's all about finding someone who pairs well with him now.
to say you don't need a pg that can score in this day and age is crazy, because 9 out 10 times the opposing team will have one. That opposing PG will basically be free to roam on defense because his opponent is shooting 30%.
You saw that first hand last night with trey young barely playing any Defense at all, and frank and DSJ combing for 6 points on 25% shooting in a combine 42 minutes, and only 2 FT. Trey had 10 FTA
Even when RJ was running point, him and the team rarely took advantage of the mis match.
My question is, How are we going to get easy baskets when the entire team is walking the ball up court even on miss shots? You just can't play like that and expect to win
I think you are confusing the PG position with other positions. The opposing team will not be free to roam on defense. Why? Because it's the PG. He will have the ball for the most part of the half court set. If his defender roams freely then he is not doing a very good job. Now if you are saying they will sag off him when he deliver an entry pass to the post then maybe but that has not happened because why? Frank after he delivers the entry pass clears out and takes his defender with him. Basketball 101.
Walking the ball up? Dude. Frank is one of the better players in recognizing when to pass ahead. His head is always up. When he sees a teammate ahead of him in transition he always passes ahead. Again, Basketball 101. You want him to dribble all the way and make some crazy highlight type play? Man, that is not his game. Frank is a game manager on offense. He looks at who is hot and/or who has a mismatch and gets them the ball.
You are so infatuated with one-on-one basketball that blinds you to the fact that PGs are suppose the direct and set up his team to get the other 4 players involved.
Elfrid is has reached his ceiling. He is a backup PG right now. Nothing wrong with that. Teams need those type of players.
DSJr right now is not healthy and anybody can see that. Unfortunately, his game is all about athleticism. He is not a very smart basketball player. His defense is horrible. Right now, he needs to get healthy. I don't know if he will ever be healthy.
If Fizdale doesn't start Frank then he is stupid. Frank's defense and intangibles is just too good to overlook.
I mean if I am a player then I would love to play with him as my PG. Dude is a very willing and capable passer. His passes are also very accurate. He gives you the ball where you can actually do something with it.
Are you crazy, or just a homer..Frank walks the ball up and hands it off to a player and disappears..how many double digit assist has he had in 2 yr..one my friend..he does have intangibles, but shooting bricks is a major problem
If a passed the ball as well as you say he does, and set guys up as good as you say he does, there would be no need to keep bringing in PG after pg and experimenting with PF and sf playing point..
Payton notched a triple-double in his first start for the Pelicans, and led the team to a 4-0 record before an ankle sprain caused him to miss nine games.Elfrid reach his ceiling???? what???? at the age of 24/25..lol..the only reason he's not with the Pels was because of the AD trade that brought in Lonzo, and they have Holiday, not to mention the $$$ we gave him..
Your Down on DSJ (14pg and 5 asst in 2 yrs), and high on frank (5pts and 3 asst in 2 yrs) both have major, major flaws on one side of the ball... your playing favorites..please be honest
Not down on DSJr. He is hurt right now. He needs to get healthy. His game is about his exceptional athleticism. Without it he is not a very good player.
I said something bad about Elfrid? I said he is a very good rotational player. Something wrong with that? He is like Jarrett Jack without the perimeter shot.
Oh, I am definitely a homer. I love the Knicks. Crazy? Maybe. My wife tells me that sometimes.
Unless you think a fast break should be a one man fast break then you got me. You put players that run and you will get your pace. Trier loves to leak and run and Frank always found him but for some reason he is not playing right now. Same with Dotson, dude would run and Frank would always pass ahead. Right now Randle, Morris and RJ is not doing that. This is on Fiz. Gotta know your personnel.
In regards with why they keep bringing in new PGs or asking forwards to be point forwards? I don't know. You have to ask Fizdale.
