Knicks · Interesting Alan Hahn info: NOT drafting Okoro, NOT signing VanVleet (page 1)
https://www.thestrick.land/podcasts/zsj5...
Very interesting info that clearers up some stuff, plus some surprises
-Seemed adamant that we’re not drafting Okoro (didn’t finish explaining why, but went on to a tale about shooting, so maybe that’s why)
-Adamant that we’re not signing VanVleet, and likely VanVleet’s recent comments were just trying to get the Raptors to increase their offer
-Fiz realized early that Randle could not be the main guy, and Randle was not pleased which is why he looked so bad early
-Randle & Payton did freeze out RJ though Randle’s hostility waned towards the end of the season
-The reason for the Frank hostility from the coaches or org was that he refused to listen or compromise- the org want him to be a glue guy, multi-positional swing player, who defends 1-3, but Frank refuses to listen and insists on being the PG and main facilitator. Said his other 4 teammates didn’t like playing with him because they had no idea what he was going to do (because he’s not a good facilitator or starting PG material).
-doesn’t think we end up with Westbrook, thinks the Hornets will trade for him (MJ connection) (here’s hoping)
-Doesn’t really believe CP3 to Suns, thinks if the Clips and Lakers can’t land him, only way he ends up in NY is if he decided he wants to be here for his future career or wants to live here, or his connection with Rose etc
-Other teams would target and say to target Knox and it completely shattered his confidence, led to like an imposter syndrome.
For me, the VanVleet info was disappointing, as it seems to signal that there’s nothing particularly exciting coming via free agency, I’m preparing myself for things like: MKG, DJ Augustine, just marginal bench role players really. I’m worried that once again we’re not going to have decent PG. Hope this doesn’t make us panic and go for Westbrook
I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
smackeddog wrote:Interesting and enjoyable Strickland podcast with Alan Hahn:https://www.thestrick.land/podcasts/zsj5...
-The reason for the Frank hostility from the coaches or org was that he refused to listen or compromise- the org want him to be a glue guy, multi-positional swing player, who defends 1-3, but Frank refuses to listen and insists on being the PG and main facilitator. Said his other 4 teammates didn’t like playing with him because they had no idea what he was going to do (because he’s not a good facilitator or starting PG material).
Didn't we see Fiz try Frank as a "3" during postionless experiments and didn't RJ say how much he liked playing with Frank. I doubt the #8 pick, especially an underperforming one, has enough clout to dictate much to the franchise. There may be some truth to what Hahn is saying, but alot doesn't really jibe. But it does explain Perry's thought process (Mudiay, Burke etc.), who
smackeddog wrote:-Doesn’t really believe CP3 to Suns, thinks if the Clips and Lakers can’t land him, only way he ends up in NY is if he decided he wants to be here for his future career or wants to live here, or his connection with Rose etc
CP3 to the Suns is the only move that makes sense from a player/contract perspective. I don't see both LA teams having anything OKC wants or needs. I agree, the NY thing never made sense on the face of it.
Not sure I agree (or want to??LOL) about Frank. Fiz had him tucked in the corner and passing early in the offense. Under Miller he got more aggressive on offense but he seemed like a playmaker first. Didn’t we all yell “Shoot it frankie!!” His +- was usually good. Was it Mook or Randle that were confused about what he was doing? Did Frank freeze out RJ?
I am totally on board with a coach defining a players role and taking him out if he dos not abide. New staff thru and thru. If you got a role you execute or sit. If Thibs is not confident in the kid then move him off the roster. Frank is on his 5th coach walking into his 4th season.
Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
If Frank wants to play PG he will be playing in Europe, because not 1 NBA team is letting him be a primary facilitator. He has no dribble and has mediocre court vision. The guy could carve out a bench role as a 3 and D wing that's it.
Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
I think Okoro would be the best player on the board but I get why they would pass. He is similar to Barrett and this team has no shooting
Nalod wrote:
Not sure I agree (or want to??LOL) about Frank. Fiz had him tucked in the corner and passing early in the offense. Under Miller he got more aggressive on offense but he seemed like a playmaker first. Didn’t we all yell “Shoot it frankie!!” His +- was usually good. Was it Mook or Randle that were confused about what he was doing? Did Frank freeze out RJ?I am totally on board with a coach defining a players role and taking him out if he dos not abide. New staff thru and thru. If you got a role you execute or sit. If Thibs is not confident in the kid then move him off the roster. Frank is on his 5th coach walking into his 4th season.
