Knicks · This is the year to trade up (page 1)
This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.
GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.
Naw, were going to have more kids going to the G-League and as you mentioned, there's still the international kids. Also, this draft is too mediocre. Next year's draft is supposed to be a banger.
BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.Naw, were going to have more kids going to the G-League and as you mentioned, there's still the international kids. Also, this draft is too mediocre. Next year's draft is supposed to be a banger.
Mentioned next season. G league with 10 people in the stands. You hear about great "practice players". Who dont show it in actual games, under pressure. We're going to get a lot of kids who have played in rec league like conditions before being drafted. After being drafted.
Not predicting anything. Just dont see players who will have spent most of their pre-NBA time playing in empty arenas,gyms, being as tested.
GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.Naw, were going to have more kids going to the G-League and as you mentioned, there's still the international kids. Also, this draft is too mediocre. Next year's draft is supposed to be a banger.
Mentioned next season. G league with 10 people in the stands. You hear about great "practice players". Who dont show it in actual games, under pressure. We're going to get a lot of kids who have played in rec league like conditions before being drafted. After being drafted.
Not predicting anything. Just dont see players who will have spent most of their pre-NBA time playing in empty arenas,gyms, being as tested.
That's just part of the new normal. We had guys in the NBA like TJ Warren who took it to another level with no crowds and guys like PG who sunk. You just hope the scouts investigate and get a handle on the guys who will thrive. Also, there millions of dollars on the line, televised games, social media noise, scouts etc. These kids will still have pressure to perform. We should always have our eye on the next available superstar. This doesn't change that. But it's not like we're swimming in picks. Yeah, we're looking good compared to other years, but we're not OKC.
BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.Naw, were going to have more kids going to the G-League and as you mentioned, there's still the international kids. Also, this draft is too mediocre. Next year's draft is supposed to be a banger.
Mentioned next season. G league with 10 people in the stands. You hear about great "practice players". Who dont show it in actual games, under pressure. We're going to get a lot of kids who have played in rec league like conditions before being drafted. After being drafted.
Not predicting anything. Just dont see players who will have spent most of their pre-NBA time playing in empty arenas,gyms, being as tested.
That's just part of the new normal. We had guys in the NBA like TJ Warren who took it to another level with no crowds and guys like PG who sunk. You just hope the scouts investigate and get a handle on the guys who will thrive. Also, there millions of dollars on the line, televised games, social media noise, scouts etc. These kids will still have pressure to perform. We should always have our eye on the next available superstar. This doesn't change that. But it's not like we're swimming in picks. Yeah, we're looking good compared to other years, but we're not OKC.
We've seen what I mentioned earlier as "bubble stars", but Warren is a veteran. The pressure of playing in front of crowds is more immediate. In 3-4 years the crowds will start coming back. For some players, large crowds will be a new experience. Going to be interesting to see which players can handle the transition.
GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.
This year? You trade up when you have a player targeted. Who is worth trading away assets for? And what assets are you talking about?
GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.
You usually speak intelligently. Why would anyone trade "up" in a draft where its a total crap-shoot? Honestly.
If you listen to Hahn, he's good with trading OUT for anyone who looks like a starter.
fwk00 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.You usually speak intelligently. Why would anyone trade "up" in a draft where its a total crap-shoot? Honestly.
If you listen to Hahn, he's good with trading OUT for anyone who looks like a starter.
You're right, I usually speak intelligently...
All drafts are crap shoots. There are some players worth trading up for. If a deal is doable, good for the team, Rose should go for it. Future drafts are going to be even more of a crap shoot because of the "new normal".
unstopaball12 wrote:Best trade offer I'd do is 8th pick, Frank, 27th pick and cash for 1st or 2nd pick. Use that to draft ball or wiseman
I could possibly see doing it for Ball, but why give up all those assets for Wiseman? We already have Mitch and center isn't really a position of need. If Wiseman drops to 8, I can understand drafting him if you think he's the best player available. I like Okongwu better, but I there are solid arguments for both players. But giving up so many assets for a player who doesn't address any of this roster's deficiencies seems like a bad move. This draft is meh, so I'd rather trade down.