GustavBahler wrote:NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
The best PGs in the league have screens set for them. Shouldnt even be a debate about wether or not Smith jr. should have screens set for him as well. Unless the plan is to force him to try to do too much,
Has said in interviews repeatedly that he is tired of hearing what a ball stopper he is. He's sharing the rock. His teammates should set screens so he doesnt have to get dribble happy. Believe Smith jr's footwork is good enough to handle using screens.
Too early to tell if Smith jr. is hurt IMO, believe we will have a better idea tonight.
I agree that they should have screens set for him. I just don't think he can physically do it right now. I mean they are setting screens for Ellington.
NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
The best PGs in the league have screens set for them. Shouldnt even be a debate about wether or not Smith jr. should have screens set for him as well. Unless the plan is to force him to try to do too much,
Has said in interviews repeatedly that he is tired of hearing what a ball stopper he is. He's sharing the rock. His teammates should set screens so he doesnt have to get dribble happy. Believe Smith jr's footwork is good enough to handle using screens.
Too early to tell if Smith jr. is hurt IMO, believe we will have a better idea tonight.
I agree that they should have screens set for him. I just don't think he can physically do it right now. I mean they are setting screens for Ellington.
Got it. Hard for me to judge on DSJ's health because he didnt have many opportunities to use his athleticism. Teammates can always come to him, to set a screen, close the distance.
Like you said, DSJr was the only PG who didnt have screens set for him. Morris looked him off on the very first play. Hope to see him more willing to set screens tonite.
GustavBahler wrote:NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
The best PGs in the league have screens set for them. Shouldnt even be a debate about wether or not Smith jr. should have screens set for him as well. Unless the plan is to force him to try to do too much,
Has said in interviews repeatedly that he is tired of hearing what a ball stopper he is. He's sharing the rock. His teammates should set screens so he doesnt have to get dribble happy. Believe Smith jr's footwork is good enough to handle using screens.
Too early to tell if Smith jr. is hurt IMO, believe we will have a better idea tonight.
I agree that they should have screens set for him. I just don't think he can physically do it right now. I mean they are setting screens for Ellington.
Got it. Hard for me to judge on DSJ's health because he didnt have many opportunities to use his athleticism. Teammates can always come to him, to set a screen, close the distance.
Like you said, DSJr was the only PG who didnt have screens set for him. Morris looked him off on the very first play. Hope to see him more willing to set screens tonite.
Good call on the lack of pick n rolls involving DSJ. Every team in the league runs a healthy dose of Pick and Rolls, so it was curious that none were run with a guard who plays downhill. Also, Ellington is a shooter, so having pin-down screens set for him makes sense and can't be compared to a pick.
Uptown wrote:GustavBahler wrote:NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
The best PGs in the league have screens set for them. Shouldnt even be a debate about wether or not Smith jr. should have screens set for him as well. Unless the plan is to force him to try to do too much,
Has said in interviews repeatedly that he is tired of hearing what a ball stopper he is. He's sharing the rock. His teammates should set screens so he doesnt have to get dribble happy. Believe Smith jr's footwork is good enough to handle using screens.
Too early to tell if Smith jr. is hurt IMO, believe we will have a better idea tonight.
I agree that they should have screens set for him. I just don't think he can physically do it right now. I mean they are setting screens for Ellington.
Got it. Hard for me to judge on DSJ's health because he didnt have many opportunities to use his athleticism. Teammates can always come to him, to set a screen, close the distance.
Like you said, DSJr was the only PG who didnt have screens set for him. Morris looked him off on the very first play. Hope to see him more willing to set screens tonite.
Good call on the lack of pick n rolls involving DSJ. Every team in the league runs a healthy dose of Pick and Rolls, so it was curious that none were run with a guard who plays downhill. Also, Ellington is a shooter, so having pin-down screens set for him makes sense and can't be compared to a pick.
