Knicks · What are your thoughts on Obi Toppin at 8? (page 1)

Looking at some of the mock drafts there could be a chance that Toppin is available to the knicks at 8. Will they go for BPA or draft Cole anthony or Vassell? He will be 23 yrs old next year, his defense is forgettable, maybe Thibs can work on Toppin's defense but he can be an Amare 2.0 with a better 3pt shooting. I haven't read any injury concerns. He might be a good fit with Mitch.

Okoro seems slated to be gone when the knicks are on the clock. Both Haliburton and Hayes could be gone as well. I haven't really thought of Obi as a pick. Can he be a good pick for the knicks at 8?

Jimbo5 wrote:Looking at some of the mock drafts there could be a chance that Toppin is available to the knicks at 8. Will they go for BPA or draft Cole anthony or Vassell? He will be 23 yrs old next year, his defense is forgettable, maybe Thibs can work on Toppin's defense but he can be an Amare 2.0 with a better 3pt shooting. I haven't read any injury concerns. He might be a good fit with Mitch.

Okoro seems slated to be gone when the knicks are on the clock. Both Haliburton and Hayes could be gone as well. I haven't really thought of Obi as a pick. Can he be a good pick for the knicks at 8?

If Obi drops, I'd try to trade back. Maybe the Celtic give us 24 and another pick?

His dunks look great, but his defense is so horrifically bad I really don't want him at all- look it up on YouTube, it's some of the worst I've ever seen!

I think there’s a very real chance that Toppin is the best player in the draft. I don’t think his ceiling is very high, but it’s high enough, and he’s pretty much a guaranteed contributor. He’s that stretch four that we all keep asking for. When people make comps for him, it is guys like Shawn Marion, Kenyon Martin, and Donyell Marshall. I have Edwards as #1 and Toppin #2 overall. I personally am not sold on this draft class overall, and I see a can’t miss guy that would play great next to Mitch

I'm pretty much ignorant on these prospects but I'd like someone who plays both ends of the floor.

KnickDanger wrote:I'm pretty much ignorant on these prospects but I'd like someone who plays both ends of the floor.

He was an All-American selection, received the Karl Malone Award (top power forward), and the Naismith College Basketball Player Of The Year. He’s a high motor player and maybe he has extra to give to Knox

SupremeCommander wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:I'm pretty much ignorant on these prospects but I'd like someone who plays both ends of the floor.

He was an All-American selection, received the Karl Malone Award (top power forward), and the Naismith College Basketball Player Of The Year. He’s a high motor player and maybe he has extra to give to Knox

Have only seen the highlights but his offense look very good; explosive and a stretch 4 for sure. Strength down low is not so good and he probably makes Amare look good on defense.

He may be one of those picks like Frye that explode out of the gate and generate some ESPN highlights, and he would certainly surpass Frye in every way in that regard. Pump up his value and immediately send elsewhere when you can.

Can't see him on a deep playoff team unless you got defenders around him

Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

Yeah, watching that video his defense looks unfixable as it's physical AND mental- terrible hip movement, terrible footwork, terrible lateral speed, terrible lower leg strength, terrible instincts, terrible fundamentals. His defense isn't just bad, it's an absolute abomination

At this point the coaching staff and front office have studied the potential top 10 players in the draft, with Toppin the clear concern is his defense, with a defensive coach at the helm in Thibs im sure they have talked about the probability of fixing his defense, if its even doable. It will be interesting to see how this will play out if we draft Toppin. We will have a player who is all offense in Toppin and a player known to be all-defense in Frank. The development coaches will have their work cut out for them this season, add to their list of players to develop are DSJ and knox!

smackeddog wrote:Defitinitely agree- great on offense, but that defense:

One of the podcasts said he looked like a grandpa with bad hips on defense- harsh but true!

Its pretty hard to watch this, it will take alot of patience to make him into a serviceable defender based on the video.

Great offensive talent but I’ll pass.. His Defense 🙄

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

To the anti-Toppin guys, you gotta realize we're picking 8th? We're very unlikely to get a complete player at that spot. Toppin doesn't need to be all-league defensively. If he could just be adequate and not a liability, his potential offensively is very intriguing. Considering he's an excellent athlete, I don't think being passable defensively to far-fetched. I've watched Toppin play several times, dude can shoot too, he isn't just a dunking machine.

If Toppin is available and Hayes is off the board, I would be very happy with the selection, especially over Haliburton, Okoro, Vassell, and Cole Anthony (please note the underline and bold for Haliburton). And we gotta figure out a way to move up with the second first round pick to get Kira Lewis.

Of course, watch us pick Haliburton.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

Couple of other items about Toppin, I think he's one of those late bloomers who did a prep year after high school and red shirted his freshman year of college. I think he also had a late growth spurt. Do you think those factors could impact his lack of defense at his point of his career?