BigDaddyG wrote:unstopaball12 wrote:Best trade offer I'd do is 8th pick, Frank, 27th pick and cash for 1st or 2nd pick. Use that to draft ball or wisemanI could possibly see doing it for Ball, but why give up all those assets for Wiseman? We already have Mitch and center isn't really a position of need. If Wiseman drops to 8, I can understand drafting him if you think he's the best player available. I like Okongwu better, but I there are solid arguments for both players. But giving up so many assets for a player who doesn't address any of this roster's deficiencies seems like a bad move. This draft is meh, so I'd rather trade down.
Wiseman and mitch can Co-exist. This trade also puts us in a position to trade Randle.
I love Frank, but this trade helps build a solid foundation for our team.
GustavBahler wrote:fwk00 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.You usually speak intelligently. Why would anyone trade "up" in a draft where its a total crap-shoot? Honestly.
If you listen to Hahn, he's good with trading OUT for anyone who looks like a starter.
You're right, I usually speak intelligently...
All drafts are crap shoots. There are some players worth trading up for. If a deal is doable, good for the team, Rose should go for it. Future drafts are going to be even more of a crap shoot because of the "new normal".
This isn't much different than what teams had to go through when high schoolers were draft eligible. Yeah, they played in front of crowds in highschool games and AAU tournaments, but that level of pressure doesn't compare to college and the pros. That just meant scouts had to dig deeper into measurements, analytics, interviews etc. The landscape may change and the value of picks have dropped of bit, but that doesn't mean a drop-off in talent. Also, look at the top players in this year's draft. Wiseman was suspended after playing a few games against cream puffs. Edwards team sucked and the majority of his games wouldn't be classified as pressure cookers. Ball played across the ball and the level of scrutiny wasn't nearly as harsh as it would've been if he went to UCLA. There will always be question marks. There will always be players who are overrated and underrated. Picks still have value and it's too early to start cashing them in before there is a clear understanding of how things will be impacted in the future.
unstopaball12 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:unstopaball12 wrote:Best trade offer I'd do is 8th pick, Frank, 27th pick and cash for 1st or 2nd pick. Use that to draft ball or wisemanI could possibly see doing it for Ball, but why give up all those assets for Wiseman? We already have Mitch and center isn't really a position of need. If Wiseman drops to 8, I can understand drafting him if you think he's the best player available. I like Okongwu better, but I there are solid arguments for both players. But giving up so many assets for a player who doesn't address any of this roster's deficiencies seems like a bad move. This draft is meh, so I'd rather trade down.
Wiseman and mitch can Co-exist. This trade also puts us in a position to trade Randle.
I love Frank, but this trade helps build a solid foundation for our team.
How can you be sure they can coexist? Wiseman can't really guard the perimeter and neither player has shown a semblance of a face-up game or the ability to thrive in the highpost. Worst cas scenario is the Knicks wasted all of those assets for a backup player. Doesn't really seem worth it.
unstopaball12 wrote:Best trade offer I'd do is 8th pick, Frank, 27th pick and cash for 1st or 2nd pick. Use that to draft ball or wiseman
thats the only move i see
BigDaddyG wrote:unstopaball12 wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:unstopaball12 wrote:Best trade offer I'd do is 8th pick, Frank, 27th pick and cash for 1st or 2nd pick. Use that to draft ball or wisemanI could possibly see doing it for Ball, but why give up all those assets for Wiseman? We already have Mitch and center isn't really a position of need. If Wiseman drops to 8, I can understand drafting him if you think he's the best player available. I like Okongwu better, but I there are solid arguments for both players. But giving up so many assets for a player who doesn't address any of this roster's deficiencies seems like a bad move. This draft is meh, so I'd rather trade down.
Wiseman and mitch can Co-exist. This trade also puts us in a position to trade Randle.
I love Frank, but this trade helps build a solid foundation for our team.
How can you be sure they can coexist? Wiseman can't really guard the perimeter and neither player has shown a semblance of a face-up game or the ability to thrive in the highpost. Worst cas scenario is the Knicks wasted all of those assets for a backup player. Doesn't really seem worth it.
Yeah I agree. I would just stay put here. Ball and Wiseman and even Edwards and way too unknown to give up much for. If everyone views the draft as a weak draft then nobody is really going to much much in order for them to trade up to our 8th pick. We might as well pick who we want no matter where they are projected to go.
I don’t see one player in the draft who is 100% guaranteed to be a star.
TripleThreat wrote:unstopaball12 wrote:Wiseman and mitch can Co-exist. This trade also puts us in a position to trade Randle.Randle has a 2021 buyout of 4 million
That's cap poison with the projected hit to BRI. From what I'm hearing, Silver is asking Rich Cho ( who is the exact right person to ask) to do a 5 year projection on the league's cap situation outside of guys already working for league administration. That's really not good.
