Knicks · It actually turns out the Knicks screwed themselves out of getting LeBron, here's how! (page 1)
Wonder if Jimmie will even bother to try to disavow any of this...
The Walsh hire is basically why we've been awful so long, in a nutshell. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executive that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different. The world is concerned with how things can be done better in the future, not with how they've been done in the past.
We had no ability to bring in three stars. Miami had Wade already. Chicago had good assets to move around.
We had little after clearing cap. Not sure we get melo via trade after but you get the picture.
NardDogNation wrote:The Knicks screwed themselves from the get-go with that Donnie Walsh hire. The game had clearly passed him by, with the Pacers having been on a steady, 4-season decline before Walsh got the Knicks gig. He then continued that trend of ineptitude with the Knicks, making one boneheaded decision/indecision after another with the only agenda being cap space in 2010. I seriously wonder what the strategy was: to their knees and beg for LeBron to join a depleted roster and then have him recruit a second star? I'm not surprised why he spurned that "tempting" offer.I think that's one of the major themes for why we've sucked for so long. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executives that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different.
Walsh was thrust on the knick by the league after Jimmy stood by Isiah in the aftermath of the awful seasons, trades and finally Anucha. HE resigned Isiah after anuhca. Walsh was seen at the time as reasonable.
Go back and look at the season before Lebron and look at what was happening. It was bad. Donnie was not welcome by Dolan. Dysfunction atop the knicks.
Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:The Knicks screwed themselves from the get-go with that Donnie Walsh hire. The game had clearly passed him by, with the Pacers having been on a steady, 4-season decline before Walsh got the Knicks gig. He then continued that trend of ineptitude with the Knicks, making one boneheaded decision/indecision after another with the only agenda being cap space in 2010. I seriously wonder what the strategy was: to their knees and beg for LeBron to join a depleted roster and then have him recruit a second star? I'm not surprised why he spurned that "tempting" offer.I think that's one of the major themes for why we've sucked for so long. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executives that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different.
Walsh was thrust on the knick by the league after Jimmy stood by Isiah in the aftermath of the awful seasons, trades and finally Anucha. HE resigned Isiah after anuhca. Walsh was seen at the time as reasonable.
Go back and look at the season before Lebron and look at what was happening. It was bad. Donnie was not welcome by Dolan. Dysfunction atop the knicks.
The league was pushing Jerry Colangelo, a close friend of Donald Stern. Dolan, ever-the-contrarian, went with Donnie as a compromise. It made no sense then and no sense now because I think it was widely understood that Colangelo was the better executive. Dude oversaw multiple rebuilds/retools with the Suns over the span of ~20 years, all of which had them with one of the highest winning percentages in pro sports. To be fair though, it seemed like Jerry was looking to transition out of basketball at that point and let his son- Bryan Colangelo- take the forefront. Bryan Colaneglo, by most accounts, is a fucking idiot, so we might not have fared any better with him if Jerry wasn't running the day-to-day. But I still thought Colangelo was the smarter hire given his resume and connection with elite players due to his stint with USA Basketball.
NardDogNation wrote:Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:The Knicks screwed themselves from the get-go with that Donnie Walsh hire. The game had clearly passed him by, with the Pacers having been on a steady, 4-season decline before Walsh got the Knicks gig. He then continued that trend of ineptitude with the Knicks, making one boneheaded decision/indecision after another with the only agenda being cap space in 2010. I seriously wonder what the strategy was: to their knees and beg for LeBron to join a depleted roster and then have him recruit a second star? I'm not surprised why he spurned that "tempting" offer.I think that's one of the major themes for why we've sucked for so long. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executives that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different.
Walsh was thrust on the knick by the league after Jimmy stood by Isiah in the aftermath of the awful seasons, trades and finally Anucha. HE resigned Isiah after anuhca. Walsh was seen at the time as reasonable.
