Knicks · Let's Talk Barrett for a Minute (page 1)
Let's assume Rose and team want to compliment his skillset more than last year. Adding a stretch 4 (let's say Carmelo, who i believe will be the starting 4 next year, and is a good spot up shooter), a premiere shooting wing (Joe Harris via FA or Buddy Hield via trade stand out) and drafting a PG who can play on or off the ball (Haliburton or Cole Anthony are most likely i think) and a stopgap PG (Teague or Augustin stand out as cheap options in free agency). Randle is either traded or moved to 6th man, and guys like Knox, Bullock, and Ntilikina get their opportunities to contribute as perimeter threats.
Where does that put Barrett in a Thibs system? Is he given more opportunities as a primary playmaker? Or is he still used an an off-ball mover? I hope at the very least this year is used as a year to understand what Barrett looks like with good complimentary players.
He did have a 9 assist game in a meaningless blowout game, but agreed, having some true perimeter threats would be interesting to see.
jrodmc wrote:Should be interesting to see if RJ can improve his FT shooting, if he's going to be a primary weapon. Yoot or no, 61% isn't going to cut it.
He did have a 9 assist game in a meaningless blowout game, but agreed, having some true perimeter threats would be interesting to see.
Yeah the FT% is a major key. He needs to get it up to 70% or greater next year. He was trending in that direction as the year went on.
In order for RJ to develop he is going to have to have better than avg vets around him that take winning very serious and losing very hard..
Why do you want cheap options, teague and Augustin are back ups, and starters by default, we've been doing this for 20yrs
None of those PG's in the draft are NBA ready, they may have talent, but need to be groomed, and that starts by bringing them into a winning culture like we did with CHARLIE WARD.
One of the reason young talented players get traded by the team that draft them (ie olapdio) is because of all the losing. You think for one minute that if were winning Kp would have requested a trade, or any player.
The knicks development process (of letting young player play through their mistakes) is total BS, and the results prove it.
Go NY Go NY Go!
NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Jimmy Butler/Deng are two guys I see a lot of similarities to in RJ who really thrived under Thibs. Hard to compare anyone to Pippen who's one of the best ever. Either way I see RJ/Thibs as a match made in heaven.Go NY Go NY Go!
knicks1248 wrote:Im only interested in bringing CP3 (if were talking stop gap pg)or FVV here.In order for RJ to develop he is going to have to have better than avg vets around him that take winning very serious and losing very hard..
Why do you want cheap options, teague and Augustin are back ups, and starters by default, we've been doing this for 20yrs
None of those PG's in the draft are NBA ready, they may have talent, but need to be groomed, and that starts by bringing them into a winning culture like we did with CHARLIE WARD.
One of the reason young talented players get traded by the team that draft them (ie olapdio) is because of all the losing. You think for one minute that if were winning Kp would have requested a trade, or any player.
The knicks development process (of letting young player play through their mistakes) is total BS, and the results prove it.
I'm also a fan of adding Chris Paul or FVV for the right price. But it's possible that if we draft a PG, we will just want someone to fill the gap until that player is ready. Augustin and Teague are 2 free agents that have previously played for Thibs and have some off-the-ball ability alongside Barrett.
NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Go NY Go NY Go!
RJ has the strength but I wish he had a bit more vertical athleticism and burst
fishmike wrote:NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Jimmy Butler/Deng are two guys I see a lot of similarities to in RJ who really thrived under Thibs. Hard to compare anyone to Pippen who's one of the best ever. Either way I see RJ/Thibs as a match made in heaven.Go NY Go NY Go!
Butler-type development is really my hope for him. My hope is Barrett becomes a 20 pts 6 reb 5 ast guy on 45% FG, 36% 3pt, and 75% FT within a couple of years as the Knicks improve.
martin wrote:NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Go NY Go NY Go!
RJ has the strength but I wish he had a bit more vertical athleticism and burst
Me too. That is an issue preventing him from becoming a superstar no question. Hopefully he can make up for it for the most part with his high BBIQ, competitive nature, and wiggle that he seems to possess.
Knixkik wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Im only interested in bringing CP3 (if were talking stop gap pg)or FVV here.In order for RJ to develop he is going to have to have better than avg vets around him that take winning very serious and losing very hard..
