Knicks · How Would You Feel About Russell Westbrook As A New York Knick? (page 5)
GustavBahler wrote:You get Westbrook and 2 All-Stars with something left in the tank. And still leave a good bench. Sure, Westbrook would definitely be a good option. Otherwise its what the Knicks org. has traditionally done to distract from all the losing.
True. He is not yet in decline. The kid is a monster and perhaps if he dials it down a bit he could play “smarter”. It all boils down to “The right circumstances”.
We don’t have an engrained culture but we just rebuild the FO an the coaching staff which Dolan has to get credit for spending big on. Not praise as nothing has happened but at least we installed a new thought process with people respected. Its knicks, we have done this before. Phil, Isiah, Walsh.........
Jury is out.
WE know we need shooters. ITs what all teams need or want. Westbrook is a playmaker.
At the same time Westbrook was not MVP right away. He moved up the draft really fast and needed some seasonsing. Its why I’m hopeful about Dennis. No, I don’t expect Denis to sniff this level but even if to just elevate his play to be a good trade asset helps the knicks.
Isn’t that what we want?
Back on point, “under the circumstance”. What is that? It also means some salary, pick(s) and yoot go out the door.
Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:You get Westbrook and 2 All-Stars with something left in the tank. And still leave a good bench. Sure, Westbrook would definitely be a good option. Otherwise its what the Knicks org. has traditionally done to distract from all the losing.True. He is not yet in decline. The kid is a monster and perhaps if he dials it down a bit he could play “smarter”. It all boils down to “The right circumstances”.
We don’t have an engrained culture but we just rebuild the FO an the coaching staff which Dolan has to get credit for spending big on. Not praise as nothing has happened but at least we installed a new thought process with people respected. Its knicks, we have done this before. Phil, Isiah, Walsh.........
Jury is out.
WE know we need shooters. ITs what all teams need or want. Westbrook is a playmaker.
At the same time Westbrook was not MVP right away. He moved up the draft really fast and needed some seasonsing. Its why I’m hopeful about Dennis. No, I don’t expect Denis to sniff this level but even if to just elevate his play to be a good trade asset helps the knicks.
Isn’t that what we want?
Back on point, “under the circumstance”. What is that? It also means some salary, pick(s) and yoot go out the door.
Westbrook’s decline when it does happen will be fast. His entire game is based on his explosiveness
KnickDanger wrote:Why do I feel those pushing hardest for Westbrook will be complaining the loudest in 2 years when we are cap strung, bereft of picks, and looking at 25 wins to go with a terrible product on the court?
I dunno. Trading for Westbrook would be so Knick-like
He was playing for one of the best offensive coaches in the league with incredible spacing that allowed him to operate and not be double teamed. See Duhon and Feltons numbers under Mike. We don't have the shooters at any position and more importantly whose going to challenge him on offense. RJ? Randle? Let's take one more season, acquire one more pick and hope that Tom can help pump and dump Smith and Randle and acquire more draft capital.
The Happy path thinking is something like we sign FVV then Giannis decides he wants to play for the Knicks, and...
There's the groupthink crowd who believe Rose and Thibs and co. are only going to sign and trade for their dinner guests - CP3, Melo, and their toadies.
And then there's the "process" group who still believe DSJ has a chance, that Knox is a keeper, and if only the right guru arrives...
And then there's reality. We finally have some desirable assets and many teams want to shed some talented but unwelcome-back players who under normal circumstances the Knicks would have zero chance at acquiring.
It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
fwk00 wrote:It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
We're don't have nearly as many assets as we had when we built that squad Woody built. That was a good stretch when we hit on a good majority of our picks. David Lee,
Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari etc. Heck, even Landry Fields was a valued prospect. And they hadn't squandered all of their draft picks. This squad isn't their. It's at least a year or two away.
BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
We're don't have nearly as many assets as we had when we built that squad Woody built. That was a good stretch when we hit on a good majority of our picks. David Lee,
Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari etc. Heck, even Landry Fields was a valued prospect. And they hadn't squandered all of their draft picks. This squad isn't their. It's at least a year or two away.