Go back and look at the season before Lebron and look at what was happening. It was bad. Donnie was not welcome by Dolan. Dysfunction atop the knicks.The league was pushing Jerry Colangelo, a close friend of Donald Stern. Dolan, ever-the-contrarian, went with Donnie as a compromise. It made no sense then and no sense now because I think it was widely understood that Colangelo was the better executive. Dude oversaw multiple rebuilds/retools with the Suns over the span of ~20 years, all of which had them with one of the highest winning percentages in pro sports. To be fair though, it seemed like Jerry was looking to transition out of basketball at that point and let his son- Bryan Colangelo- take the forefront. Bryan Colaneglo, by most accounts, is a fucking idiot, so we might not have fared any better with him if Jerry wasn't running the day-to-day. But I still thought Colangelo was the smarter hire given his resume and connection with elite players due to his stint with USA Basketball.
Yes, COLANGELO would have faired better. My point was Donnie did not have much autonomy and Isiah was still in Dolan’s ear. In the blame game i dont hold Donnie accountable as i would others in same role.
Wade was in Riley's ear, and he was able to free up cap space to sign 3 max FA's! The Bulls were the dark horse, not the Knicks. Even if the Knicks had a 1% chance, they signed Amare who was damaged goods and someone who LeBron wasn't looking to team up with.
Allanfan20 wrote:SAS insists this report is wrong. I believe him in this instance. I don’t think LeBron ever considered NY.
Agree. After watching, certain aspects don’t really seem feasible. Don’t buy LBJ wanting Knicks.
Miami hardly ever has cap space or draft picks, but always seem to get who they want
Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:The Knicks screwed themselves from the get-go with that Donnie Walsh hire. The game had clearly passed him by, with the Pacers having been on a steady, 4-season decline before Walsh got the Knicks gig. He then continued that trend of ineptitude with the Knicks, making one boneheaded decision/indecision after another with the only agenda being cap space in 2010. I seriously wonder what the strategy was: to their knees and beg for LeBron to join a depleted roster and then have him recruit a second star? I'm not surprised why he spurned that "tempting" offer.I think that's one of the major themes for why we've sucked for so long. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executives that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different.
Walsh was thrust on the knick by the league after Jimmy stood by Isiah in the aftermath of the awful seasons, trades and finally Anucha. HE resigned Isiah after anuhca. Walsh was seen at the time as reasonable.
Go back and look at the season before Lebron and look at what was happening. It was bad. Donnie was not welcome by Dolan. Dysfunction atop the knicks.The league was pushing Jerry Colangelo, a close friend of Donald Stern. Dolan, ever-the-contrarian, went with Donnie as a compromise. It made no sense then and no sense now because I think it was widely understood that Colangelo was the better executive. Dude oversaw multiple rebuilds/retools with the Suns over the span of ~20 years, all of which had them with one of the highest winning percentages in pro sports. To be fair though, it seemed like Jerry was looking to transition out of basketball at that point and let his son- Bryan Colangelo- take the forefront. Bryan Colaneglo, by most accounts, is a fucking idiot, so we might not have fared any better with him if Jerry wasn't running the day-to-day. But I still thought Colangelo was the smarter hire given his resume and connection with elite players due to his stint with USA Basketball.
Yes, COLANGELO would have faired better. My point was Donnie did not have much autonomy and Isiah was still in Dolan’s ear. In the blame game i dont hold Donnie accountable as i would others in same role.
Donnie should've extended David Lee on a reasonable 7-8 mil contract when he got here in 2008. Then organically rebuild the team. Instead his only plan was 2010 cap space and he let DLEE price himself into a near All-Star caliber player soon to be free agent in the summer of 2010. We signed Amare in 2010 for more than twice what it would've taken to re-sign Lee in 2008. We all know what happened once we had Amare aka Star1. We HAD to get Star2.
With DLEE signed reasonably we would've been able to slow build and not falter down the Starpath. DLee, Chandler, Gallo would've been a fun team and if Melo wanted to join fine, if not fine. We would've been in a good position with draft picks not squandered.
EVERYTHING started with Walsh and his two years of cap clearing. It was unthinkable before him to even do such a thing.
