Knicks · The Miami Heat Model of Team Building for the Knicks (page 2)

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:Also would be nice for NY to emulate Miami's zero income tax rate and summer all year round appeal, to help bring FAs of LeBron's caliber.

If NY state did that they would be asking other states to make up the difference in their state budgets.

Yeah, but that hasn't stopped the LA teams and didn't stop Brooklyn. The major thing is that we have to stop sucking.

LA has the sun, the palm trees and hot chicks who came over to conquer Hollywood. Brooklyn had never won a championship last time I checked. And them landing KD and Kyrie was a fluke. KD was injured, which may have scared off a lot of teams, and Kyrie is a mercurial flat earther. Who knows what goes in his head and how he makes life decisions? We get talent thanks to sentimental reasons (big population cluster, so lots of players grew up around here), but lose out big in terms of quality of life to teams from down in the Sun Belt.

I understand that we are a dysfunctional organization, but from an FA perspective, what could they find uncomfortable? Only that we have not fielded a competitive team in decades. What else? That the training facility is all the way up in Purchase? The rest of our management's misdeeds are more of a pain to fans than to the players.

Knixkik wrote:Whether they win or lose this round against the Bucks, the Heat have found a way to properly build around their 2 best players Butler and Adebayo and become a dangerous playoff team. Given the similarity in skill-sets, the Knicks should be borrowing this model to build around Barrett and Robinson;

C Adebayo
PF Crowder (3&D combo forward)
SF Butler
SG D Robinson/Herro (pair of 3pt snipers)
PG Dragic/Nunn (PGs who can shoot and play on or off the ball)

They have loaded up at shooting at every other position and have guards who can play equally well on or off the bench. If we were to follow a similar model

https://www.basketball-reference.com/exe...

What the Heat were able to do was mine well late draft and in the UDFA and churn those players in trade. Post LeBron James, they were sort of stuck. They were basically the last team to use the old sign and trade system, so they were out 4 first rounders and a pair of 2nds for Bosh and LBJ.

The league also changed the mid level exception post Decision, which took away a lot of their flexibility

Wade refused to change his game ( learn to shoot a three and lose some weight) so that hurt them. Bosh was an unpredictable situation and it hurt their cap until the Chris Bosh Rule was created.

Heat made the most of their situation but also gave out some head scratching deals because they needed to get to the cap floor.

The Heat don't really have a model, they just hold ground until they can get a prime free agent to sign. They've had the advantage of using sign and trades to get the Bird Rights of key players. I don't think is a system that can be replicated.

I do think how the Heat mine UDFA and late picks is something every team wants to have work for them too.

If the Heat can't get Greek Freak, then what do they do with that carved out cap space? Their next best option might be Oladipo.

What the Knicks need to do and have always needed to do is to pick a GM and head coach without optics in mind. Elevating Erik Spolestra was not a good optics decision at the time for the Heat. Nor the Nets hiring Atkinson. But they were good coaches. Michele Roberts is a good litigator, but she has no business in labor disputes, it's not her area of expertise. But she fits the optics that the NBPA wanted and when owners kept running them over, they had to pay for that decision.

Adebayo was considered a reach at 14. So was Herro in his draft.

If there's something that the Heat do very well, its to not give a shit what anyone thinks. LBJ wanted Spolestra fired. Riley said go fuck yourself.

The problem this version of the Heat faces is it's only suited to go after free agents. They don't have the trade capital to trade for a big name and still have a worthy roster afterwards.

The cap floor is a real problem under the current system. It hurts the Knicks very badly but even causes problems for a team like the Heat. It forces you to spend money on players whose real market value don't reflect it. A workaround given at one of the MIT Sloans was a five year cap bundle. Essentially you take a projection of five consecutive years of cap and let teams spend it how they want as long as they hit the total benchmark at the end of year five. The other suggestion was using the rosters as the NFL does, i.e. an inactive list. And then prorate salary against number of games played. This would have prevented the horse fuckery that Tracy McGrady did in Houston. I mean he just fucked the Rockets for shits and giggles.

The thing that helped the Heat was when they did have a millstone contract, it was a big one. If you are going to have bad contracts, one big one looks different than a bunch of small ones. One John Wall deal while he is injured is actually more valuable than a gaggle of Portis/Randle/Gibson/Ellington/Harkless. At least with Wall, if you absorbed it in a deal, you got picks and those minutes and roster spots can be used to audition other guys. The Heat were able to give minutes to audition players because they were able to trade some of their cannon fodder veterans off the roster. The Knicks were stuck because they had totally fucked contracts like Calderon, Noah, Bargs, etc.