Let's just play with a few ideas.
Prioritize signing Harrell or Wood.
What's Minny want for Beasley? (our trade exception and a future second-rounder?) (S&T Pinson?) or trade for Hield
Westbrook and House for Randle, Ellington, Payton, DSJ, Knox
I think all this stuff is doable more or less. I'm not seeing major youth degradation.
I'm not seeing draft pick depletion.
Pretty strong first and second units to my eye.
Doesn't that leave a decent team before even signing another FA (beside Harrell)?
knicks1248 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:TripleThreat wrote:franco12 wrote:This is a definitional starphuch move - over estimating our talent, believing a trade will make a huge impact and turn us into something we're not.
It's fair point. And for 28 other teams, Westbrook would be a horrible fit.But this would be a move understanding he's not going to lead you to a championship. He has flaws and he clearly wasn't a fit for Houston ( even Morey didn't really want the guy) but on a team where he's the sole focal point with no real pressure to drag his team deep in the playoffs, he can produce.
If Thibs can manage early Derrick Rose (one player carrying the offense), then he can manage Westbrook.
If we feel that all that is needed is a next level PG, would it not be a better idea to go with an option that costs much less and does not sacrifice draft assets?
1. Van Vleet.
2. Conley (PO)(Good and adds culture mentoring)
3. Goran Dragic (No. 3 scoring PG in the playoffs. Ahead of Russ)Westbrook in OKC with Adams and George barely did what you think he can come here and do. Make the playoffs only to lose in 1st round. And that was a couple of years and better knees ago. Maybe the plan should be to invest in younger assets that can be combined, in time, with a positive draft mix? However, do agree that it all depends on the direction the new FO takes. Fear that with Thibs and Rose hired, Knicks may go the starphuck rout.
It seems like your saying IF WB comes here it's a 1st round knockout (as oppose to not making the playoffs at all without him)
Are you saying FVV, Conley, Goran can carry the knicks into the 2nd round or further by themselves.
Why is it you care so much about preserving cap space when the knicks can't get anyone worthy to sign here
Did you see the bold? Why give up picks, players if we can get someone in FA? Do not see how you concluded my main concern was that I am worried about preserving CAP space?
Westbrook and his contract is what teams usually get assets for taking on. Not give up assets. If OKC or Houston is willing to give us assets for taking on their contracts, I am all for it. If not, there are a lot of other options that will probably get us the same result.
fwk00 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
We're don't have nearly as many assets as we had when we built that squad Woody built. That was a good stretch when we hit on a good majority of our picks. David Lee,
Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari etc. Heck, even Landry Fields was a valued prospect. And they hadn't squandered all of their draft picks. This squad isn't their. It's at least a year or two away.Let's just play with a few ideas.
Prioritize signing Harrell or Wood.
What's Minny want for Beasley? (our trade exception and a future second-rounder?) (S&T Pinson?) or trade for Hield
Westbrook and House for Randle, Ellington, Payton, DSJ, Knox
I think all this stuff is doable more or less. I'm not seeing major youth degradation.
I'm not seeing draft pick depletion.
Pretty strong first and second units to my eye.
Doesn't that leave a decent team before even signing another FA (beside Harrell)?
Not sure what Houston's situation is in terms of coach and GM, but I think you'll have to throw in a first-round pick. I'm not sure what Beasley's market is now, but isn't unrestricted. That deal has a few moving parts that would need to be resolved. I've seen it mentioned that Wood's market is somewhere around the mid-level. How much would the Knicks need to overpay to make Detroit buckle. None of these moves are easy to map out. They might be doable, but that doesn't mean realistic.
But if it were about helping Houston clear cap space and getting an extra asset out of it for us, then by all means. At least an extra pick or a promising long-term useful player could be a step towards a future championship roster.
fwk00 wrote:I don't know. The more I see the same responses to fast-track improvement the more I think we all suffer from Stockholm syndrome or something.Again I ask, what's the end goal? Continue to pursue short term fixes that leads to a two year run of first round playoff exits, or try to build something to sustain long term playoff appearances and hopefully a championship contender? And even if we decide to continue this unsuccessful strategy of chasing stars, is Westbrook really the type of star you really want to chase? I guarantee there will be much more desirable options down the road (if that's the route we want to go) if we wait.The Happy path thinking is something like we sign FVV then Giannis decides he wants to play for the Knicks, and...