Why do you want cheap options, teague and Augustin are back ups, and starters by default, we've been doing this for 20yrs
None of those PG's in the draft are NBA ready, they may have talent, but need to be groomed, and that starts by bringing them into a winning culture like we did with CHARLIE WARD.
One of the reason young talented players get traded by the team that draft them (ie olapdio) is because of all the losing. You think for one minute that if were winning Kp would have requested a trade, or any player.
The knicks development process (of letting young player play through their mistakes) is total BS, and the results prove it.
I'm also a fan of adding Chris Paul or FVV for the right price. But it's possible that if we draft a PG, we will just want someone to fill the gap until that player is ready. Augustin and Teague are 2 free agents that have previously played for Thibs and have some off-the-ball ability alongside Barrett.
Gotcha.
The only way you get role players at a discount is if your a contender. If El Payton signed with the lakers it would have not been for no 8 million dollars, but more like 3 mill (rondo got 2.5 mill and is 5x better than payton).
Winning teams get good solid veteran players at a discount, losing teams pay through the nose for the same player, then you know you have a player who's more interested in $$ than winning
knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Im only interested in bringing CP3 (if were talking stop gap pg)or FVV here.In order for RJ to develop he is going to have to have better than avg vets around him that take winning very serious and losing very hard..
Why do you want cheap options, teague and Augustin are back ups, and starters by default, we've been doing this for 20yrs
None of those PG's in the draft are NBA ready, they may have talent, but need to be groomed, and that starts by bringing them into a winning culture like we did with CHARLIE WARD.
One of the reason young talented players get traded by the team that draft them (ie olapdio) is because of all the losing. You think for one minute that if were winning Kp would have requested a trade, or any player.
The knicks development process (of letting young player play through their mistakes) is total BS, and the results prove it.
I'm also a fan of adding Chris Paul or FVV for the right price. But it's possible that if we draft a PG, we will just want someone to fill the gap until that player is ready. Augustin and Teague are 2 free agents that have previously played for Thibs and have some off-the-ball ability alongside Barrett.
Gotcha.
The only way you get role players at a discount is if your a contender. If El Payton signed with the lakers it would have not been for no 8 million dollars, but more like 3 mill (rondo got 2.5 mill and is 5x better than payton).
Winning teams get good solid veteran players at a discount, losing teams pay through the nose for the same player, then you know you have a player who's more interested in $$ than winning
Very true. But the landscape is definitely changing with the pandemic. Not sure what it means yet, but free agency is going to be very interesting. The Knicks will have money to burn, like last year, if they forgo any major free agents. No doubt they will still go the stapgap route in terms of adding vets to balance out a young, rebuilding core. They just need to find better fits this time around. For me personally, i would like to at least invest in a shooter that can fit alongside Barrett and Mitch. Harris via agency, or Hield via trade are top candidates to consider.
Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Go NY Go NY Go!
RJ has the strength but I wish he had a bit more vertical athleticism and burst
Me too. That is an issue preventing him from becoming a superstar no question. Hopefully he can make up for it for the most part with his high BBIQ, competitive nature, and wiggle that he seems to possess.
That's why I compare him to Pippen. Pippen was a glider and really doesn't have that quick burst like other top players. He used change of speed and power to get to the hoop. I am not that worried about it though. I am more worried about his outside shot. My biggest worry is he becomes a bigger Elfrid Payton.
NYKBocker wrote:Knixkik wrote:martin wrote:NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Go NY Go NY Go!
RJ has the strength but I wish he had a bit more vertical athleticism and burst
Me too. That is an issue preventing him from becoming a superstar no question. Hopefully he can make up for it for the most part with his high BBIQ, competitive nature, and wiggle that he seems to possess.That's why I compare him to Pippen. Pippen was a glider and really doesn't have that quick burst like other top players. He used change of speed and power to get to the hoop. I am not that worried about it though. I am more worried about his outside shot. My biggest worry is he becomes a bigger Elfrid Payton.
I think work ethic separates him from Payton. Payton has a very flat shot and you can tell he doesn't put a lot into it. Barrett has better mechanics already and obviously the work ethic to improve a lot.
RJ's primary deficiency at this point is his shooting. All of his other skills are good or even great. He can get more athletic, but gains will be incremental relative to how much he can improve his shooting.
In 11 post-all star break games, he averaged around 17ppg, 3apg, 5rpg, 45% FG%, 32%3pt%, 62%FT in 30mpg. He took 4.6ft attempts/game. If he averaged 70FT% instead of 62%, that would add another .5ppg to his scoring average. In general, FT% is a good indicator of consistency as a shooter and correlates well with 3pt% as well.