Walsh also spurned Tom Thibadeaux who would've loved the job for the ill-fitting Mike D'antoni. We didn't have a D'antoni team and D'antoni couldn't adjust his style.
Donnie Walsh wasn't a bad dude. But he was the wrong guy. He started a snowball that future Knicks GMs turned into an avalanche.
I agree about MDA. I think the exptation was different as was te roster.
Nalod wrote:Amare signed with the cap space that could have been Lebron. Not both. Wade already in place. Big difference. Heat and Miami were best path for a chip at that moment.
You're right. My bad. Amare signed after LeBron made his announcement. Had to go back and double check the dates....With one max slot available, its even more the reason why LeBron never really considered us.
Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:The Knicks screwed themselves from the get-go with that Donnie Walsh hire. The game had clearly passed him by, with the Pacers having been on a steady, 4-season decline before Walsh got the Knicks gig. He then continued that trend of ineptitude with the Knicks, making one boneheaded decision/indecision after another with the only agenda being cap space in 2010. I seriously wonder what the strategy was: to their knees and beg for LeBron to join a depleted roster and then have him recruit a second star? I'm not surprised why he spurned that "tempting" offer.I think that's one of the major themes for why we've sucked for so long. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executives that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different.
Walsh was thrust on the knick by the league after Jimmy stood by Isiah in the aftermath of the awful seasons, trades and finally Anucha. HE resigned Isiah after anuhca. Walsh was seen at the time as reasonable.
Go back and look at the season before Lebron and look at what was happening. It was bad. Donnie was not welcome by Dolan. Dysfunction atop the knicks.The league was pushing Jerry Colangelo, a close friend of Donald Stern. Dolan, ever-the-contrarian, went with Donnie as a compromise. It made no sense then and no sense now because I think it was widely understood that Colangelo was the better executive. Dude oversaw multiple rebuilds/retools with the Suns over the span of ~20 years, all of which had them with one of the highest winning percentages in pro sports. To be fair though, it seemed like Jerry was looking to transition out of basketball at that point and let his son- Bryan Colangelo- take the forefront. Bryan Colaneglo, by most accounts, is a fucking idiot, so we might not have fared any better with him if Jerry wasn't running the day-to-day. But I still thought Colangelo was the smarter hire given his resume and connection with elite players due to his stint with USA Basketball.
Yes, COLANGELO would have faired better. My point was Donnie did not have much autonomy and Isiah was still in Dolan’s ear. In the blame game i dont hold Donnie accountable as i would others in same role.
The moves this franchise did not match the blueprint of Isiah Thomas. He had a reputation for hiring legacy coaches (i.e. Larry Brown and Lenny Wilkins) well beyond their prime. That was not Mike D'Antoni who, for all his faults, was considered a revolutionary back then. I also don't see Isiah being part of the braintrust that would spend a high lottery pick on an Italian ball player (Gallo) or a finesse big (Hill). The only time I've ever heard Isiah being involved was a last ditch effort to get the Knicks a second meeting with LeBron and input on whether to pull the trigger on the Melo deal. Beyond that, this was Walsh's disaster.
Uptown wrote:Knicks never had a shot at Lebron!! Lebron, Wade and Melo had been talking about teaming up since 2006 or 2007. LeBron and Wade signed similar deals that allowed them to be free agents at the same time in 2010. Melo wanted his money, so instead of signing a 3 yr deal, he singed for 5 yrs so he was out. Enter Bosh.Wade was in Riley's ear, and he was able to free up cap space to sign 3 max FA's! The Bulls were the dark horse, not the Knicks. Even if the Knicks had a 1% chance, they signed Amare who was damaged goods and someone who LeBron wasn't looking to team up with.
...LeBron, Wade and Bosh had discussions about teaming up but not with a specific franchise in mind; a fact being reaffirmed through Nick Fridell, Bill Simmons and others. Had the Knicks been run properly and had any vision, they could've had those 3 max spots freed up by that 2010 offseason.
