Knicks · Revisiting Fred VanVleet (page 1)

I had a thread up awhile back on him and asked what people thought of him for Brogdon-type money. Looking back at that, it seems like that may have been an undersell on his abilities. VanVleet is the second best player on what is still possibly a contender. He's averaging 19 points, 8 assists and 4 rebounds a game and is shooting 40% from 3pt. He plays great defense and is only 25 years old. Somehow is an unrestricted free agent this summer. He has only gotten better with Lowry out and has taken over as the lead guard. I would imagine Toronto is planning on building around Siakam and VanVleet, so it may be irrelevant, so the question would be, is he worth overpaying to be our franchise PG? If we find that guy in the draft, it's a moot point. But if the best player at our draft slot is determined to be Edwards or Maxey for example, then we will need to address the PG yet again.

A line-up of
C Robinson
PF Randle
SF Barrett
SG Edwards or Maxey
PG VanVleet

with Knox, Ntilikina, Dotson, Gibson, and Brazdeikis off the bench is at least a step in the right direction.

The assumption is we drop some of the veteran weight on the roster and rebuild around the youth. Keeping someone like Gibson makes sense though. But i'm moving on from Portis, Payton, and Ellington at the very least. Morris can be a keeper, but i think we will ultimately need to chose between Morris and Randle at the PF position. We need to get faster, more athletic, and become a better outside shooting team.

Fred is a fine player. Kyle lowrey was too, and he got better as his team around him did. I think Fred might be similar. That might be true with 75% of the league. He would be our best guard if we moved him today. Im not here to promote or diss our current PG situation but I do want to see how this season plays out, what draft opportunities occur and really give Dennis the benefit of the doubt. Its a big doubt. When your 4-15 little looks good or projects as such.
Its the first week in December, we talking July.

Would I trade for him? Ujiri would kill us. Frank and a future first? Then watch Frank emerge on a better team? Masai, Morey or Presti calls, you hang up the phone!!!!

Nalod wrote:Fred is a fine player. Kyle lowrey was too, and he got better as his team around him did. I think Fred might be similar. That might be true with 75% of the league. He would be our best guard if we moved him today. Im not here to promote or diss our current PG situation but I do want to see how this season plays out, what draft opportunities occur and really give Dennis the benefit of the doubt. Its a big doubt. When your 4-15 little looks good or projects as such.
Its the first week in December, we talking July.

Would I trade for him? Ujiri would kill us. Frank and a future first? Then watch Frank emerge on a better team? Masai, Morey or Presti calls, you hang up the phone!!!!

It wouldn’t be a trade. We don’t have enough without moving Barrett. It would only be signing him into cap space.

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fred is a fine player. Kyle lowrey was too, and he got better as his team around him did. I think Fred might be similar. That might be true with 75% of the league. He would be our best guard if we moved him today. Im not here to promote or diss our current PG situation but I do want to see how this season plays out, what draft opportunities occur and really give Dennis the benefit of the doubt. Its a big doubt. When your 4-15 little looks good or projects as such.
Its the first week in December, we talking July.

Would I trade for him? Ujiri would kill us. Frank and a future first? Then watch Frank emerge on a better team? Masai, Morey or Presti calls, you hang up the phone!!!!

It wouldn’t be a trade. We don’t have enough without moving Barrett. It would only be signing him into cap space.

If you value him, you trade for him. His trade value is not that high if he is bolting Raptors.
It was more rhetorical question.

Nalod wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fred is a fine player. Kyle lowrey was too, and he got better as his team around him did. I think Fred might be similar. That might be true with 75% of the league. He would be our best guard if we moved him today. Im not here to promote or diss our current PG situation but I do want to see how this season plays out, what draft opportunities occur and really give Dennis the benefit of the doubt. Its a big doubt. When your 4-15 little looks good or projects as such.
Its the first week in December, we talking July.

Would I trade for him? Ujiri would kill us. Frank and a future first? Then watch Frank emerge on a better team? Masai, Morey or Presti calls, you hang up the phone!!!!

It wouldn’t be a trade. We don’t have enough without moving Barrett. It would only be signing him into cap space.

If you value him, you trade for him. His trade value is not that high if he is bolting Raptors.
It was more rhetorical question.