@NYKBocker - I think you underrate Pippen's peak athleticism. He was probably right there with Jordan among the tops in the league for speed/power/body control in his prime, all with a slightly taller/longer body. He had a remarkably long career and we saw his body breakdown over the years. The guy we saw in Houston and Portland was already 33+ years old. I guess you can say RJ Barrett has the athleticism of 32 year old Scottie Pippen - or a post-broken ankle Grant Hill.
When I think about benchmarks for SGs, I look to our very own Allan Houston and Latrell Sprewell as reference. Houston was an excellent methodical athlete. He was a former high jumper and debatably had a higher vertical than Sprewell. But he wasn't a fast twitch guy and couldn't make squirrel-like body adjustments mid-air. He couldn't gather himself for a quick second leap. He couldn't make his body react on defense like the elite guys. Sprewell was an elite fast twitch guy, extremely shifty. He more than made up for any lack of skills with a high motor and ferocious intensity. Sure he could jump, but I think we marveled at the quickness and power he brought to his forays near the basket.
Knixkik wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Knixkik wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Im only interested in bringing CP3 (if were talking stop gap pg)or FVV here.In order for RJ to develop he is going to have to have better than avg vets around him that take winning very serious and losing very hard..
Why do you want cheap options, teague and Augustin are back ups, and starters by default, we've been doing this for 20yrs
None of those PG's in the draft are NBA ready, they may have talent, but need to be groomed, and that starts by bringing them into a winning culture like we did with CHARLIE WARD.
One of the reason young talented players get traded by the team that draft them (ie olapdio) is because of all the losing. You think for one minute that if were winning Kp would have requested a trade, or any player.
The knicks development process (of letting young player play through their mistakes) is total BS, and the results prove it.
I'm also a fan of adding Chris Paul or FVV for the right price. But it's possible that if we draft a PG, we will just want someone to fill the gap until that player is ready. Augustin and Teague are 2 free agents that have previously played for Thibs and have some off-the-ball ability alongside Barrett.
Gotcha.
The only way you get role players at a discount is if your a contender. If El Payton signed with the lakers it would have not been for no 8 million dollars, but more like 3 mill (rondo got 2.5 mill and is 5x better than payton).
Winning teams get good solid veteran players at a discount, losing teams pay through the nose for the same player, then you know you have a player who's more interested in $$ than winning
Very true. But the landscape is definitely changing with the pandemic. Not sure what it means yet, but free agency is going to be very interesting. The Knicks will have money to burn, like last year, if they forgo any major free agents. No doubt they will still go the stapgap route in terms of adding vets to balance out a young, rebuilding core. They just need to find better fits this time around. For me personally, i would like to at least invest in a shooter that can fit alongside Barrett and Mitch. Harris via agency, or Hield via trade are top candidates to consider.
The very first thing the knicks have to do is find a true veteran leader or leaders, that's where development starts.
I dont think our young guys are talented enough to be called a core if your talking about (knox, dsj, frank, rj and Mitch) if your trading for better players, 2 or 3 of those guys will be included in any trade.
technomaster wrote:Paul Pierce didn't let mere "good" athleticism stop him from greatness. He had a lot of the veteran guile and craftiness at an early age that served him throughout his career. RJ is similar in that regard. I think that's his ceiling.RJ's primary deficiency at this point is his shooting. All of his other skills are good or even great. He can get more athletic, but gains will be incremental relative to how much he can improve his shooting.
In 11 post-all star break games, he averaged around 17ppg, 3apg, 5rpg, 45% FG%, 32%3pt%, 62%FT in 30mpg. He took 4.6ft attempts/game. If he averaged 70FT% instead of 62%, that would add another .5ppg to his scoring average. In general, FT% is a good indicator of consistency as a shooter and correlates well with 3pt% as well.