Perry isn't high on Frank. This isn't a conspiracy. Perry's past moves say as much. Frank has been trash more often than not, but I still believe he can be a primary or secondary playmaker, depending on the unit he's on. Perry sees things one way and Frank sees it another. It happens with players, coaches and FOs. But the disconnect here is the idea of Frank running up into Fiz's office, knocking off his glasses, smacking Natasha on the butt and yelling 'settle down nerd, I'm the #1 facilitator
now!'. He's the 8th pick and he's been struggling for most his career. You mean to tell me he's carrying that big a juice card? The coach can pencil him in as a PF and Frank will have no choice but to like it.
BRIGGS wrote:Kind of why I like Nesmith —/he’s a good athlete but A great shooter. It’s like drafting allan houston
From everything I have seen, the 2 are not similar at all. I agree the mid range game absolutely is badly needed.
Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
If its true, Im very surprised. You add that to Frank mostly training in the off-season, in France, instead of with the team, as they requested. His reluctance to play pick-up BBall in the summer with his peers. As his first NBA coach (Hornacek) recommended. And now, not accepting his role on the team. Shows a player with diva-like behavior, without the requisite talent. If this story is true.
His teammates started freezing Frank out last season, because they knew he wasnt going to move the needle. Thats the part that, if true makes me want the Knicks to close the chapter on Frank. He hasnt moved the needle on offense, but going into year 4, he's still acting like the heir apparent.
Hahn works for MSG. Doubt we would be hearing about this if they werent ready to move on. My guess is that Rose and Thibs want to give Smith jr a shot at PG (or backup PG) over Frank. And Frank is resisting. Dont believe this info leaking was by accident. Might be a way to prepare fans. Frank has a lot of Knicks fans who support him. Very surprised, if true.
BigDaddyG wrote:Nalod wrote:
Not sure I agree (or want to??LOL) about Frank. Fiz had him tucked in the corner and passing early in the offense. Under Miller he got more aggressive on offense but he seemed like a playmaker first. Didn’t we all yell “Shoot it frankie!!” His +- was usually good. Was it Mook or Randle that were confused about what he was doing? Did Frank freeze out RJ?I am totally on board with a coach defining a players role and taking him out if he dos not abide. New staff thru and thru. If you got a role you execute or sit. If Thibs is not confident in the kid then move him off the roster. Frank is on his 5th coach walking into his 4th season.
Perry isn't high on Frank. This isn't a conspiracy. Perry's past moves say as much. Frank has been trash more often than not, but I still believe he can be a primary or secondary playmaker, depending on the unit he's on. Perry sees things one way and Frank sees it another. It happens with players, coaches and FOs. But the disconnect here is the idea of Frank running up into Fiz's office, knocking off his glasses, smacking Natasha on the butt and yelling 'settle down nerd, I'm the #1 facilitator
now!'. He's the 8th pick and he's been struggling for most his career. You mean to tell me he's carrying that big a juice card? The coach can pencil him in as a PF and Frank will have no choice but to like it.
thanks for sharing
i am glad we are not getting FVV. No disrespect to him, but i don't think he turns around a bad team as much as elevate a good team. And i'm not a college savant but Okoro's offense and size worry me
the most shocking comments were with Frank. frankly i'm not sure i fully believe them or whether this is some company spin (aka hatchet job) because of an impending (and unpopular) trade.
Frank is right about playing PG. His best attribute is on ball defense, defending PnR etc. Why take away his size advantage having him guard catch and shoot 3s?? Why stick him a corner to shoot? that was dumb basketball. Having him play some JAG, glue role means a 1-3 career max; any real career will be at PG IF he develops
if he can't develop more offense from the pg position, then he's not meant for the NBA -- and i'm not talking a lot of offense, but enough to contribute and to help his team by forcing the opponent to guard him. That development is a coach's role (where we have failed) AND mostly on him (where he has failed). My fingers are crossed he puts it together. if he is on the team this year (I suspect a trade is in the works from these comments), it is his last year to show something IMO
Why Perry is still part of this organization is befuddling. I mean honestly when he first came here i criticized the move and outlined all the past blunders on his watch. the response from many was to deflect all of that, saying he wasn't the man, he wasn't responsible, in short saying we hired someone who actually did nothing but merely sat in a room for teams that made mistake after mistake (of course somebody else's). IN any event his body of work here is consistent with his past experience. dumb move after dumb move. buying high and selling low, and then doubling down on past dumb moves (see Hezonja). One year total rebuild; next year stuff the roster with mediocre vets on prove it contracts taking minutes from young player development and end up with a worse draft slot
Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
ANd the Knicks have earned your trust to believe this?