What's going unspoken is that a lot of teams with owners getting hit hard in the pandemic are doing scouting on high injury risk players. Teams are incentivized now to sign a guy to get to the salary floor then use the Chris Bosh Rule to medical them out of the league. By foisting the procedural burden on the player ( the insurance company will fight both the team, the league and the player, but the player has the biggest weight on them to assure the settlement), they are using the same playbook that let the Texas Rangers cheat ARod out of a decent chunk of money.
That 4 million is completely toxic on a cap sheet. Teams don't know where the tax line will fall. Some teams will want the tax line to stay the same. The Knicks have every incentive to want no adjustment to the tax line. The problem is it's hard to justify moving the tax line if the league chooses to stabilize the cap to the same amount this past season. The purpose of the tax line was to force teams to assess risk vs reward against the leagues projected finances. Many teams bet on something around seven percent growth of the cap annually but they bet wrong since no one could predict the pandemic. Teams who have been suffering a while like the Hawks aren't going to want to see a bailout for teams who bet wrong. Since the system turned a team like the Hawks into a farm team for the more marketable franchises.No functional front office will trade for Randle unless he's salary filler in a much bigger trade where that 4 million buyout is accounted for as a net negative.
The league will force the assorted brands to develop a semi-professional league outside of the G League structure if the college game collapses. The college game situation is complicated in that you can't just have the players come to campus. They are still students and must be held to, from an optics level, the same conditions as other students who can or can't come on campus. You may have just seen the death of the more niche sports all across the US. The NBA does not want a structure where waves of 100-150 formerly college bound players are now gaining some kind of actual league service time. For a team to retain a players rights, he has to be accruing some type of service time. This is why the Heat were able to get Hassan Whiteside off of the Grizzlies D/G League team. He wasn't a two way player. He wasn't a draftee stashed onto that roster. The G League does have a rule that players WITHOUT draft eligibility can't be called up by any team. Then this leads to the issue of current draft eligibility standards. And this seeps into the issue of G League waivers.
Waiver circumvention is already a light issue in the G League but it will become a huge one if teams can weaponize their two way contracts to subvert the traditional draft process.
Also if you look at the ASM/Andy Miller scandal, the NBA wants plausible deniability when Adidas pays cash under the table to players. They can't do that if all these undrafted guys are on G League rosters.
The collapse of the college game is not an immediate boon to the G League. There are lots of hurdles there first. The system was never designed for the risk of the entire loss of the college game.
The Knicks should not trade up. The brands have a massive incentive to find a system for normally college bound players to play somehow. Also a non college system might work better. You'll have full time training and against top tier competition all the time. The pandemic might actually produce better prepared rookies into the league over the long haul.
I thought you already mentioned that the $4M could be stretched for $1.3... that's toxic?
BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fwk00 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.You usually speak intelligently. Why would anyone trade "up" in a draft where its a total crap-shoot? Honestly.
If you listen to Hahn, he's good with trading OUT for anyone who looks like a starter.
You're right, I usually speak intelligently...
All drafts are crap shoots. There are some players worth trading up for. If a deal is doable, good for the team, Rose should go for it. Future drafts are going to be even more of a crap shoot because of the "new normal".
This isn't much different than what teams had to go through when high schoolers were draft eligible. Yeah, they played in front of crowds in highschool games and AAU tournaments, but that level of pressure doesn't compare to college and the pros. That just meant scouts had to dig deeper into measurements, analytics, interviews etc. The landscape may change and the value of picks have dropped of bit, but that doesn't mean a drop-off in talent. Also, look at the top players in this year's draft. Wiseman was suspended after playing a few games against cream puffs. Edwards team sucked and the majority of his games wouldn't be classified as pressure cookers. Ball played across the ball and the level of scrutiny wasn't nearly as harsh as it would've been if he went to UCLA. There will always be question marks. There will always be players who are overrated and underrated. Picks still have value and it's too early to start cashing them in before there is a clear understanding of how things will be impacted in the future.
Unless crowds are welcomed back a lot sooner, you will see players who have gone from college to the pros, playing for a handful of spectators, at a time. Im sure you've been to MSG plenty of times. Remember the deafening sound of the crowd, as you walked into the arena?