Why would your trade for someone who is a free agent ? I’d rather overpay with money than send any value to the other team.

IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:Fred is a fine player. Kyle lowrey was too, and he got better as his team around him did. I think Fred might be similar. That might be true with 75% of the league. He would be our best guard if we moved him today. Im not here to promote or diss our current PG situation but I do want to see how this season plays out, what draft opportunities occur and really give Dennis the benefit of the doubt. Its a big doubt. When your 4-15 little looks good or projects as such.
Its the first week in December, we talking July.

Would I trade for him? Ujiri would kill us. Frank and a future first? Then watch Frank emerge on a better team? Masai, Morey or Presti calls, you hang up the phone!!!!

It wouldn’t be a trade. We don’t have enough without moving Barrett. It would only be signing him into cap space.

If you value him, you trade for him. His trade value is not that high if he is bolting Raptors.
It was more rhetorical question.

Why would your trade for someone who is a free agent ? I’d rather overpay with money than send any value to the other team.

Hypothetically speaking, bird rights matter, Fred not resigning with Raptors, Raptors not interested in resigning him and something is better than nothing. If Knicks would know what his price would be before a trade and if he is interested in staying. In fact, Knicks might be his preferred destination.

Hypothetically speaking that his. Maybe Toronto looks to rebuild on strength. I don't know where they are going with Lowrey and Gasol on the north side of 30. Im impressed with their season thus far.

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

He should be on grate team to be effective as he is.
We are not ready for this type. Waste from both sides.
Of course if we can get him for just money or swith for redundant vets why not.

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Childs was playing well with the Nets, but was unable to replicate that success on the Knicks, got a big payday. Concerned that Vanleet might not be able to have the same success with a new team. That we will be paying for a player who looks good in a system thats fully baked. Not a rebuilding team.

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Chris Childs stats declined when he came to Knicks from Nets. Im not sure I'd use this anlogy as knicks were better than Nets team he came from.

I think the point which I might agree with is take a good role player on a good team and have him be one of the better players on a lesser team.
Howard Eisley? Shannon Anderson?

Nalod wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Chris Childs stats declined when he came to Knicks from Nets. Im not sure I'd use this anlogy as knicks were better than Nets team he came from.

I think the point which I might agree with is take a good role player on a good team and have him be one of the better players on a lesser team.
Howard Eisley? Shannon Anderson?

But VanVleet is the second best player on the raptors. Still don’t see how that compares to these names. The guys you mentioned were never the second best player on a good team.

max him and dont look back

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Chris Childs stats declined when he came to Knicks from Nets. Im not sure I'd use this anlogy as knicks were better than Nets team he came from.

I think the point which I might agree with is take a good role player on a good team and have him be one of the better players on a lesser team.
Howard Eisley? Shannon Anderson?

But VanVleet is the second best player on the raptors. Still don’t see how that compares to these names. The guys you mentioned were never the second best player on a good team.

Ibaka, Lowey and Gasol might be past their prime, but take them out?

Nalod wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Chris Childs stats declined when he came to Knicks from Nets. Im not sure I'd use this anlogy as knicks were better than Nets team he came from.

I think the point which I might agree with is take a good role player on a good team and have him be one of the better players on a lesser team.
Howard Eisley? Shannon Anderson?

But VanVleet is the second best player on the raptors. Still don’t see how that compares to these names. The guys you mentioned were never the second best player on a good team.

Ibaka, Lowey and Gasol might be past their prime, but take them out?

Well lowrys been hurt all year. VanVleet has been better without him. He might be an allstar this year.

Complete 180 on him. I think I just assumed he would be similar to Jeremy Lin.. a guy who kinda came out of nowhere and put together a decent run. Nah, I think he can ball, he's young, and he knows how to win. I think the latter is usually overrated or overvalued but we need someone with a fucking clue desperately

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Childs was playing well with the Nets, but was unable to replicate that success on the Knicks, got a big payday. Concerned that Vanleet might not be able to have the same success with a new team. That we will be paying for a player who looks good in a system thats fully baked. Not a rebuilding team.