It's only been a couple of games but Randle and Morris doesn't seem to be willing PnR players. They look like they came from the same school as Melo. Post or Iso only. Mitch and Taj are the only bigs I see setting picks. Kornet would be nice right now.
knicks1248 wrote:NYKBocker wrote:knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:Knixkik wrote:How is that not Frank? As bad as Frank's offense has been if he starts he's got 3 scorers next to him in Morris/Randle/RJ. We dont need a scoring PG in that line up. We need a ball handler who sets guys up and plays D.knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:I like what we have everywhere else right now. Mitch and Bobby at Center, Randle at PF, Morris and Knox at SF, and Barrett at SG. All can be keepers. But PG once again leaves so much to be desired. Payton is probably the safest bet right now, and maybe he can take a legit step forward. But he can't shoot and seems like a poor long-term fit alongside Barrett, since he's going to be a playmaker. Dennis Smith has talent, sure, and he may have some big breakout games here and there. But he feels more like a long-term 6th man type in the Present-day D Rose mold. Frank looked good guarding Young and has a future in the league as a backup, defensive stopper. But what's the long-term answer at PG? None of these guys can shoot. Hope for Payton or Smith to break out? Next year's draft has some options i guess. The PG market in free agency doesn't look great the next couple of years. We could go after VanVleet in the offseason, who's fit is excellent next to Barrett, but not sure if overpaying him is the answer. Hopefully the front office can figure this out. It's been going on way too long.I literally was about to start a thread on the this same topic..
To make matters worse, Fiz has basically given just about everyone the green light to bring the ball up court in his positionless system. I saw knox, rj, dsj, frank, Morris, randle, ellington all given the opportunity,and none of them look fluid.
I think we had like 2 fast breaks the entire game and scored 96 points, that is absolutely ridiculous, go look at the scoreboard from all the games last night, almost every team that won scored 120 or more, and no one scored less than 110, except GSW who rested everybody who rested curry.The funny thing is they all keep saying they are not worry about the offense, but that looks worse than the defense, all we have is Pick and roll and post play, that's 90's style basketball.
I could give DSJ a pass cause he hasn't play in a game since march, but the rest of our guards can not shoot at all, and our bigs shoot better from the perimeter, thats crazy.
How do you pair so many bad shooters in your back court..WTH
I think Barrett will be a good playmaker once he gets his NBA footing. He's good in the open floor and will improve his decision making as the year goes. It's all about finding someone who pairs well with him now.
to say you don't need a pg that can score in this day and age is crazy, because 9 out 10 times the opposing team will have one. That opposing PG will basically be free to roam on defense because his opponent is shooting 30%.
You saw that first hand last night with trey young barely playing any Defense at all, and frank and DSJ combing for 6 points on 25% shooting in a combine 42 minutes, and only 2 FT. Trey had 10 FTA
Even when RJ was running point, him and the team rarely took advantage of the mis match.
My question is, How are we going to get easy baskets when the entire team is walking the ball up court even on miss shots? You just can't play like that and expect to win
I think you are confusing the PG position with other positions. The opposing team will not be free to roam on defense. Why? Because it's the PG. He will have the ball for the most part of the half court set. If his defender roams freely then he is not doing a very good job. Now if you are saying they will sag off him when he deliver an entry pass to the post then maybe but that has not happened because why? Frank after he delivers the entry pass clears out and takes his defender with him. Basketball 101.
Walking the ball up? Dude. Frank is one of the better players in recognizing when to pass ahead. His head is always up. When he sees a teammate ahead of him in transition he always passes ahead. Again, Basketball 101. You want him to dribble all the way and make some crazy highlight type play? Man, that is not his game. Frank is a game manager on offense. He looks at who is hot and/or who has a mismatch and gets them the ball.
You are so infatuated with one-on-one basketball that blinds you to the fact that PGs are suppose the direct and set up his team to get the other 4 players involved.
Elfrid is has reached his ceiling. He is a backup PG right now. Nothing wrong with that. Teams need those type of players.