We are going to have NBA vets who have never experienced that. If we dont bring crowds back for a few years. How will these players handle a packed stadium? Easier to drain a jumper in a near empty arena. Thats why Id rather trade future picks, for a shot at players in the next couple of years, who have at least some experience dealing with 10-20k fans screaming in their ears.
For every NBA player out there, there are quite a few more who are just as skilled, but cant deliver
in the pressure cooker environmemt of a packed arena. We wont know who can and cant handle that added pressure for years.
Teams normallly draft with that question already answered. Those kids who made the jump from high school, were considered more talented than the average draft pick. Advanced student, if you will. Not all college players are that good.
At the same time we have seen Knox play in full arenas.
So much to this. I read Paul George battled depression being in the bubble. A guy like Lebron or Jimmy BUtler might thrive on the focus of it and it translates. I don’t want to bash on PG but ALL OF THIS has affected players in different ways.
Your point is considerable and should be a concern. The crushing pressure of being that young and a new professional is staggering. This kids grow up and say the same shyt “Its always been my dream”........Idolizing KOBE, Lebron, while everybody idolizes you at an early age. Family finances might be vastly different for them, dealing with injury, etc, etc. For ever Kobe there are how many Triers? Kid was on the cover of magazines in the 8th grade but stardom did not materialize. Eddy Curry reached and succeeded only to find his life a mess trying to please all. Players put on an arrogant patina to shield themselves but they are scared.
THis covid potentially has many effects on so many kids, and certainly the small handful that are valid NBA prospects.
They will have to get used to it somehow to succeed.
GustavBahler wrote:fwk00 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:The kids in HS now, who will be playing in college. How many games will they actually play in HS? College, with Covid in mind? Will it be in an empty stadium, gym? With much less pressure? We're in uncharted territory here.This draft has prospects who have played in front of large crowds. Who knows what the future holds for the players who follow them, over the next few years? Unless they're from another country.
Wouldnt mind Rose trading future picks for a shot at a real game changer, with a pre-covid resume.
This draft or the next.You usually speak intelligently. Why would anyone trade "up" in a draft where its a total crap-shoot? Honestly.
If you listen to Hahn, he's good with trading OUT for anyone who looks like a starter.
You're right, I usually speak intelligently...
All drafts are crap shoots. There are some players worth trading up for. If a deal is doable, good for the team, Rose should go for it. Future drafts are going to be even more of a crap shoot because of the "new normal".
I guess its hard to act based on what we predict the future will look like or how the college seasons will play out. Truth is we just do not know.
We could have a vaccine and this could quickly go away. I pray. Or you could be right and this is the norm for a long time.
But lets assume that things will continue as they are. If future drafts are going to have more risk, would it not be smarter to have more picks rather than less in order to mitigate that risk. I do see your point though. If future drafts are going to be riskier than why not trade them for a better chance at getting a sound pick this year. Problem for me is that I just do not see anyone in this years draft that has emphatically separated themselves from the rest of the top 15. Or that is a guaranteed generational talent. If you look at what some project the Knicks to draft, (Vassell, Okoro, Okongwu or Hayes), there can be a case made that they are not levels below Lamelo, Edwards or Wiseman. (As good as I think they are). I think Avdija has All Star potential, reminds me of Luca and is the only player I feel may be a franchise type player. However, I do not think it would be smart to give up a whole bunch of assets to take the risk he may not be. I feel the same about Edwards. He is the best in the draft but I would hate to see what we would have to give up in order to get him. And once again, he is not a sure thing and not a guarantee. I would actually like to trade down. As mentioned, a good way to mitigate uncertainty in the draft is by having multiple picks/chances at the so called crap shoot. And I think this is one of the most level drafts in quite some time. We just do not know for sure who is going to be great or who is going to be added to the long list of busts. This year's draft seems to have even more questions marks.
But fair enough. Your prediction is just as good as mine or any other "experts" out there. And hell, it's not like par for the course attitude has been working. Who would you trade our 8th for and what would you be willing to give up? As mentioned, I like Avdija. Would maybe trade up for him if we only had to give up our 8th. Frank or Dennis and a future 2nd.
Our recent foray to drafting and developing has been mixed.
Not sure there is one right way or not. When things are not working we look for change. We do that frequently as any franchise. Has any team has a many FO and coaches in the last 20 years?
“Make me wanna holla, throw up both my hands!” We do.