The Bulls were no darkhorse because of the subtle hostility Rose and Noah had to LeBron/other stars and because they did not have 3 max spots to offer. I also think the Knicks had more appeal because it was a bigger stage but neutral ground; whereas the Heat were percieved to be Wade's franchise.
Allanfan20 wrote:SAS insists this report is wrong. I believe him in this instance. I don’t think LeBron ever considered NY.
To be fair, SAS is often wrong. I don't view what he has to say as being gospel, especially given the weight of the men insisting it is true.
Sambakick wrote:Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Nalod wrote:NardDogNation wrote:The Knicks screwed themselves from the get-go with that Donnie Walsh hire. The game had clearly passed him by, with the Pacers having been on a steady, 4-season decline before Walsh got the Knicks gig. He then continued that trend of ineptitude with the Knicks, making one boneheaded decision/indecision after another with the only agenda being cap space in 2010. I seriously wonder what the strategy was: to their knees and beg for LeBron to join a depleted roster and then have him recruit a second star? I'm not surprised why he spurned that "tempting" offer.I think that's one of the major themes for why we've sucked for so long. We've so often gone for the Donnie Walsh's of the basketball world who've had success in the distant past, rather than trying to find the new, young, cutting-edge executives that can adapt to a new world. Had a Sam Presti been at the helm back then, the LeBron pursuit would've been different.
Walsh was thrust on the knick by the league after Jimmy stood by Isiah in the aftermath of the awful seasons, trades and finally Anucha. HE resigned Isiah after anuhca. Walsh was seen at the time as reasonable.
Go back and look at the season before Lebron and look at what was happening. It was bad. Donnie was not welcome by Dolan. Dysfunction atop the knicks.The league was pushing Jerry Colangelo, a close friend of Donald Stern. Dolan, ever-the-contrarian, went with Donnie as a compromise. It made no sense then and no sense now because I think it was widely understood that Colangelo was the better executive. Dude oversaw multiple rebuilds/retools with the Suns over the span of ~20 years, all of which had them with one of the highest winning percentages in pro sports. To be fair though, it seemed like Jerry was looking to transition out of basketball at that point and let his son- Bryan Colangelo- take the forefront. Bryan Colaneglo, by most accounts, is a fucking idiot, so we might not have fared any better with him if Jerry wasn't running the day-to-day. But I still thought Colangelo was the smarter hire given his resume and connection with elite players due to his stint with USA Basketball.
Yes, COLANGELO would have faired better. My point was Donnie did not have much autonomy and Isiah was still in Dolan’s ear. In the blame game i dont hold Donnie accountable as i would others in same role.
Donnie should've extended David Lee on a reasonable 7-8 mil contract when he got here in 2008. Then organically rebuild the team. Instead his only plan was 2010 cap space and he let DLEE price himself into a near All-Star caliber player soon to be free agent in the summer of 2010. We signed Amare in 2010 for more than twice what it would've taken to re-sign Lee in 2008. We all know what happened once we had Amare aka Star1. We HAD to get Star2.
With DLEE signed reasonably we would've been able to slow build and not falter down the Starpath. DLee, Chandler, Gallo would've been a fun team and if Melo wanted to join fine, if not fine. We would've been in a good position with draft picks not squandered.
EVERYTHING started with Walsh and his two years of cap clearing. It was unthinkable before him to even do such a thing.
Walsh also spurned Tom Thibadeaux who would've loved the job for the ill-fitting Mike D'antoni. We didn't have a D'antoni team and D'antoni couldn't adjust his style.
Donnie Walsh wasn't a bad dude. But he was the wrong guy. He started a snowball that future Knicks GMs turned into an avalanche.
Keeping David Lee would've been a bad idea. He was already 26 years old by the time his contract expired and we had no obvious path to contention, with him secured to a relatively expensive, long-term deal.