DSJr right now is not healthy and anybody can see that. Unfortunately, his game is all about athleticism. He is not a very smart basketball player. His defense is horrible. Right now, he needs to get healthy. I don't know if he will ever be healthy.
If Fizdale doesn't start Frank then he is stupid. Frank's defense and intangibles is just too good to overlook.
I mean if I am a player then I would love to play with him as my PG. Dude is a very willing and capable passer. His passes are also very accurate. He gives you the ball where you can actually do something with it.
Are you crazy, or just a homer..Frank walks the ball up and hands it off to a player and disappears..how many double digit assist has he had in 2 yr..one my friend..he does have intangibles, but shooting bricks is a major problem
If a passed the ball as well as you say he does, and set guys up as good as you say he does, there would be no need to keep bringing in PG after pg and experimenting with PF and sf playing point..
Payton notched a triple-double in his first start for the Pelicans, and led the team to a 4-0 record before an ankle sprain caused him to miss nine games.Elfrid reach his ceiling???? what???? at the age of 24/25..lol..the only reason he's not with the Pels was because of the AD trade that brought in Lonzo, and they have Holiday, not to mention the $$$ we gave him..
Your Down on DSJ (14pg and 5 asst in 2 yrs), and high on frank (5pts and 3 asst in 2 yrs) both have major, major flaws on one side of the ball... your playing favorites..please be honest
I definitely think Payton can reach another level. He displayed it a little last year but had half the season robbed by injury. He was a nice fit next to Holiday, so maybe he can do the same with Barrett. Seems to do a lot of little things and obviously fill the stat sheet. I'm hoping he can improve.
HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:I am a Frank guy. He defends great and he knows how to be a PG. His shooting MUST improve. The thing with Frank is that he has good form and his shots are usually hitting the front of the rim when he misses. IN practice vidoes he hits all his shots, so I am wondering if it is just a mental thing with him in games? Confidence? maybe h needs a sports psychologist?Of the 3 players, he is the most complete. None of them shoot well enough to give an advantage to one. DSjr can get ot the basket a LITTLE better but the rest go to Frank. Payton has shown to be a decent guy off the bench. Many truple doubles in his resume, so he can be effective. Always a slow starter if I recall.
I would look to move DSjr for a proven shooter or a future draft pick.
The Knicks do not have enough pure shooters on the team.
IMO, Trier and DSJ are redundant and not in a good way. The Knicks should keep one or the other. Relegating either to the towel section of the bench is simply not cost-effective nor good for their careers.
Unless Fizdale is delusional about his commitment to defense then Frankie and Payton have got to be your PGs with whoever is left being the third option when scoring at any cost is necessary.
DSJ has simply not impressed me and, quite frankly, the Mavs wanted him to succeed. How he managed not only to F that up but to also turn himself into a league-wide undesirable trade asset remains a mystery. I'd love to be wrong about this guy but I get red flags popping up everywhere whenever I see his progress.
Trier is another player who I don't think fits well. He's a feelgood story for sure and given a free reign to ISO will get those stat sheets filled. I just don't see how that works on this team assuming we're both playing to win and trying to develop a winning culture. And this by no means is a slam of Trier who likely is a fit in the right system.
Maybe Atlanta would send us VC for one of them.
Disagree with a couple things. First, Dennis getting sent out of Dallas was more about a guy named Luka than him F'ing things up. Unless one thinks 15/5 for first year is f'ing things up? Then what do you think Franks first 2 years would be called?
Secondly Trier is not close to what Smith brings to the team. Last I checked Smith averaged almost 3 times the amount of assists. And thats including many bricks from guys he set up for open threes last year.
Again, domt think Frank shoupd be given up on but also feel Smith should be given a shot before we cast him off. And I dont think that means a half year and one pre season game.
All fair responses. Let me clarify though.