Where this impacts the Knicks is to look hard at the retrade value of anyone they sign and make that a hard filter. Marcus Morris and Robin Lopez are good examples of good retrade value signings. I know this sounds counter-intuitive to many here, but one big ass bad contract is often a better long term compromise.

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

NardDogNation wrote: I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed....

They made reaches ( against value for slot) in several spots that could have backfired. Tyler Herro was nowhere near 13th on anyone's draft board. Betting a large deal on Hassan Whiteside blew up in their faces. Bam was seen as going 10 - 12 picks too soon for his draft projections.

Locked in job security gives Riley room to basically gamble. A lot of GMs won't make that gamble because playing it safe buys them another year or so or more on the job.

The lesson for the Knicks is to get a guy like Sean Marks, then have the guts and balls to leave him alone and ride it out with him. This is where the 76ers failed. They picked Hinkie, right or wrong, and they needed to let it all play out.

Dolan has fuck you money. There are times when he needs to look at the rest of the league and just say Fuck You to them.

This is the kind of free flowing offense Spolestra wanted LBJ to buy into and honestly if he had, and Wade had actually developed a three point shot, the Heat would have won 6-7 rings. Spo told him, the Heat could easily win the East year after year, but to beat the top Western teams, they needed less of that bullshit LBJ/Wade taking turns on iso horseshit. Instead of seeing the logic in it, LBJ tried to have him fired. Then Riley stepped in and Spo had to compromise. Play my defensive system the way I want it then you can choose to play offense any way you want. Which got exposed to the Mavs and Spurs like Spo and Riley said it would. LeGM demanded roster signings that took all the balance out of those Heat squads and forced Spo to patch up all the holes. This guy made Joel Anthony look useful. I mean who the fuck could have done that? LBJ is just a dipshit. Won the genetic lottery but is a flat out dipshit.

Look at the balls on that Herro kid. Right now he's showing shades of Chris Mullin with athleticism, which is terrifying. Look at how fast he's getting his shot off with good mechanics. Zero hesitation. Killer mentality.

Briggs likes Christian Wood and his draft picks are Wiseman, Nesmith and Bane.

TripleThreat wrote:

NardDogNation wrote: I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed....

They made reaches ( against value for slot) in several spots that could have backfired. Tyler Herro was nowhere near 13th on anyone's draft board. Betting a large deal on Hassan Whiteside blew up in their faces. Bam was seen as going 10 - 12 picks too soon for his draft projections.

Locked in job security gives Riley room to basically gamble. A lot of GMs won't make that gamble because playing it safe buys them another year or so or more on the job.

The lesson for the Knicks is to get a guy like Sean Marks, then have the guts and balls to leave him alone and ride it out with him. This is where the 76ers failed. They picked Hinkie, right or wrong, and they needed to let it all play out.

Dolan has fuck you money. There are times when he needs to look at the rest of the league and just say Fuck You to them.

Good post.

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

3pt shooting is more important to our rebuild than a PG in my opinion.

I Can't believe you think that, that's like saying my arms are more important than my legs, you need both to fully function. Both are equally important because without a penetrating guard who's going to put pressure on the defense to collapse, your going to play east to west?

Maybe in the days of post ups and ISO's that maybe have been the case, not today.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

3pt shooting is more important to our rebuild than a PG in my opinion.

I Can't believe you think that, that's like saying my arms are more important than my legs, you need both to fully function. Both are equally important because without a penetrating guard who's going to put presser on the defense to collapse, your going to play east to west?

Maybe in the days of post ups and ISO's that maybe have been the case, not today.

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

3pt shooting is more important to our rebuild than a PG in my opinion.

I Can't believe you think that, that's like saying my arms are more important than my legs, you need both to fully function. Both are equally important because without a penetrating guard who's going to put pressure on the defense to collapse, your going to play east to west?

Maybe in the days of post ups and ISO's that maybe have been the case, not today.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a point guard. This is the age of point forwards. We've even seen Steph play off the ball for stretches. I agree, we do need a penetrator and creator. Maybe RJ has that potential, but we can't count on it.

Thats the thinking that got us where we are today..pointguardless

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

3pt shooting is more important to our rebuild than a PG in my opinion.

I Can't believe you think that, that's like saying my arms are more important than my legs, you need both to fully function. Both are equally important because without a penetrating guard who's going to put pressure on the defense to collapse, your going to play east to west?

Maybe in the days of post ups and ISO's that maybe have been the case, not today.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a point guard. This is the age of point forwards. We've even seen Steph play off the ball for stretches. I agree, we do need a penetrator and creator. Maybe RJ has that potential, but we can't count on it.