There's the groupthink crowd who believe Rose and Thibs and co. are only going to sign and trade for their dinner guests - CP3, Melo, and their toadies.
And then there's the "process" group who still believe DSJ has a chance, that Knox is a keeper, and if only the right guru arrives...
And then there's reality. We finally have some desirable assets and many teams want to shed some talented but unwelcome-back players who under normal circumstances the Knicks would have zero chance at acquiring.
It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
Westbrook, like Melo before him is not, nor should be sold as a savior. Melo for the fist 5-6 years did his part but Knicks failed to construct a team capable. I don’t care if you bought in Giannis tormorrow as a free agent we’d barely sniff the playoffs.
Knicks are not winning a chip in the next 3 years. Unless we can draft, trade and sign a free agent to accomplish the trifecta of a dynamic duo or a big three.
Westbrook is still a force but tell me who surrounds him, what is our youth and development, and perhaps we can truly have a qualified discussion. Bringing Westbrook alone and trading picks and youth for him is not logical.
ramtour420 wrote:Noone wants Westbrook the player. What I want is Westbrook the Albatross contract, and to get rid of that Houston would have to include a pick.
You would take Westbrook just to take one of their $hitty picks? Ah hell no to that.
I would rather see if we can buy one of those picks. 3 Years with that god awful contract and attitude with no good way to build around him because he doesn’t shoot nor play defense in a league begging for efficient shooters and perimeter defenders.
BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
We're don't have nearly as many assets as we had when we built that squad Woody built. That was a good stretch when we hit on a good majority of our picks. David Lee,
Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari etc. Heck, even Landry Fields was a valued prospect. And they hadn't squandered all of their draft picks. This squad isn't their. It's at least a year or two away.Let's just play with a few ideas.
Prioritize signing Harrell or Wood.
What's Minny want for Beasley? (our trade exception and a future second-rounder?) (S&T Pinson?) or trade for Hield
Westbrook and House for Randle, Ellington, Payton, DSJ, Knox
I think all this stuff is doable more or less. I'm not seeing major youth degradation.
I'm not seeing draft pick depletion.
Pretty strong first and second units to my eye.
Doesn't that leave a decent team before even signing another FA (beside Harrell)?
Not sure what Houston's situation is in terms of coach and GM, but I think you'll have to throw in a first-round pick. I'm not sure what Beasley's market is now, but isn't unrestricted. That deal has a few moving parts that would need to be resolved. I've seen it mentioned that Wood's market is somewhere around the mid-level. How much would the Knicks need to overpay to make Detroit buckle. None of these moves are easy to map out. They might be doable, but that doesn't mean realistic.
I think this is the disconnect. I don't think the FO would trade a pick - certainly not a first-rounder. And if you believe other posters, they think a pick might be coming our way.
Westbrook I think is a player there for anyone's best offer with that offer not having to be very good. This is even Alan Hahn's belief - Houston will take what they get and be grateful.
Beasley is a RFA who I think Minny would move in a sign and trade.
Wood or Harrell is simply a bidding war. The Clips being so ham-strung in terms of picks might do a sign and trade for one of the Dallas picks. Might be worth it.
What I don't understand about the objections to, say, Westbrook (but it could be any number of post-peak names) is that if we surround him with some reasonable assets Thibs should be able to get us to the playoffs. Once that winning habit starts kicking in and although Westbrook might begin a decline, we would still have a decent core of players and picks going forward.