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

Welpee wrote:Couple of other items about Toppin, I think he's one of those late bloomers who did a prep year after high school and red shirted his freshman year of college. I think he also had a late growth spurt. Do you think those factors could impact his lack of defense at his point of his career?

It's the opposite. Obi had an extra 2 years of coaching and he STILL couldn't learn defense

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:If Toppin is available at 8, you take him and dont think twice! That would be a great value pick! He is a true stretch 4 and in a pick and roll-centric-NBA, Toppin could average 20 pts per right out the gate. The best part of his offensive game is, unlike Randle, he doesn't need to massage the ball for 7-10 seconds before trying to create offense for himself.

He is an elite athlete, and is one of the most explosive players in the draft. For those worried about his defense, just keep in mind, we will have one of the best defensive coaches in the league who will be creating the defensive system. I'm sure Thibs will coach-him up and put him in situations where he can be at least average on the defensive end not to mention the goal would be to surround him with elite defensive players. Keep mind, Paul Pierce wasn't an elite defensive player by any stretch and managed to win a chip playing for Thibs (Thibs was the defensive coach in Boston) playing alongside defensive players like KG and Rondo.

In the right situation, with the right players around him, he can flourish. In the wrong system, he will be exposed. If the Knicks take him, I have to believe there is a plan. With that said, I would be surprised he is there at 8.

For me there is a large gap between not knowing what to do defensively and not being an elite defender. Your PF/C combo has to direct traffic and there is no way Obi is capable of doing that.

Can't move feet, can't defend perimeter, can be overwhelmed in post, prob not smart enough to be a good enough weak side defender.

I hear what you are saying, and it does look bad! But I'm looking at Obi from a coaches perspective. I've been a HS coach for the last 4 years (Last year was my last) and there are clear issues with his technique that can be improved with coaching, repetition and film work. Case n Point, just look at the first 3 defensive plays on the youtube video. The 1st 25 seconds. That's a technique issue.

I used to train my middle school girls over the summer, one of the first defensive techniques we used to teach them was chopping their feet, and coming to a jump stop with a hand up in close-out drills. The 1st two plays he got way too close to the defender and the last play Obi ran at the shooter like football player would trying to make a tackle. It's laughable. Either he has never been taught how to properly close out, sit down, and properly angle his defender to the baseline or its a drill that Anthony Grant, coach of Dayton didn't incorporate consistently. Go watch film of the Villanova kids and you can see the practice drills in their games. You can see the practice habits. The jump stops in the paint with the ball, the pivoting, the back cuts, the close outs, etc. You think its ironic that Kyle Lowry, Mikal Bridges, Siddiq Bey and Josh Hart are so good fundamentally on the offensive and defensive ends of the ball?

Obi will never be a lock down defender or anything close to it! But there is no way he will look that bad with proper coaching. He needs a coach that is willing to break Obi down and build him back up with basic defensive fundamentals, how to use angles, use the baselines and use his help defenders. He also needs a coach that will hold him accountable.

Do you remember this quote from Amare back in 2013..."I've never been taught defense in my whole career. To now have a coach that actually teaches defense and teaches strategies and knows positioning and posture and how to guard different plays is going to be helpful. I'm going to take it as a challenge, accept the challenge and try to improve as a player."

I think some of this may be true of Obi. Not sure how much of an emphazised was placed on the defensive side of the ball while he was training. Clearly not much.
Obviously, Amare didn't accept the challenge the was he should have, but Amare was already damaged goods at the point...But watching Obi on the defensive end, I see clear gaps in his defensive training, understanding and habits. Maybe I just have a coaches mentality, thinking anybody can be fixed..lol.

He went to a sports prep HS and then spent 2 years in college and will be 23 years old soon. At what point do you say that he has enough coaching and just doesn't get it as a player?

I remember when Allan Houston arrived in NY as a free agent (at age 25) and he was horrible defensively. He eventually became adequate defensively. And he played four years of college ball at a SEC program.

martin wrote:

Welpee wrote:Couple of other items about Toppin, I think he's one of those late bloomers who did a prep year after high school and red shirted his freshman year of college. I think he also had a late growth spurt. Do you think those factors could impact his lack of defense at his point of his career?

It's the opposite. Obi had an extra 2 years of coaching and he STILL couldn't learn defense

I have no idea of the quality of coaching he received at the prep school. Also, a player is not getting the same amount of attention as a red shirt compared to the guys actually playing. However, I guess it is true that he's had more time to get better than a one and done guy. And if he had a growth spurt and was being coached as a wing defender and grew into a low post player, wouldn't he need to be taught a totally different technique defensively?