DSJ did put up statistically significant numbers. And there was the Luka phenomenon. But once it was obvious DSJ wasn't reclaiming the territory largely because the rest of the team played better as well with Luka, DSJ became untradeable except when he was wrapped up in lottery picks for the Knicks.
So there's that.
The back issue is another. And the need for the ball is yet another [applies to Trier as well].
IMO, I would rather see a tag team of Frankie/Payton/Barrett than any combination of DSJ/Trier for the majority of minutes. And my reasoning is that both Frankie and Payton will give the other four players on the floor the chance to develop a healthy offensive game.
If we have the PG contending for shots I think that lessens the chance of building good chemistry. If we need more firepower, move Barrett over to the point and add Trier, Dotson, Ellington, or whoever. Simple.
The other four on the floor will benefit by not wasting time setting up offensive opportunities for point hungry PGs.
That said, assuming DSJ's back is not an issue - sign him. I think the cap space issue is nonsense. But keep an eye out for deals that give the third string an opportunity out to get their minutes elsewhere.
NYKBocker wrote:GustavBahler wrote:As I mentioned in the game thread, Young had his teammates setting one screen after another for him. Often defenders were running into multiple screeners in one trip down the court. Cant recall a single screen being set for Smith jr. Didnt see any plays run for him as well. Young and DSJr are two of the fastest PGs in the league. Smith jr should expect the same from his teammates. All he needs is a little daylight to make something happen, like Trae.Smith could have just gone one on five for most of the game, but he didnt. Spent almost all of it setting up other teammates. Fizdale needs to get that sorted out, more done to help Smith jr get going. Like setting screens.
I don't think DSJr is healthy. I don't think he can run all over the place looking for screens and be effective. His foot work is also very suspect.
I agree. Whatever the issue was, DSJ looked like a hot mess in that Atlanta game and it had nothing to do with the rust, IMO.
Nalod wrote:Nalod simply cannot close the book on Fiz until he can get a line up in place for 20 games. Seriously.
I have no problem with another season of development. Not tanking, but placing a priority on growing the yoot.
Believe Knox and RJ get minutes not based on production but on progress.
I go with Payton to start, Frank off the bench.
I start RJ. Smith backs him up. with Ellington and eventually bullock I really don’t know what to do with Trier and Dotson.
If I’m wrong on frank then we don’t extend him and I assume trade him.
Vs Atlanta I did not see the other 4 guys hit any shots. I saw frank make plays that kept us in the game. Would have been sweet if he hit that 3 pointer!!! He did not.
Him and Smith are either prospects as seen by the Staff or not. Nobody here knows. I have not seen DSjr do his thing.Knicks have surplus talent. That’s bizarre. The young guys are too young, the new guys are good role players.
I like Morris. I like the idea of him. I just prefer Knox’ upside. I want my cake and get to 30 wins.Ian Bagly writes a byline that some players are not happy with role. Not a mention who. I’d guess its Trier and perhaps Randle as he wants more touches?
IF a team is not above .500 its not a happy team. I don’t see much fun anytime soon.
I really don’t know what this team is doing with its roster. Perhaps that becomes clearer soon. I all stupidly angry proclaiming Fiz or FO gets fired. Its an open ended questions.
I don't think the FO has the rope for another development year that involves massive losses. I'd be shocked if that was in the cards. These vets weren't brought in for participation trophies.
fwk00 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:I am a Frank guy. He defends great and he knows how to be a PG. His shooting MUST improve. The thing with Frank is that he has good form and his shots are usually hitting the front of the rim when he misses. IN practice vidoes he hits all his shots, so I am wondering if it is just a mental thing with him in games? Confidence? maybe h needs a sports psychologist?Of the 3 players, he is the most complete. None of them shoot well enough to give an advantage to one. DSjr can get ot the basket a LITTLE better but the rest go to Frank. Payton has shown to be a decent guy off the bench. Many truple doubles in his resume, so he can be effective. Always a slow starter if I recall.
I would look to move DSjr for a proven shooter or a future draft pick.