Can anyone describe how two or three years from now Mitch, Barrett, Frankie, the next three Knicks best picks, and whoever we sign and resign will ALL suddenly forget how to play basketball?
fwk00 wrote:I look at it like this, peak Westbrook was 2016-17. 28 years old, played 81 games, averaged 31+ppg, 10+ assists, 10+ rebs, was league MVP. That Westbrook had Oladipo, Steven Adams, all-defense Andre Roberson and Kanter off the bench averaging 14 ppg, 7 rebs playing 24 mpg. Westbrook led that squad to 47 wins and a first round playoff exit. That was prime Westbrook at his career best. How much "winning" would you expect 32 year old Westbrook to accomplish here? Maybe a couple of wins over .500?BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
We're don't have nearly as many assets as we had when we built that squad Woody built. That was a good stretch when we hit on a good majority of our picks. David Lee,
Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari etc. Heck, even Landry Fields was a valued prospect. And they hadn't squandered all of their draft picks. This squad isn't their. It's at least a year or two away.Let's just play with a few ideas.
Prioritize signing Harrell or Wood.
What's Minny want for Beasley? (our trade exception and a future second-rounder?) (S&T Pinson?) or trade for Hield
Westbrook and House for Randle, Ellington, Payton, DSJ, Knox
I think all this stuff is doable more or less. I'm not seeing major youth degradation.
I'm not seeing draft pick depletion.
Pretty strong first and second units to my eye.
Doesn't that leave a decent team before even signing another FA (beside Harrell)?
Not sure what Houston's situation is in terms of coach and GM, but I think you'll have to throw in a first-round pick. I'm not sure what Beasley's market is now, but isn't unrestricted. That deal has a few moving parts that would need to be resolved. I've seen it mentioned that Wood's market is somewhere around the mid-level. How much would the Knicks need to overpay to make Detroit buckle. None of these moves are easy to map out. They might be doable, but that doesn't mean realistic.
I think this is the disconnect. I don't think the FO would trade a pick - certainly not a first-rounder. And if you believe other posters, they think a pick might be coming our way.
Westbrook I think is a player there for anyone's best offer with that offer not having to be very good. This is even Alan Hahn's belief - Houston will take what they get and be grateful.
Beasley is a RFA who I think Minny would move in a sign and trade.
Wood or Harrell is simply a bidding war. The Clips being so ham-strung in terms of picks might do a sign and trade for one of the Dallas picks. Might be worth it.
What I don't understand about the objections to, say, Westbrook (but it could be any number of post-peak names) is that if we surround him with some reasonable assets Thibs should be able to get us to the playoffs. Once that winning habit starts kicking in and although Westbrook might begin a decline, we would still have a decent core of players and picks going forward.
Can anyone describe how two or three years from now Mitch, Barrett, Frankie, the next three Knicks best picks, and whoever we sign and resign will ALL suddenly forget how to play basketball?
I think we should continue to develop the young core, continue accumulating young talent and assets, THEN look at a free agent (hopefully younger then 32 years old) to team with the core and (hopefully) make a move in the standings that will be long term.
fwk00 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:fwk00 wrote:It sure looks to me like we *could* assemble a Knicks squad that resembles Woody's best squad. Do we really say no to that?
We're don't have nearly as many assets as we had when we built that squad Woody built. That was a good stretch when we hit on a good majority of our picks. David Lee,
Channing Frye, Wilson Chandler, Gallinari etc. Heck, even Landry Fields was a valued prospect. And they hadn't squandered all of their draft picks. This squad isn't their. It's at least a year or two away.Let's just play with a few ideas.
Prioritize signing Harrell or Wood.
What's Minny want for Beasley? (our trade exception and a future second-rounder?) (S&T Pinson?) or trade for Hield
Westbrook and House for Randle, Ellington, Payton, DSJ, Knox
I think all this stuff is doable more or less. I'm not seeing major youth degradation.
I'm not seeing draft pick depletion.
Pretty strong first and second units to my eye.
Doesn't that leave a decent team before even signing another FA (beside Harrell)?
Not sure what Houston's situation is in terms of coach and GM, but I think you'll have to throw in a first-round pick. I'm not sure what Beasley's market is now, but isn't unrestricted. That deal has a few moving parts that would need to be resolved. I've seen it mentioned that Wood's market is somewhere around the mid-level. How much would the Knicks need to overpay to make Detroit buckle. None of these moves are easy to map out. They might be doable, but that doesn't mean realistic.