GustavBahler wrote:Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
If its true, Im very surprised. You add that to Frank mostly training in the off-season, in France, instead of with the team, as they requested. His reluctance to play pick-up BBall in the summer with his peers. As his first NBA coach (Hornacek) recommended. And now, not accepting his role on the team. Shows a player with diva-like behavior, without the requisite talent. If this story is true.
His teammates started freezing Frank out last season, because they knew he wasnt going to move the needle. Thats the part that, if true makes me want the Knicks to close the chapter on Frank. He hasnt moved the needle on offense, but going into year 4, he's still acting like the heir apparent.
Hahn works for MSG. Doubt we would be hearing about this if they werent ready to move on. My guess is that Rose and Thibs want to give Smith jr a shot at PG (or backup PG) over Frank. And Frank is resisting. Dont believe this info leaking was by accident. Might be a way to prepare fans. Frank has a lot of Knicks fans who support him. Very surprised, if true.
I disagree with most of the above. There's plenty of Instagram clips of Frank working out with his "peers" in Chris Brickley's gym. True, Randle and Payton froze Frank and other players out. But I also noticed Frank develop chemistry with Portis, RJ, Mitch, Taj and Bullock. I agree that this is a strategic "leak" and it looks like they're getting ready to dump Frank. As we saw during the Mills debacle, Perry is very savvy with the media. I think diva is probably the last word I'd use to describe Frank.
BigDaddyG wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Uptown wrote:Interesting tidbits on Frank. If true, the wholesome, team first image that is portrayed takes a serious hit and I can see this regime not hesitating to move him.I think Vanvleet is in a great situation, playing in Toronto alongside Lowry. I think he gets exposed a bit if he is asked to be not only the main. ball hander and decision maker but the number 1 player on a team (he would be here). He is in a great system with a really good coach and battle tested teammates. He won't be the same player here.
I like Okoro but maybe the Knicks think his game is too similar to RJ in terms of being a physical slasher that needs to work on his shot. If the Knicks stay at 8 and Hayes is on the board, I can see them grabbing him.
If its true, Im very surprised. You add that to Frank mostly training in the off-season, in France, instead of with the team, as they requested. His reluctance to play pick-up BBall in the summer with his peers. As his first NBA coach (Hornacek) recommended. And now, not accepting his role on the team. Shows a player with diva-like behavior, without the requisite talent. If this story is true.
His teammates started freezing Frank out last season, because they knew he wasnt going to move the needle. Thats the part that, if true makes me want the Knicks to close the chapter on Frank. He hasnt moved the needle on offense, but going into year 4, he's still acting like the heir apparent.
Hahn works for MSG. Doubt we would be hearing about this if they werent ready to move on. My guess is that Rose and Thibs want to give Smith jr a shot at PG (or backup PG) over Frank. And Frank is resisting. Dont believe this info leaking was by accident. Might be a way to prepare fans. Frank has a lot of Knicks fans who support him. Very surprised, if true.
I disagree with most of the above. There's plenty of Instagram clips of Frank working out with his "peers" in Chris Brickley's gym. True, Randle and Payton froze Frank and other players out. But I also noticed Frank develop chemistry with Portis, RJ, Mitch, Taj and Bullock. I agree that this is a strategic "leak" and it looks like they're getting ready to dump Frank. As we saw during the Mills debacle, Perry is very savvy with the media. I think diva is probably the last word I'd use to describe Frank.
Im talking about the first couple of off-seasons. Why I said "mostly". He was over there more than he was in the US, with the team. Sure didnt help with his groin issues, or his offense.
Doubt Perry is driving this. Doubt he would try to move on from Frank without Rose agreeing its the right thing to do.