@NYKBocker - I think you underrate Pippen's peak athleticism. He was probably right there with Jordan among the tops in the league for speed/power/body control in his prime, all with a slightly taller/longer body. He had a remarkably long career and we saw his body breakdown over the years. The guy we saw in Houston and Portland was already 33+ years old. I guess you can say RJ Barrett has the athleticism of 32 year old Scottie Pippen - or a post-broken ankle Grant Hill.When I think about benchmarks for SGs, I look to our very own Allan Houston and Latrell Sprewell as reference. Houston was an excellent methodical athlete. He was a former high jumper and debatably had a higher vertical than Sprewell. But he wasn't a fast twitch guy and couldn't make squirrel-like body adjustments mid-air. He couldn't gather himself for a quick second leap. He couldn't make his body react on defense like the elite guys. Sprewell was an elite fast twitch guy, extremely shifty. He more than made up for any lack of skills with a high motor and ferocious intensity. Sure he could jump, but I think we marveled at the quickness and power he brought to his forays near the basket.
Pierce came into the league shooting 40% from 3. You either have that or you don't. Age aside, RJ isn't going to have a whole hell of a lot of time to develop a shot, especially if he can't become a prime slasher/distributor. Not setting the league on fire defensively either. Hopefully Thibs changes that as well. Hopefully patience prevails.
H20 was a shooting clinic, but had the tendency to fade to invisible in many games, which I hated. Agreed, Spree was endless motor and even held the record for most consecutive threes made without a miss (yes, I'm a fanboy). And he brought it for 48 on both ends. Rare level of intensity.
jrodmc wrote:technomaster wrote:Paul Pierce didn't let mere "good" athleticism stop him from greatness. He had a lot of the veteran guile and craftiness at an early age that served him throughout his career. RJ is similar in that regard. I think that's his ceiling.RJ's primary deficiency at this point is his shooting. All of his other skills are good or even great. He can get more athletic, but gains will be incremental relative to how much he can improve his shooting.
In 11 post-all star break games, he averaged around 17ppg, 3apg, 5rpg, 45% FG%, 32%3pt%, 62%FT in 30mpg. He took 4.6ft attempts/game. If he averaged 70FT% instead of 62%, that would add another .5ppg to his scoring average. In general, FT% is a good indicator of consistency as a shooter and correlates well with 3pt% as well.
@NYKBocker - I think you underrate Pippen's peak athleticism. He was probably right there with Jordan among the tops in the league for speed/power/body control in his prime, all with a slightly taller/longer body. He had a remarkably long career and we saw his body breakdown over the years. The guy we saw in Houston and Portland was already 33+ years old. I guess you can say RJ Barrett has the athleticism of 32 year old Scottie Pippen - or a post-broken ankle Grant Hill.When I think about benchmarks for SGs, I look to our very own Allan Houston and Latrell Sprewell as reference. Houston was an excellent methodical athlete. He was a former high jumper and debatably had a higher vertical than Sprewell. But he wasn't a fast twitch guy and couldn't make squirrel-like body adjustments mid-air. He couldn't gather himself for a quick second leap. He couldn't make his body react on defense like the elite guys. Sprewell was an elite fast twitch guy, extremely shifty. He more than made up for any lack of skills with a high motor and ferocious intensity. Sure he could jump, but I think we marveled at the quickness and power he brought to his forays near the basket.
Pierce came into the league shooting 40% from 3. You either have that or you don't. Age aside, RJ isn't going to have a whole hell of a lot of time to develop a shot, especially if he can't become a prime slasher/distributor. Not setting the league on fire defensively either. Hopefully Thibs changes that as well. Hopefully patience prevails.
H20 was a shooting clinic, but had the tendency to fade to invisible in many games, which I hated. Agreed, Spree was endless motor and even held the record for most consecutive threes made without a miss (yes, I'm a fanboy). And he brought it for 48 on both ends. Rare level of intensity.
Completely agree about Houston and Sprewell. My dad and i talk about Houston's disappearing acts to this day. He would look like one of the best shooters and scorers in the league in the first quarter than disappear for no apparent reason the rest of the game. I see Barrett as having some of that Sprewell intensity though.
martin wrote:NYKBocker wrote:As a finished product, I am envisioning RJ in between Pippen and Jimmy Butler. IF RJ buys himself a reliable outside shot then he will be a heck of a player. Maybe even becoming the best player coming out of the 2019 draft.Go NY Go NY Go!
RJ has the strength but I wish he had a bit more vertical athleticism and burst
He makes up for lack of burst with craftiness...not as quick as Harden with what he does, but great body control and misdirection in his moves to the basket...another thing that is key...he LOVES contact..that is key because based on his shiftiness he can bait his defender and get them off balance but can finish when the defense recovers or kick out on the collapse...