The Knicks do not have enough pure shooters on the team.
IMO, Trier and DSJ are redundant and not in a good way. The Knicks should keep one or the other. Relegating either to the towel section of the bench is simply not cost-effective nor good for their careers.
Unless Fizdale is delusional about his commitment to defense then Frankie and Payton have got to be your PGs with whoever is left being the third option when scoring at any cost is necessary.
DSJ has simply not impressed me and, quite frankly, the Mavs wanted him to succeed. How he managed not only to F that up but to also turn himself into a league-wide undesirable trade asset remains a mystery. I'd love to be wrong about this guy but I get red flags popping up everywhere whenever I see his progress.
Trier is another player who I don't think fits well. He's a feelgood story for sure and given a free reign to ISO will get those stat sheets filled. I just don't see how that works on this team assuming we're both playing to win and trying to develop a winning culture. And this by no means is a slam of Trier who likely is a fit in the right system.
Maybe Atlanta would send us VC for one of them.
Disagree with a couple things. First, Dennis getting sent out of Dallas was more about a guy named Luka than him F'ing things up. Unless one thinks 15/5 for first year is f'ing things up? Then what do you think Franks first 2 years would be called?
Secondly Trier is not close to what Smith brings to the team. Last I checked Smith averaged almost 3 times the amount of assists. And thats including many bricks from guys he set up for open threes last year.
Again, domt think Frank shoupd be given up on but also feel Smith should be given a shot before we cast him off. And I dont think that means a half year and one pre season game.
All fair responses. Let me clarify though.
DSJ did put up statistically significant numbers. And there was the Luka phenomenon. But once it was obvious DSJ wasn't reclaiming the territory largely because the rest of the team played better as well with Luka, DSJ became untradeable except when he was wrapped up in lottery picks for the Knicks.
So there's that.
The back issue is another. And the need for the ball is yet another [applies to Trier as well].
IMO, I would rather see a tag team of Frankie/Payton/Barrett than any combination of DSJ/Trier for the majority of minutes. And my reasoning is that both Frankie and Payton will give the other four players on the floor the chance to develop a healthy offensive game.
If we have the PG contending for shots I think that lessens the chance of building good chemistry. If we need more firepower, move Barrett over to the point and add Trier, Dotson, Ellington, or whoever. Simple.
The other four on the floor will benefit by not wasting time setting up offensive opportunities for point hungry PGs.
That said, assuming DSJ's back is not an issue - sign him. I think the cap space issue is nonsense. But keep an eye out for deals that give the third string an opportunity out to get their minutes elsewhere.
We will agree to disagree in why Smith was dealt. Fact is, only one primary ball handler is needed on the stating 5. Luka is exceptional and is a franchise player. Do not think Smith would have been dealt if the Mavs did not end up getting Luka. There is also another important variable that we have not discuss. That is KP. Think Cuban really saw a chance at adding another franchise proven player. Which made it a lot easier to part with Smith.
In terms of getting other shots. We would have to then rank Payton as one. Smith as two and Frank last. That is if we look at what each player averaged in assists the last two years.
Still keep going back to my more concerning point. That is, what type of offensive scheme are we trying to develop? A slower half court game where we want our PG to bring the ball over slowly and set up for post play? That, I think, should determine which one of those 3 get the most playing time.
HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:fwk00 wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:I am a Frank guy. He defends great and he knows how to be a PG. His shooting MUST improve. The thing with Frank is that he has good form and his shots are usually hitting the front of the rim when he misses. IN practice vidoes he hits all his shots, so I am wondering if it is just a mental thing with him in games? Confidence? maybe h needs a sports psychologist?Of the 3 players, he is the most complete. None of them shoot well enough to give an advantage to one. DSjr can get ot the basket a LITTLE better but the rest go to Frank. Payton has shown to be a decent guy off the bench. Many truple doubles in his resume, so he can be effective. Always a slow starter if I recall.