Unless this is something that he communicated that he desires this offseason while the FO & coaching staff have different plans. Saying his teammates didn't like him in that role would be speaking on the past experience. At the same time a new demanding Frank would be interesting to see.
smackeddog wrote:Interesting and enjoyable Strickland podcast with Alan Hahn:https://www.thestrick.land/podcasts/zsj5...
Very interesting info that clearers up some stuff, plus some surprises
-Seemed adamant that we’re not drafting Okoro (didn’t finish explaining why, but went on to a tale about shooting, so maybe that’s why)-Adamant that we’re not signing VanVleet, and likely VanVleet’s recent comments were just trying to get the Raptors to increase their offer
-Fiz realized early that Randle could not be the main guy, and Randle was not pleased which is why he looked so bad early
-Randle & Payton did freeze out RJ though Randle’s hostility waned towards the end of the season
-The reason for the Frank hostility from the coaches or org was that he refused to listen or compromise- the org want him to be a glue guy, multi-positional swing player, who defends 1-3, but Frank refuses to listen and insists on being the PG and main facilitator. Said his other 4 teammates didn’t like playing with him because they had no idea what he was going to do (because he’s not a good facilitator or starting PG material).
-doesn’t think we end up with Westbrook, thinks the Hornets will trade for him (MJ connection) (here’s hoping)
-Doesn’t really believe CP3 to Suns, thinks if the Clips and Lakers can’t land him, only way he ends up in NY is if he decided he wants to be here for his future career or wants to live here, or his connection with Rose etc
-Other teams would target and say to target Knox and it completely shattered his confidence, led to like an imposter syndrome.
For me, the VanVleet info was disappointing, as it seems to signal that there’s nothing particularly exciting coming via free agency, I’m preparing myself for things like: MKG, DJ Augustine, just marginal bench role players really. I’m worried that once again we’re not going to have decent PG. Hope this doesn’t make us panic and go for Westbrook
Thanks for the recap, much appreciated.
Would you or anyone else have a list of NY Knicks podcasts or YouTube video channels that would help me out with? I'll take a shot at adding into our mix of things we gather. Thanks
newyorknewyork wrote:No reason not to believe Hahn. But the Frank tidbit doesn't add up. If this was the case they would have moved him by now. There also isn't anything to point to that would back this up. Can't name a time when he refused lineup at other positions or play off ball. And you never see him sulking on the bench.Unless this is something that he communicated that he desires this offseason while the FO & coaching staff have different plans. Saying his teammates didn't like him in that role would be speaking on the past experience. At the same time a new demanding Frank would be interesting to see.
They’ve tried to move him each deadline and offseason but never got offered anything worth doing it.
Hahn wasn’t saying Frank was a villain or anything- he was saying both the organization and coaches have been and fault but so has Frank. He said Phil drafted him then was fired, and no one remaining knew what to do with him, starting with Hornacek. Remember when Fiz was interviewed he said Mills asked him what to do with Frank and Fiz also had no idea but sold it as “let Frank be Frank”.
Frank sees himself as a PG, and likely his agent is telling him he’s a PG (remember when he switched agents and the new one said they had to de-programme him from what the Knicks had said to him or something)- that’s not unreasonable, especially when your team seems to have no idea what to do with you for years. However I think the Knicks don’t think he can be that and want him to just be a 1-3 defender, swing man off the bench. He said if Frank would just accept that role and be good with it, he’d be fine keeping him around. I don’t think Frank’s a diva, I think he’s just been messed over by our terrible developmental and organizational malaise since he came into the league- you can see him get down or look sad or lost a lot of the time because it’s a dysfunctional relationship.
KnickDanger wrote:I like Hahn and this is all interesting but take it with a grain of salt. Assuming some of this is smoke from a (dumpster?) fire, what I read into it is a bunch of young men -- some very young -- on a rudderless ship with a rotating dysfunctional leadership. So they act out here and there. I guess there will be a distinct change in attitude when there is a clear direction given in a team voice. And winning would help. We'll see.
I agree- Hahn wasn’t throwing him under a bus, it all came about because there’s a long running joke that Hahn hates Frank (based on the way Wally and him talk about him on MSG), Hahn was explaining he didn’t hate Frank, but saying what some of the issues were (and openly accepted the Knicks had failed him too.