I think this is the disconnect. I don't think the FO would trade a pick - certainly not a first-rounder. And if you believe other posters, they think a pick might be coming our way.
Westbrook I think is a player there for anyone's best offer with that offer not having to be very good. This is even Alan Hahn's belief - Houston will take what they get and be grateful.
Beasley is a RFA who I think Minny would move in a sign and trade.
Wood or Harrell is simply a bidding war. The Clips being so ham-strung in terms of picks might do a sign and trade for one of the Dallas picks. Might be worth it.
What I don't understand about the objections to, say, Westbrook (but it could be any number of post-peak names) is that if we surround him with some reasonable assets Thibs should be able to get us to the playoffs. Once that winning habit starts kicking in and although Westbrook might begin a decline, we would still have a decent core of players and picks going forward.
Can anyone describe how two or three years from now Mitch, Barrett, Frankie, the next three Knicks best picks, and whoever we sign and resign will ALL suddenly forget how to play basketball?
Do not want to waste money on Harrell. Just give Mitch those minutes. Wood makes sense, but even he has risk. He's only had one good spurt of reliable stretch play. I'm not sure what Beasley's situation is going forward, so let's take him off the table for now. As for Westbrook, he already is in decline. And that roster still isn't guaranteed to win anything.
Allanfan20 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:Noone wants Westbrook the player. What I want is Westbrook the Albatross contract, and to get rid of that Houston would have to include a pick.You would take Westbrook just to take one of their $hitty picks? Ah hell no to that.
I would rather see if we can buy one of those picks. 3 Years with that god awful contract and attitude with no good way to build around him because he doesn’t shoot nor play defense in a league begging for efficient shooters and perimeter defenders.
Well their picks are crappy now, with all the success MDA and Harden had. Now MDA is gone, and their future is not so certain. They might go full rebuild in which case they are not going to include picks.
There is always a scenario where the new coach fails, clashes with Harden about his lackluster D. Then they end up sucking. There are always injuries too. Meaning the pick might not be terrible.
What might happen, as unlikely as it is, is RW comes here and Thibs brings out the best of him like he did with his other all-star PG that could not shot nor play D. Now I know that's a lot of ifs.
But we would be buying low( negative value even) if RW makes any marginal improvement compared to his last season we might be able to trade his almost expiring for some more assets.
Not giving up assets in the process is key. No picks, no youth
ramtour420 wrote:Essentially, you're asking Houston to just give us Westbrook for nothing? They are not going into full rebuild with Harden, especially when you look at all the picks they gave up to get Westbrook. No way they aren't going to try to recoup some of those picks if they trade him.Allanfan20 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:Noone wants Westbrook the player. What I want is Westbrook the Albatross contract, and to get rid of that Houston would have to include a pick.You would take Westbrook just to take one of their $hitty picks? Ah hell no to that.
I would rather see if we can buy one of those picks. 3 Years with that god awful contract and attitude with no good way to build around him because he doesn’t shoot nor play defense in a league begging for efficient shooters and perimeter defenders.
Well their picks are crappy now, with all the success MDA and Harden had. Now MDA is gone, and their future is not so certain. They might go full rebuild in which case they are not going to include picks.
There is always a scenario where the new coach fails, clashes with Harden about his lackluster D. Then they end up sucking. There are always injuries too. Meaning the pick might not be terrible.
What might happen, as unlikely as it is, is RW comes here and Thibs brings out the best of him like he did with his other all-star PG that could not shot nor play D. Now I know that's a lot of ifs.
But we would be buying low( negative value even) if RW makes any marginal improvement compared to his last season we might be able to trade his almost expiring for some more assets.Not giving up assets in the process is key. No picks, no youth
Owner said he is not going anywhere.
HofstraBBall wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsspor...Owner said he is not going anywhere.
Yeah, let's wait until next season then. I predict that midway through their record is gonna suck, and one or both of Westbrook and/or Harden demand a trade. Then they will get even less value back. I can wait...