I would look to move DSjr for a proven shooter or a future draft pick.
The Knicks do not have enough pure shooters on the team.
IMO, Trier and DSJ are redundant and not in a good way. The Knicks should keep one or the other. Relegating either to the towel section of the bench is simply not cost-effective nor good for their careers.
Unless Fizdale is delusional about his commitment to defense then Frankie and Payton have got to be your PGs with whoever is left being the third option when scoring at any cost is necessary.
DSJ has simply not impressed me and, quite frankly, the Mavs wanted him to succeed. How he managed not only to F that up but to also turn himself into a league-wide undesirable trade asset remains a mystery. I'd love to be wrong about this guy but I get red flags popping up everywhere whenever I see his progress.
Trier is another player who I don't think fits well. He's a feelgood story for sure and given a free reign to ISO will get those stat sheets filled. I just don't see how that works on this team assuming we're both playing to win and trying to develop a winning culture. And this by no means is a slam of Trier who likely is a fit in the right system.
Maybe Atlanta would send us VC for one of them.
Disagree with a couple things. First, Dennis getting sent out of Dallas was more about a guy named Luka than him F'ing things up. Unless one thinks 15/5 for first year is f'ing things up? Then what do you think Franks first 2 years would be called?
Secondly Trier is not close to what Smith brings to the team. Last I checked Smith averaged almost 3 times the amount of assists. And thats including many bricks from guys he set up for open threes last year.
Again, domt think Frank shoupd be given up on but also feel Smith should be given a shot before we cast him off. And I dont think that means a half year and one pre season game.
All fair responses. Let me clarify though.
DSJ did put up statistically significant numbers. And there was the Luka phenomenon. But once it was obvious DSJ wasn't reclaiming the territory largely because the rest of the team played better as well with Luka, DSJ became untradeable except when he was wrapped up in lottery picks for the Knicks.
So there's that.
The back issue is another. And the need for the ball is yet another [applies to Trier as well].
IMO, I would rather see a tag team of Frankie/Payton/Barrett than any combination of DSJ/Trier for the majority of minutes. And my reasoning is that both Frankie and Payton will give the other four players on the floor the chance to develop a healthy offensive game.
If we have the PG contending for shots I think that lessens the chance of building good chemistry. If we need more firepower, move Barrett over to the point and add Trier, Dotson, Ellington, or whoever. Simple.
The other four on the floor will benefit by not wasting time setting up offensive opportunities for point hungry PGs.
That said, assuming DSJ's back is not an issue - sign him. I think the cap space issue is nonsense. But keep an eye out for deals that give the third string an opportunity out to get their minutes elsewhere.
We will agree to disagree in why Smith was dealt. Fact is, only one primary ball handler is needed on the stating 5. Luka is exceptional and is a franchise player. Do not think Smith would have been dealt if the Mavs did not end up getting Luka. There is also another important variable that we have not discuss. That is KP. Think Cuban really saw a chance at adding another franchise proven player. Which made it a lot easier to part with Smith.
In terms of getting other shots. We would have to then rank Payton as one. Smith as two and Frank last. That is if we look at what each player averaged in assists the last two years.
Still keep going back to my more concerning point. That is, what type of offensive scheme are we trying to develop? A slower half court game where we want our PG to bring the ball over slowly and set up for post play? That, I think, should determine which one of those 3 get the most playing time.
Yes. Constraining ourselves to a long term, dedicated strategy is essential. The worst that can happen is constant second-guessing - a cycle that the guy on the bench is a better option no matter who starts. This is a feeding frenzy trigger for Asshola and Vermin.
One Mantra is to fail as fast as possible. The other is to grind through it. IMO, play the players who win ever when they fail statistically as individuals - moneyball.
NBA TV discussing Knicks NOW.
Also see promise in a Payton/Trier backcourt. Hope Fizdale gives that backcourt a chance to work as well.
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