The right move would've been to either flip him for a pick that offered cost-control beyond 2010 OR use him to dump a Jared Jefferies or Eddy Curry for cap flexibility and a lesser asset. The move I had in my mind back during the 2008 offseason was Nate Robinson, David Lee and Jared Jefferies to the Kings for Kenny Thomas' dead, expiring money and the 12th pick in the 2008 draft. The Kings had Kevin Martin coming into their own and had been looking to build a team around/with him. They had no hope of getting into the 2010 free agent bonanza, which leads me to believe they'd be comfortable offering Lee and Robinson long-term money. With the 12th pick, they picked Jason Thompson and I think it would be hard to argue then or now that he was a better value proposition than David Lee, especially given Kevin Martin's emergence. With the 12th pick though, I would've picked Robin Lopez, who was one of the few bigs that could've played in a D'Antoni offense back then.
When it boils down to it though, I never had a problem with the 2010 cap-clearing strategy. What I did have a problem with was its execution and the utter lack of dimension being offered. We completely gutted the roster and had no Plan B in the event there was no one worth signing. That made it a dumb plan.
I also never had a problem with D'Antoni in theory. He had a history with Team USA, which I thought meant alot to would-be free agents and he also had a reputation for maximizing marginal talents in his system. The careers of guys like Tim Thomas, Grant Hill, Boris Diaw, Steven Hunter, etc were all on dialysis before their stints with D'Antoni. That M.O. would later prove false but at the time, it was a quality I thought that was critical since we'd be gutting our team and would have to build a rotation with minimum contracts if we did sign two max free agents.
So no; Walsh was not a bad dude. He just was incompetent.
Uptown wrote:Nalod wrote:Amare signed with the cap space that could have been Lebron. Not both. Wade already in place. Big difference. Heat and Miami were best path for a chip at that moment.You're right. My bad. Amare signed after LeBron made his announcement. Had to go back and double check the dates....With one max slot available, its even more the reason why LeBron never really considered us.
We had two max contracts available. One went to Amare. The other went to Raymond Felton, Timofey Mozgov and the poo-poo platter we got back in the David Lee sign-and-trade (Ronny Turiaf, Kelenna Azubuike and Anthony Randolph).
NardDogNation wrote:Uptown wrote:Knicks never had a shot at Lebron!! Lebron, Wade and Melo had been talking about teaming up since 2006 or 2007. LeBron and Wade signed similar deals that allowed them to be free agents at the same time in 2010. Melo wanted his money, so instead of signing a 3 yr deal, he singed for 5 yrs so he was out. Enter Bosh.Wade was in Riley's ear, and he was able to free up cap space to sign 3 max FA's! The Bulls were the dark horse, not the Knicks. Even if the Knicks had a 1% chance, they signed Amare who was damaged goods and someone who LeBron wasn't looking to team up with.
...LeBron, Wade and Bosh had discussions about teaming up but not with a specific franchise in mind; a fact being reaffirmed through Nick Fridell, Bill Simmons and others. Had the Knicks been run properly and had any vision, they could've had those 3 max spots freed up by that 2010 offseason.
The Bulls were no darkhorse because of the subtle hostility Rose and Noah had to LeBron/other stars and because they did not have 3 max spots to offer. I also think the Knicks had more appeal because it was a bigger stage but neutral ground; whereas the Heat were percieved to be Wade's franchise.
The Bulls were in the discussion because they were Wade's home team. Wade talked about why the Bulls lost out to the Heat...
https://www.espn.com/blog/chicago/bulls/...
"Chris Bosh effect," Wade said, explaining why he and LeBron James didn't sign with the Bulls in 2010. "Had the opportunity for us three to play together and we both separately really wanted to play with Chris Bosh. So it was going to be kind of a sense where Chicago wanted two players, they could have got two players. It probably was going to be LeBron and Chris or me and Chris, right? It kind of was moreso that effect, that they could only do two. And Miami was able to get all three of us. And we really wanted to play together at that moment once we found out it could be a thing. So instead of it being me, LeBron and Derrick Rose, it's going to be a tough one. So we decided to pick what we thought was better from a basketball standpoint."
Notice Wade said "We". We was him, LeBron and Bosh, meaning they had a pact to play toegther. We didn't have 3 max slots meaning we never had a shot.