Thats the thinking that got us where we are today..pointguardless

No, I'm pretty sure we've brought in enough point guards to fill a starting five. I think bad talent evaluation is what got us here today. Or do you think we just brought in DSJ to have a representative in the slam dunk competition?

* Make draft picks that ultimately end up better than draft value (Josh Richardson, Nunn, Adebayo, Herro). Richardson is a bit remarkable in that as a 2nd round pick, he far exceeded the value of lottery pick Justise Winslow... and has a premium skill set in today's game.
* Take flyers on bargain bin players and hope you can develop "talent" (How the heck did Whiteside come out of the scrapheaps and develop into an all-star)
* TRADE your homegrown players/assets when it gives you a shot to get premium talent.
* Pay good (but not great) talent and hope they develop into superstars (Dragic?!)

I mean, I think this is a pretty standard playbook - you take some calculated risks and hope they pan out.
I would add that it really makes a huge difference if you can get a few non-lottery picks to become legit starter quality players, even better if they become legit All-Stars or MVPs. Consider both Kawhi and Giannis were both mid-round picks.

I would add though that they have a few bonuses on top of the gameplay (they're responsible for #1 and #2, the others are Florida):
1) stable senior leadership (Riley's been there for a long time)
2) stable coaching (Spoelstra has been there a long time) - perhaps this speaks to why they seem to have a better than average track record of draft picks panning out into legit players
3) low state taxes (which also translates to relatively higher salary)
4) great winter weather

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:The "Miami Model" has nothing to do with the players they have. I think they've demonstrated over the years that they can pull players from the scrapheap and give them the tools to succeed. What they do takes place behind the scenes and involves people that may not have even played college ball, let alone seen a NBA court. Unless we make a goodfaith effort to invest in our scouting department, medical staff, strength & conditioning team, our G-League, we'll never come close to touching what the Heat...or the Jazz...or the Raptors do on a year-in, year-out basis with no-name players. Seriously, the fucking Raptors are elite without having a single lottery pick their rotation!

This is the model - they just have incredible people in their FO & at the top.

I've said Dolan should offer Pop part ownership, and put him in charge.

Hopefully, we'll see if our brain trust can move the needle enough to stay. If these guys are smart and they can get enough time, hopefully they can start building something.

The thing is, if they can get it right then players will want to come here. NY is an attractive market and being part of a knicks resurgence has the most upside for any player looking for a career or legacy boost. But we need to show some semblance of a plan first.

I was thinking out of the draft. Let’s increase our 3 point shooting
Nesmith Bane. 37 find pg who’s left who can shoot 3s abd handle Riller Howard etc

I like Christian wood. He’s flexible good d and under rated. Wood Robinson Randle all we need upfront

3pt shooting is more important to our rebuild than a PG in my opinion.

I Can't believe you think that, that's like saying my arms are more important than my legs, you need both to fully function. Both are equally important because without a penetrating guard who's going to put pressure on the defense to collapse, your going to play east to west?

Maybe in the days of post ups and ISO's that maybe have been the case, not today.

Doesn't necessarily have to be a point guard. This is the age of point forwards. We've even seen Steph play off the ball for stretches. I agree, we do need a penetrator and creator. Maybe RJ has that potential, but we can't count on it.

Thats the thinking that got us where we are today..pointguardless

No, I'm pretty sure we've brought in enough point guards to fill a starting five. I think bad talent evaluation is what got us here today. Or do you think we just brought in DSJ to have a representative in the slam dunk competition?

I agree bad talent evaluation has plagued the organization. But we need a pg far more than 3pt shooting. A solid pg can unlock a lot of talent that we have.

Just imagine a real pg like Rondo running the p&r with Mitchell- that is an easy +10 points every game.

Sure, add a 3pt shooter and that is an even better +10.

But we have to find a better pg option than Payton, and if we don’t, we better bring him back and hope between him, Frank & DSjr one of those three can take a step forward.

3pt shooting is definitely 1b on our list.

BRIGGS wrote:Miami is breaking the mold

They really are. They have their 2 stars in Butler and Bam. They have their secondary playmaker in Dragic who can play on or off the ball. They have their 3&D combo forward in Crowder and 2 elite shooters/shot makers in Robinson and Herro. They are really only playing those 6 players. Nunn is out of the rotation essentially. On paper they have all of the pieces that you need in the modern nba. Robinson and Herro show that having elite shooters is worth its weight in gold.

Nalod wrote:Bucks were 52-8 before stoppage.
They were the mold.
MIami is kicking their ass and now the hot darling team. Getting Butler was huge.
PHX a few weeks ago looked great. The new Mold?
Portland did a great job once healthy and if stayed might have knocked off Lakers?