From what I remember, Childs had one good stretch after Kenny A got injured. And he was 28 at the time. I remember wanting us to Sam Cassel at the time, but I think the front office was worried Sam was to offensive minded. The irony was that they ended up benching Childs for Ward because he was too offensive minded. I'd have concerns about signing Fred too, but I had those same concerns about Brogdan...we see how Brogdan is playing now. I can't call it. Fred could be the product of a system he's had years to get understand his fit in the system.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Childs was playing well with the Nets, but was unable to replicate that success on the Knicks, got a big payday. Concerned that Vanleet might not be able to have the same success with a new team. That we will be paying for a player who looks good in a system thats fully baked. Not a rebuilding team.

From what I remember, Childs had one good stretch after Kenny A got injured. And he was 28 at the time. I remember wanting us to Sam Cassel at the time, but I think the front office was worried Sam was to offensive minded. The irony was that they ended up benching Childs for Ward because he was too offensive minded. I'd have concerns about signing Fred too, but I had those same concerns about Brogdan...we see how Brogdan is playing now. I can't call it. Fred could be the product of a system he's had years to get understand his fit in the system.

Its about giving a good PG a cap busting contract, like he was an elite one. Dont want to max a PG out anyway. Believe in the last 25 years or so, only two teams have won a chip, with a PG taking up a large part of the cap. Cavs with Irving (and LeBron running the point) and Tony Parker in SA, with Pops coaching.

Looks like we'll be getting another high pick, would rather find a younger PG to grow with our recently drafted players.

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:IDK, would be a little concerned about overpaying for a player who might be the product of a good system. Kind of reminds me of Chris Childs. Good PG, but overpaid. Would rather try to find a PG in the draft, not to mention find out who will be coaching and what kind of system they will run.

I don’t know how a player producing at VanVleet’s level could remind you of Childs. He’s been the second best player on a great team.

Childs was playing well with the Nets, but was unable to replicate that success on the Knicks, got a big payday. Concerned that Vanleet might not be able to have the same success with a new team. That we will be paying for a player who looks good in a system thats fully baked. Not a rebuilding team.

From what I remember, Childs had one good stretch after Kenny A got injured. And he was 28 at the time. I remember wanting us to Sam Cassel at the time, but I think the front office was worried Sam was to offensive minded. The irony was that they ended up benching Childs for Ward because he was too offensive minded. I'd have concerns about signing Fred too, but I had those same concerns about Brogdan...we see how Brogdan is playing now. I can't call it. Fred could be the product of a system he's had years to get understand his fit in the system.

Its about giving a good PG a cap busting contract, like he was an elite one. Dont want to max a PG out anyway. Believe in the last 25 years or so, only two teams have won a chip, with a PG taking up a large part of the cap. Cavs with Irving (and LeBron running the point) and Tony Parker in SA, with Pops coaching.

Looks like we'll be getting another high pick, would rather find a younger PG to grow with our recently drafted players.

Yeah the draft comes first , so if we find our PG there then it’s a moot point. If the BPA is not a PG, then we are back in the same situation as this year. We don’t need a star PG, but we need someone who can hit shots and break down a defense and we don’t have that on our roster. Otherwise it will be the same thing, with the offense running through Randle regardless of our coach. You don’t need a star PG but you need a quality one. I’ll pay up for VanVleet because finding a 26 year old PG on the open market that can shoot, make plays and defend that has championship experience is rare and invaluable.

Imagine adding Edwards(assuming he makes immediate Mitchell/Doncic/Young impact) and Fred in one off season. Resign Morris, move Randle to center and you get:

Van Fleet
Edwards
RJ
Morris
Randle(I think we'll be solid enough defensively to take a hit on rim protection)

Frank
Trier/Bullock
Knox
Gibson
Robinson

Possible playoff contender if we get a new coach.

TPercy wrote:Imagine adding Edwards(assuming he makes immediate Mitchell/Doncic/Young impact) and Fred in one off season. Resign Morris, move Randle to center and you get:

Van Fleet
Edwards
RJ
Morris
Randle(I think we'll be solid enough defensively to take a hit on rim protection)

Frank
Trier/Bullock
Knox
Gibson
Robinson

Possible playoff contender if we get a new coach.

I think the Edwards/VanVleet combo is best case scenario. But I would start Mitch and bring Randle off the bench. Only start Randle if Morris isn’t brought back. Randle would still play plenty of minutes at center because I’m not bringing back Portis.